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What's it made of...

cs Offline edcgear

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What's it made of...
on: September 22, 2010, 03:05:24 PM
In my line of work I have a device wich can measure surface elements in metal (it's Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer). I use it in my line of work to determine types of scrap metal (stainless steel, cuprum, Ti, and various alloys)... Now I have used it to play a little...

Somewhere I have read that Victorinox uses different types of alloy and final processing on different tools, so.... I have came up with this (didn't check all the tools just 3) on my SwissChamp, and I have disregard when element is under 0,05%:

Blade:
Ni - 0,19%
Mo - 0,64%
Cr - 14,51%
Mn - 0,4%
Fe - 83,67%
Co - 0,25%
V - 0,14%

Pliers:
Ni - 0,23%
Mo - 0,3%
Cr - 13,58%
Mn - 0,44%
Fe - 84,81%
V - 0,16%

Bottle opener/large screwdriver:
Ni - 0,15%
Cr - 13,44%
Mn - 0,59%
Fe - 85,15%
V - 0,1%
Si - 0,1%

So as you can see, the mail elements Fe and Cr, are close, but minor elemts tend to vary and change...

More tests on the way....
SAM_0035.JPG
* SAM_0035.JPG (Filesize: 56.14 KB)
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nl Offline Reinier

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 03:20:58 PM
That's nice!

Do you have a CyberTool? I wonder what kind of metal the bit driver is made of (it has a different color) :D
You should seriously visit vicfan.com. All the hoopy froods are doing it.


england Offline Benner

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 03:42:03 PM
That's nice!

Do you have a CyberTool? I wonder what kind of metal the bit driver is made of (it has a different color) :D

OOoo yes!
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #3 on: September 22, 2010, 03:46:10 PM
Sorry... Next on my list is Buck X-Tract Fin

Then ST Spirit...

VIC Cybertool is on my list, but not yet (don't have it, but will buy one  :D :D )

Cheers
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nl Offline Reinier

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #4 on: September 22, 2010, 03:49:19 PM
VIC Cybertool is on my list, but not yet (don't have it, but will buy one  :D :D )

Maybe someone will send you one for free so you can analyze it ;)
You should seriously visit vicfan.com. All the hoopy froods are doing it.


cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #5 on: September 22, 2010, 03:51:48 PM
VIC Cybertool is on my list, but not yet (don't have it, but will buy one  :D :D )

Maybe someone will send you one for free so you can analyze it ;)

Well maybe... I must say that I preffer emerald translucent green.... And I'm certain that colour will affect outcome of testing....  :pok: :D ;)
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dk Offline AHB

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #6 on: September 22, 2010, 03:53:21 PM
Slow day at work Huh..?  ;) :D

Interesting stuff..  8)


england Offline Benner

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #7 on: September 22, 2010, 03:53:30 PM
Not gonna happen  :D
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #8 on: September 22, 2010, 04:00:44 PM
Not gonna happen  :D

Not even in scientific purposes?? For benefit of all mankind!!  ::) ::) I'll trat it with respect...  :D

 :pok: :D :D ;)
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england Offline Benner

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #9 on: September 22, 2010, 04:04:16 PM
Not even for a stack of porno.  :rofl:
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #10 on: September 22, 2010, 04:07:54 PM
Not even for a stack of porno.  :rofl:

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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gb Offline nuphoria

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #11 on: September 22, 2010, 04:31:21 PM
The green stuff might be Kryptonite - does your gadget pick that up?
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um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #12 on: September 22, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
Could the trace elements vary that much from batch to batch of stock material, randomly?  (That is, could bottle openers from different batches show the same variation)


Offline VicX

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 05:02:52 PM
Great idea, edcgear. :tu:

Let's find out what these little evil red (or emerald green, like Benner's) marvels are made of, so we can blackmail Victorinox and ask for free SAK's (or a stack of porn) in order to keep their secret. >:D :D


cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 05:18:07 PM
Great idea, edcgear. :tu:

Let's find out what these little evil red (or emerald green, like Benner's) marvels are made of, so we can blackmail Victorinox and ask for free SAK's (or a stack of porn) in order to keep their secret. >:D :D


 :think: :think: :tu: :salute:
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de Offline Jmora

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 05:25:23 PM
Very interesting. Victorinox have always been discreet about their steel recipe. Do these results surprise anyone? Does it approximate any other well-known steel?


00 Offline Freudian Frog

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 05:38:23 PM
Very interesting. Victorinox have always been discreet about their steel recipe. Do these results surprise anyone? Does it approximate any other well-known steel?

Eh? I'm pretty sure the steel used is published somewhere, even on their website. :think:
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 05:43:29 PM
Very interesting. Victorinox have always been discreet about their steel recipe. Do these results surprise anyone? Does it approximate any other well-known steel?

Eh? I'm pretty sure the steel used is published somewhere, even on their website. :think:

On wikipedia...
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de Offline Jmora

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #18 on: September 22, 2010, 06:30:51 PM
I don't see anything on wikipedia, I was referring to the specific chemical composition of the steel. As long as I've been reading about SAKs I've been hearing people speculate about its composition (e.g. maybe the rust resistance is due to a high cadmium content etc). I have a history of being wrong about these things though and overlooking obvious facts.  ???


cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #19 on: September 22, 2010, 07:01:35 PM
I don't see anything on wikipedia, I was referring to the specific chemical composition of the steel. As long as I've been reading about SAKs I've been hearing people speculate about its composition (e.g. maybe the rust resistance is due to a high cadmium content etc). I have a history of being wrong about these things though and overlooking obvious facts.  ???

Steel

The martensitic stainless steel alloy used for the cutting blades is optimized for high toughness and corrosion resistance and has a composition of 15% chromium, 0.60% silicon, 0.52% carbon, 0.50% molybdenum, and 0.45% manganese and is designated X55CrMo14 or 1.4110 according to Victorinox. After a hardening process at 1040 °C and annealing at 160 °C the blades achieve an average blade steel hardness of 56 HRC. This steel hardness is suitable for practical use and easy resharpening, but less than achieved in stainless steel alloys used for blades optimized for high wear resistance.[6][7][8] According to Victorinox the martensitic stainless steel alloy used for the parts is X39Cr13 or 1.4031 and for the springs X20Cr13 or 1.4021.[9] The steel used for the wood saws, scissors and nail files has a steel hardness of HRC 53, the screwdrivers, tin openers and awls have a hardness of RC 52, and the corkscrew and springs have a hardness of HRC 49. The metal saws and files, in addition to the special case hardening, are also subjected to a hard chromium plating process so that iron and steel can also be filed and cut. The separators between the tools have been made from aluminium alloy since 1951. This makes the knives lighter. Previously these separating layers were made of nickel-silver.[10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_knife#Steel

 ;) :D :salute:
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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #20 on: September 22, 2010, 07:23:05 PM
Could the trace elements vary that much from batch to batch of stock material, randomly?  (That is, could bottle openers from different batches show the same variation)

That's kinda what I'm wondering.  I.e. are all blades on all SAKs exactly the same, or (and I suspect this is more likely) does it just depend on which roll of steel they're stamped out of.

Very cool BTW edcgear.  :tu:
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #21 on: September 22, 2010, 08:18:34 PM
Could the trace elements vary that much from batch to batch of stock material, randomly?  (That is, could bottle openers from different batches show the same variation)

That's kinda what I'm wondering.  I.e. are all blades on all SAKs exactly the same, or (and I suspect this is more likely) does it just depend on which roll of steel they're stamped out of.

Very cool BTW edcgear.  :tu:

What you have is name (read: type) of the material i.e. 420hc, or 154cm... or SS something...

according to that you have min. and max. allowed qty of element in percentage... So as you can see, it can vary but within boundries, if it goes out of min. or max. values it is not that type of material any more... for example (and this may not be truth I took it only as example) if Cr vary between 14 - 16% it's OK, but if it goes out, it's not the same steel (or alloy is more suitable name for that metal)...

Besides this, there is also How it's made, cast, forged, strenghned, tempered, is it austenite steel, what is the structure of crystals, etc....

As you can see there is a lot of details to be considered, type of alloy is just one of them and to have a whole picture you must have other data...

i.e. strenght of same type of alloy may vary considering other elements in production stated above...

huh!! science 1o1

 :D :D
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There is method to my madness....
http://svakodnevnesitnice.blogspot.com/


de Offline Jmora

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 08:53:40 PM
I don't see anything on wikipedia, I was referring to the specific chemical composition of the steel. As long as I've been reading about SAKs I've been hearing people speculate about its composition (e.g. maybe the rust resistance is due to a high cadmium content etc). I have a history of being wrong about these things though and overlooking obvious facts.  ???

Steel

The martensitic stainless steel alloy used for the cutting blades is optimized for high toughness and corrosion resistance and has a composition of 15% chromium, 0.60% silicon, 0.52% carbon, 0.50% molybdenum, and 0.45% manganese and is designated X55CrMo14 or 1.4110 according to Victorinox. After a hardening process at 1040 °C and annealing at 160 °C the blades achieve an average blade steel hardness of 56 HRC. This steel hardness is suitable for practical use and easy resharpening, but less than achieved in stainless steel alloys used for blades optimized for high wear resistance.[6][7][8] According to Victorinox the martensitic stainless steel alloy used for the parts is X39Cr13 or 1.4031 and for the springs X20Cr13 or 1.4021.[9] The steel used for the wood saws, scissors and nail files has a steel hardness of HRC 53, the screwdrivers, tin openers and awls have a hardness of RC 52, and the corkscrew and springs have a hardness of HRC 49. The metal saws and files, in addition to the special case hardening, are also subjected to a hard chromium plating process so that iron and steel can also be filed and cut. The separators between the tools have been made from aluminium alloy since 1951. This makes the knives lighter. Previously these separating layers were made of nickel-silver.[10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_knife#Steel

 ;) :D :salute:

thanks :cheers:, as I suspected, I'm getting a bit absent-minded these days.


ca Offline jekostas

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 09:14:42 PM
Interesting post, edcgear - one thing that would be really helpful is if you could post the carbon content, even though it's likely at or just under .5% - it would help nail down exactly which steel Vic is using in their blades.


cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #24 on: September 22, 2010, 10:31:11 PM
Interesting post, edcgear - one thing that would be really helpful is if you could post the carbon content, even though it's likely at or just under .5% - it would help nail down exactly which steel Vic is using in their blades.

As a matter of fact I can't... This gadget does not pick up carbon... It's just the way thingy works... But one of the way is to make a sum out of percents stated and the rest to 100% we assume is carbon... Yup, I know its a little awkward, but...

So as I have calculated before you have a sum arround 99,5-99,8% so it isn't a quality or high carbon steel... But concentracion of carbon from 0-2,06% makes austenit steel, and now we are going into pure science of materials (machine (or mechanical) materials - is literal translation from Serbian), and due to my lack of practical (or technical is better word maybe) knowledge of English maybe it will be good for anyone interested in subject to look on further pages:

http://www.sunilsteel.com/influence.htm#Carbon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

Enjoy!!  :D
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gb Offline Neil

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #25 on: September 22, 2010, 10:39:36 PM
For the abuse of expensive employer's equipment in the pursuit of trivia I salute you  :salute: :D
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cs Offline edcgear

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #26 on: September 22, 2010, 10:42:43 PM
For the abuse of expensive employer's equipment in the pursuit of trivia I salute you  :salute: :D

Well what would be worth this (really) expensive peace of equipment if I could not share some cool stuff with you guys.... :think:

 :salute: :tu:
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
There is method to my madness....
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ca Offline jekostas

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #27 on: September 23, 2010, 12:13:53 AM
Interesting post, edcgear - one thing that would be really helpful is if you could post the carbon content, even though it's likely at or just under .5% - it would help nail down exactly which steel Vic is using in their blades.

As a matter of fact I can't... This gadget does not pick up carbon... It's just the way thingy works... But one of the way is to make a sum out of percents stated and the rest to 100% we assume is carbon... Yup, I know its a little awkward, but...

So as I have calculated before you have a sum arround 99,5-99,8% so it isn't a quality or high carbon steel... But concentracion of carbon from 0-2,06% makes austenit steel, and now we are going into pure science of materials (machine (or mechanical) materials - is literal translation from Serbian), and due to my lack of practical (or technical is better word maybe) knowledge of English maybe it will be good for anyone interested in subject to look on further pages:

http://www.sunilsteel.com/influence.htm#Carbon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

Enjoy!!  :D

The reason I'm asking is that given the elemental numbers you've posted, the steel is closer to DIN 1.4116 rather than DIN 1.4110.  Carbon content tends to be pretty highly controlled in steel formulations, and under .5% in testing is odd.


us Offline ICanFixThat

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #28 on: September 23, 2010, 01:57:15 AM
Cool, what's the rated accuracy of the device. 

Numbers from SAK wiki were:

C - 0.48-0.60   
Cr - 13-15   
Mo - 0.50-0.80
V - 0.15
Mn - 0.45
Si - 0.60

Not sure how those differ from other reported sources.  I had some others (or the same ones) from another source somewhere. 




us Offline J-sews

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Re: What's it made of...
Reply #29 on: September 23, 2010, 04:35:09 AM
Well I'm impressed! :tu: Last time we looked at getting one of those spectra analyzers where I work it was over $30,000! :o
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