Dime Damage

[theonew]

I've been carrying and loving the Gerber Dime since I received it last Saturday. I thought I'd finally found something that would knock the PS4 off my keychain. Well tonight I decided to test the wire cutters and remove an obsolete sign held to a fence in the garbage area of my building. The wire was just a bit thicker than bailing wire and while I didn't think it would be an easy task for the Dime, I didn't expect to ruin the tool. I was using about moderate hand pressure when I thought it had snipped the wire but instead had bent one of the back springs.



When I closed the pliers one of the jaws became locked closed by the bent spring.



I have done a heck of a lot worse things to my PS4 with the only discernible damage being some minor denting of the cutters.

I wonder if this one has a manufacturing defect or if the design is not as strong as the PS4

[rickinFL]

Same thing happened to my BG minitool.

[AimlessWanderer]

  That doesn't look too clever 

The size of that backspring looks delicate compared to the size of the plier head it's supposed to be supporting  Well maybe not the spring itself as the forces would be in-line, but the amount of support it has (or doesn't) to prevent it bowing out like that 

Definitely something I'll be looking at closely when mine arrive

[sawman]

Junk

[Syph007]

Um. that looks like the steel wasnt heat treated for proper spring temper.  Its quite a process to turn regular steel into good spring steel, and I bet they skipped steps.  Spring steel cant do that at all, it would snap not bend.  Garbage if you ask me.

I'm not a gerber fan at all, and its hard to not bash them openly, trying to be nice here, but really that doensn't surprise me.  All the gerber cheap stuff Ive ever handled or seen is just garbage.  I couldnt find sometone to give my cheap gerbers to, and they just ended up in trash.  This looks about the same.

[kirk13]

Can it be fixed under warrenty?

Thanks for going the extra mile though to test the strenght of the Dime

[AHB]

I just posted a link to this thread and "Hopefully this isn't a common fault on the Gerber Dime.. Will it be replaced under warranty?" on Gerbers FB site, so let's see what happens..

Fast reply:
Gerber Gear
Hello Allan - Sorry to see that happen to your Dime!
If you fill out the form found here: http://www.gerbergear.com/Meet-Gerber/Support/Warranty-Info we can certainly get that all taken care of for you.

Allan
Thnaks for the quick reply. It's not mine, but belongs to a fellow member at Multitool.org. I'll pass the info to him.. Btw we did a group buy which ended with nearly 85 Dimes in all..

[theonew]

Allan thanks for lookin' out

I normally wouldn't make a warranty claim on a low $ item like this but seeing how it's a new product perhaps it can be of benefit to the folks at Gerber. Frankly I'm at a loss as to whether it's the thickness of the spring or bad tempering or something else entirely

[J-sews]

So I don't quite understand....what made the backspring bend? Does all the pressure of the plier fall on that one little piece of metal?

[theonew]

Well I don't believe that the little spring is taking all of the force but it is definitely being stressed.
This setup appears to be very similar to what LM uses for their mini-pliers.  But there is a noticeable difference in geometry as the photo below shows. Top - LM Squirt PS4, middle - LM Style PS, bottom - Gerber Dime.



The little springs on the LMs are noticeably shorter than on the Dime, which I would imagine creates less opportunity to bend   The tips of the little springs on the LMs are also beveled a bit which may be to counteract certain stresses 

[J-sews]

Okay, I see what you mean now. I don't have a Dime yet, but looking at a Squirt or a Juice I can see how it works. And to be honest, I believe the backspring IS taking on the entire force of the plier. That is a great deal of pressure for such a small bit of metal.

All the more reason they should make doubly certain to get the heat treatment on them done right.

[scrappy]

The dime is a great value and I can't knock it. but I think the leatherman quality on a tool this size is going to be better.

[Chako]

I am going to have to look at mine closely whenever it gets here. 

[Mr. Whippy]

Man, I HATE reading this. 

I got my Gerber Dime yesterday and I have been really impressed with it.  In many ways, I think it's better than the Squirt.  The bottle opener and pliers jaws are much better.  I've only cut some copper wire, but haven't seen a problem. 

And I love the knife blade shape.  I think it's great that it's not a chisel grind (like the squirt).

Looking at the springs, it looks like the pliers only act on ONE spring.  The other "leaf" is part of the pliers "recoil" mechanism.  Put another way, the base of the pliers only rest on the one spring.

I really like this little tool...I hope this is a "one off" problem. 

[AHB]

I am going to have to look at mine closely whenever it gets here. 

I'll stare at mine too when it arrives... 

[Mr. Whippy]

Ok. 

I tried to cut ONE strand of #12 solid core copper wire:



It's going back to Gerber.  I like the tool, but the wire cutters ARE NOT TO BE USED!!!

   ...and I really like this tool too.

[J-sews]

Ouch! That's a real bummer guys. Hopefully Gerber can get this issue sorted pronto

[theonew]

That sucks, I was really hoping mine was just a fluke

I'm starting to think that leatherman bevels the ends of the springs to help stabilize the longitudinal forces.

[badwolf]

Really not what you want to see from a new product, what a shame, maybe just a batch

[AimlessWanderer]

I suspect that if all the forces are acting on that one small spring, we're talking a design issue not a materials one. The concept of the tool is excellent, and I hope Gerber's designers are working on this as we speak otherwise they are going to be facing an ocean of problems down the line.

For me they either need to increase the supported length of the spring, tie the two springs together somehow to double the strength, or drastically increase the cross sectional area. This could potentially be the best keychain pliers out there if they can resolve this.

My main issue is the bewildered fools that act as Gerber agents in the UK. I'm sure Gerber will get this sorted one way or another (it's not THAT difficult to fix), but how that translates to UK support/recall/exchange is a real concern for me. I hope they communicate clear instruction through and don't just re-send out these weak versions once they've fixed it

[Syph007]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

[AimlessWanderer]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

[Syph007]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

Absolutely!!!!

[Mr. Whippy]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

Absolutely!!!!

Let me echo theonew's comment:

I wasn't applying THAT much force to it.  The copper wire hardly has a dent in it.

Just to reiterate:  DO NOT USE the wire cutters!

[AimlessWanderer]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

Absolutely!!!!

I don't know enough about knife specs to argue the point, but my mind is fixed on the fact that not all springs snap if overstressed. Not new ones anyway, where fatigue hasn't had chance to introduce a little stress cracking.

We'll find out soon enough though. If they come out with some that don't fail under the same load it's materials ... if the tool gets pulled or modified, it's design 

Let me echo theonew's comment:

I wasn't applying THAT much force to it.  The copper wire hardly has a dent in it.

Just to reiterate:  DO NOT USE the wire cutters!

There's still something fundamentally wrong with the tool though for that to happen. I hope lot's of people DO use the wire cutters ... I want Gerber to fix whatever the problem is, and they'll only do that if there's enough tool failures 

[Syph007]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

Absolutely!!!!

I don't know enough about knife specs to argue the point, but my mind is fixed on the fact that not all springs snap if overstressed. Not new ones anyway, where fatigue hasn't had chance to introduce a little stress cracking.

We'll find out soon enough though. If they come out with some that don't fail under the same load it's materials ... if the tool gets pulled or modified, it's design 

Just to clarify, a normal spring in a folder or MT isnt distorted to that extent under normal tool operation.  How much does a sak spring flex, maybe a couple mm's?  It flexes, then does its job and pushes back, then returns to normal. 

What I'm saying is if a spring is distorted to the extent of what is pictured with the dime it would for sure snap, no chance that a spring is going to be able to bend like that and 'spring' back to normal, it's just not possible.

[AimlessWanderer]

To me it looks like mostly a material issue, but the design could be better to so as to not put all force on that one spring.

If that spring was brought to full hardness, then brought back down to about 45 (43-37 works too) then it would behave like a spring and would it would be impossible for it to bend like that.  I challenge anyone to put a bend in a SAK backspring, can't be done.

So there is zero doubt in my mind the heat treat was bad.  We don't know yet if its the whole line though or a batch.  Gerber will have to fill in those details.

Are you saying you think it should have snapped if overstressed rather than deformed? 

Absolutely!!!!

I don't know enough about knife specs to argue the point, but my mind is fixed on the fact that not all springs snap if overstressed. Not new ones anyway, where fatigue hasn't had chance to introduce a little stress cracking.

We'll find out soon enough though. If they come out with some that don't fail under the same load it's materials ... if the tool gets pulled or modified, it's design 

Just to clarify, a normal spring in a folder or MT isnt distorted to that extent under normal tool operation.  How much does a sak spring flex, maybe a couple mm's?  It flexes, then does its job and pushes back, then returns to normal. 

What I'm saying is if a spring is distorted to the extent of what is pictured with the dime it would for sure snap, no chance that a spring is going to be able to bend like that and 'spring' back to normal, it's just not possible.

Oh, totally agree! It's only done that because the component has failed. It doesn't 100% prove materials or design though. I've not got my Dime's through yet ... still tied up in the mail system somewhere ... but I've just got home and had a look at my LM squirt.

The pliers only rest on one spring again, and I can't see that being much thicker than the Dime over the tapered front section due to the amount of room the plier heads take up when closed. There does however seem to be a significantly shorter unsupported length of spring looking at the pics. This only narrows down the culprits to material choice, spring design, or heat treat though. If the spring has bent OUT like that, then where it's supported it must have bent IN  right where the cut out is for the saddle piece, forming an S shape 

Is that why the pliers jammed when it was closed?   

Whatever it is I hope they've figured it out, or at the very least have started investigating

[theonew]

Bend or snap both result in failure. My vote is that it is a design flaw. If the compressive forces acting on the spring during wire cutting were kept inline with the spring itself I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have the hand strength to cause this failure and keeping the forces inline would be a lot easier to do if the flexible part of the spring was shorter like the way LM has them

[Gareth]

Just throwing this question out there; just what are the chances that Gerber designed a pocket tool with wire cutters and then didn't ever test them?   Seems at least a little unlikely to me, so with that in mind I'm at least hoping it's a heat treatment failure rather than a fundamental design flaw.

I will for sure be having a very close look at my Dime when it gets here though.

[Mr. Whippy]

I submitted a warranty claim to Gerber last week, but haven't heard back from them.   Not a great start to this...

I'll re-ping them on FB if I don't hear by tomorrow.