My look into CCW

[Lynn LeFey]

I'm not sure what I intend from this thread, but it's a topic on my mind, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, since I think I've come to the point where I'm simply not going to get any further without bouncing ideas off of other people.

First, I live in Illinois, in the USA.  It is the last state in the union to adopt some kind of concealed carry laws, meaning you may carry a concealed firearm on your person. While the courts have ruled that Illinois must allow CCW, the exact details have yet to be ironed out.

I live right near the Mississippi River, near St. Louis Missouri. This means that if I travel to the other side of the metro area I'm in, an entirely different set of laws apply. This becomes important in a moment.

There is something called 'Reciprocity' with gun laws, such that some states will allow non-residents to get CCW licensing and training, some will not, and some states recognize the CCW licenses issued by other states. One state which allows non-residents to get CCW licensing is Florida. Florida's CCW license is recognized by virtually every state I EVER travel to... except Illinois. And because Illinois is going to require more rigorous training than most any other state, it means that most likely, no other state will recognize Illinois' CCW license either.

So, to be allowed to carry a firearm concealed in both Illinois and Missouri (into which we travel at least once every week), it would require me to get...
1) 8 hours of CCW training (for a Florida non-resident license), $115
2) A Florida non-resident CCW license, $150
3) and ADDITIONAL 8 hours of CCW training (to total 16) for Illinois, $150
4) An Illinois Resident CCW license, $150

Total cost: $565
OR only $265 if I want to be able to concealed carry everywhere... except the state in which I LIVE.
 

And those numbers have nothing to do with the actual purchase of the firearm itself, the cost for range time and ammo to practice or the inevitable need to buy 3 or 4 different carry rigs or possibly a new purse to conceal the weapon.

No one can EVER really know if they'll ever need a gun, but my best estimates put it something like one in 10,000 odds. If I chose to believe some statistics, I might even say that 94% of the time I drew a gun, it would never be fired, although I can't find out if those two odss I just mentioned overlap. So... yay... 

Even having a firearm, there are a lot of scenarios where it does little to no good. Stack on top of that the number of places which specifically prohibit the carry of a weapon, and the cost/benefit starts looking shaky.

Setting the question of 'Should I?' aside, the next issue would be which firearm. We have an indoor range near us which rents a very large number of handguns for use in their range, so you can 'try before you buy'. Almost every pistol we're considering is on the list. In general, we have focussed on 9mm sub-compacts. While some people might prefer larger rounds, the 9mm is largely considered adequate for self defense. Probably more important is, setting self defense use aside, it's the most economical centerfire round. Since the vast odds seem to be that ALL of the shooting any CCW pistol we ever own will get will be on the range, this seems to be a very reasonable consideration.

So, the guns that didn't make the cut: Sig Sauer subcompacts and the Kimber Solo (all due to price). We also cut the Glock 26. The handle is uncomfortably large for both me and my husband. The good news here is that our hands are about the same size, so what we find comfortable in grips are virtually identical.

Strong contenders: Smith and Wesson M&P Shield, Beretta Nano, Springfield XD-9, Kahr CM9, and Ruger LC9, Walther PPS.

Budget Contenders: Kel Tec PF-9 and P-11, SCCY CPX-1

A few other non-9mm pistols are still on the list, like the Ruger LCR .357, and possibly the Ruger LCP .380 (and maybe the Kel Tec P3AT as well). A last possibility that I consider that my hubby is dead-set against is the North American Arms .22 Magnum Black Widow mini-revolver.

One of the issues for me personally, is that I like to drink alcoholic beverages. While I'm not wise enough to simply not drink, I AM wise enough to not mix that with firearms.

In fact, I'm a rather hot-tempered individual. My husband, on the other hand, does not drink, EVER, and is very VERY non-confrontational. Because of this, I think it might be a better idea for him to get CCW than for me to get it. The issue there is that we're not always together, and I'm a much better shot.

When I say I'm a better shot, I mean I'm a qualified Marksman in the Air Force, and would have scored Sharpshooter, if the Air Force HAD such a thing. An issue I'm very clear on is that every piece of paper or small critter I ever shot was not shooting back at me. I have no way of knowing how badly my accuracy will fall apart under that stress.

So, I don't know if the look into CCW will culminate in me getting the licensing and carrying, but I am looking into it.

As a partial stopgap/compromise, I picked up a container of Sabre Red pepper spray. Good versus dogs, and hopefully against non-firearm types of threats like people with knives and such. For the cost ($11), and the weight of a few ounces, no licensing, and no fear of being wracked with guilt, not to mention possibly having my own gun taken from me and getting shot, it seemed like a reasonable step.

I am one of the few people, it seems, that is on the fence concerning the carry of firearms. I feel people should have the right, but the realistic odds of them ever being of any use makes me strongly wonder if that (considerable) money and (less considerable) weight couldn't be put to better use in EDC. for the $1000 that it would cost for the gun and licensing, I could buy a LOT of other stuff that would almost certainly be of much more use.

All considered and polite input is appreciated.

[enki_ck]

That is quite a bit of money for something you're most likey and hopefully never going to use. And if you buy two of them for each of you (seems logical as you're not always at the same place) the cost doubles.

This is only for carrying while out of the house, right?

[Styerman]

If it were me , I'd go for it . It will never get any easier to get . Wether you choose to exercise the right is then up to you .

Chris

[jzmtl]

If it were me , I'd go for it . It will never get any easier to get . Wether you choose to exercise the right is then up to you .

Chris

Yeah this, here we can't even get CCW unless you are some sort of big cheese, or sleeping with one. Last I heard the number of issued CCW in the entire country isn't much more than single digit.

[Bensasupertool]

All money aside. A CCW card is priceless. My wife and I got ours nine years ago. We both started out with 44mag S&W revolvers.  Shes a sport shooter now,and blows Albany PD boys away comps. She also has a pistol collection to rival my MT collection. Colts,S&W's and a few 9mm Glocks for sport dominate the gun cabinet. I carry a Colt special combat government when out and about. Yes its big for CC. Then a newer Colt defender for everywhere inbetween.

Its peice of mind and liberating to carry a firearm. You can depend on yourself for immedate action and protection. God for bid that ever happens. Not to put down any law dogs, but they are minutes away when seconds count. Its our inaliable right to bear arms. Use the right to the fullest. I live in a state where an AR type rifle is considered an A-bomb,and more than 7 rounds in a mag puts you in prison. NEW YORK. Im the bitter clinger Lynn. I say go for the license.

[3rdpig]

I've been carrying a pistol every day, or darn near every day, since I was 21, and I'm 55 now.  I got my first CCW permit in Seattle, I think it cost me 15 dollars, there was no background check to speak of and they gave it to you on the spot in the courthouse.  When I moved to Arizona 20 years ago they were just getting their CCW law passed, I think I was probably in the first batch.

I've carried every kind of pistol from a 2 shot High Standard 22 derringer to a 45 Colt Government model 1911.  My current carry pistol is a Glock 26 and my Back Up Gun is a Polish P64 converted to DAO from SAO.

When you carry a gun you can NOT afford to lose your temper.  You can NOT afford to escalate a verbal match into a gun fight.  You can NOT afford to get physical.  If you have to shoot everything you  said and did leading up to the shooting will be analyzed over and over and if it looks like you instigated it you could be in a lot of trouble, even if the shooting was justified.

Having to shoot someone will be the second worse thing that can happen to you, the first being you or a family member were shot and killed.  It can and probably will change your life forever.  It can destroy marriages, finances, friendships and families.  It can also save your life or the life of a loved one.

I highly suggest you get some training.  The CCW training class is not enough.  I have no idea who's in your area, but facilities like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and trainers like Tiger McKee or Clint Smith.  I can't stress enough how much training means, there's an old saying, "You don't know what you don't know", and it applies here.  I'm sure there's someone near you, maybe not in Illinois, but in a neighboring state.  If you really can't afford training then go to www.guntalk.tv and watch some of the videos.

Should you?  As long as you can deal with the fact that once you start carrying you will have to back down from confrontations.  The best way to win a gunfight is not to get in it in the first place.  That being understood, then yes, you absolutely should.  Also consider some kind of special liability insurance in case you do have to use a firearm in self defense.  Most policies run from $125-200 a year and cover you up to around $100,000.  The NRA offers one, as does the USCCA and the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you have if I can.

[Lynn LeFey]

That was a really excellent post, 3rdpig. 

A lot of people don't think through the events following pulling a trigger in self defense.

[bmot]

Honestly (yes, here comes the European way of seeing this  ) I don't see why you'd want to carry a weapon like that... Here, we hear from time to time about -police- being shot with their own weapon, and they're supposed to be trained for it a lot more than your CCW, I believe.
I think the danger that it can bring to you in a situation that you might need it, besides the fact that the chance you will need it is minimal, I personally couldn't justify the money.


Like you said, you think the weapon will be used on the range the most, right? I doubt you'll need a CCW licence for that, so what I'd say, of course, buy that weapon, even if it's for fun, use it on the range. I personally don't think the $1000 you spend on the licence is well spend, and besides, wouldn't you prefer to spend the money on a slightly nicer car?

[Chako]

bmot, not just the European way of thinking...most Canadians think the same way.

I remember going into the States and freaking out somewhat because I was seeing firearms strapped onto people. I did not make me feel safe at all. I could not wait to get back into Canada at the time. I was a bit young and didn't understand the differences. It did leave an indelible impression on me however.

With that said, I am contemplating taking a firearms course this summer to get my PAL. Possibly buying my first firearm and joining a local gun club. Not sure if I will go through with it...but I have been toying with it for a while now.

Lynn LeFey, please keep this thread running. I am curious to see how your journey goes.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'm actually very disappointed in the Canadian Firearms course.  Its a two evening course for long guns and another two evenings for pistols.  Pretty much all they teach you is how the action works in remind you repeatedly not to point at people.

 If you manage to work the actions on a number of different firearms and not point them at the instructors they automatically give you a pass.  At no point do you have to demonstrate any kind of proficiency.

 And yet to get a driver's license you actually have to take instructor out on the road with the car and prove that you can handle it.

Def

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[derekmac]

Honestly (yes, here comes the European way of seeing this  ) I don't see why you'd want to carry a weapon like that... Here, we hear from time to time about -police- being shot with their own weapon, and they're supposed to be trained for it a lot more than your CCW, I believe.
I think the danger that it can bring to you in a situation that you might need it, besides the fact that the chance you will need it is minimal, I personally couldn't justify the money.


Like you said, you think the weapon will be used on the range the most, right? I doubt you'll need a CCW licence for that, so what I'd say, of course, buy that weapon, even if it's for fun, use it on the range. I personally don't think the $1000 you spend on the licence is well spend, and besides, wouldn't you prefer to spend the money on a slightly nicer car?

That's how I feel also. I'm not going to go into it any further though as my thoughts on it may not be well accepted.

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[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't think the thread is so much about whether or not to get a CCW, vut more about how best to go about doing it.

 Regardless of your feelings on CCW, let's  try to respect the rights and opinions of others.  Lynn is an adult who has made a choice and we should support her as one of us, just as I'm sure she respects your choices about guns.

Def



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[bmot]

I don't think the thread is so much about whether or not to get a CCW, vut more about how best to go about doing it.

 Regardless of your feelings on CCW, let's  try to respect the rights and opinions of others.  Lynn is an adult who has made a choice and we should support her as one of us, just as I'm sure she respects your choices about guns.

Def

In this spirit...


Are you sure your Illinois licence won't be accepted in other states? If it's stricter, that means you're trained better, I'd say, so other states would be okay with it... Right? Or isn't that how it works?

[Mr. Whippy]

I don't think the thread is so much about whether or not to get a CCW, vut more about how best to go about doing it.

 Regardless of your feelings on CCW, let's  try to respect the rights and opinions of others.  Lynn is an adult who has made a choice and we should support her as one of us, just as I'm sure she respects your choices about guns.

Def

In this spirit...


Are you sure your Illinois licence won't be accepted in other states? If it's stricter, that means you're trained better, I'd say, so other states would be okay with it... Right? Or isn't that how it works?

The State of Maryland has no reciprocity with any other state.  CCW is virtually impossible to obtain unless you're a policeman, guard, private security personnel etc.  If you are caught with a handgun on you, and you do not have a State of Maryland CCW, you will be arrested and charged with a felony.  (Federal CCW is exempted).  CCW reciprocity is extremely patchy and variable, especially as you get into the NE United States.

Lynn,

3rdpig is spot on.

I realize that by and large most Europeans do not have constitutional rights to own/bear arms.  This leads to a distinct difference in cultural views of gun possession.

For my wife, there are many places she simply doesn't go because she is relatively defenseless.  Not being able to arm herself means that she won't go into Baltimore city proper in the evening unless she's going with a largish (more than 4 people) mixed crowd (as an example).

[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't think the thread is so much about whether or not to get a CCW, vut more about how best to go about doing it.

 Regardless of your feelings on CCW, let's  try to respect the rights and opinions of others.  Lynn is an adult who has made a choice and we should support her as one of us, just as I'm sure she respects your choices about guns.

Def

In this spirit...


Are you sure your Illinois licence won't be accepted in other states? If it's stricter, that means you're trained better, I'd say, so other states would be okay with it... Right? Or isn't that how it works?

You have to remember that the US isn't a unified country so much as it is a compilation of states under one banner.  Because of this laws can vary greatly from state to state, and not all states feel the need to honor what their neighboring states are doing.  This makes things a bit confusing as to what you can do and where.

Further complications include federal statutes that govern interstate transfer, which means that while something may be legal in the state you are in, and in the state you have crossed into, it may be illegal if it violates federal law- automatic knives are a great example of that.  They can be legal in one state and legal in the next one over, but inter-state transfer of automatic knives is restricted on the federal level, meaning you can be charged with a crime even if they are legal where you are at.

I imagine firearms restrictions are similarly convoluted.

Def

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[Styerman]

If you are assuming the moral responsability , get first class training , put in the range time , get a top of the line holster etc . An outfit called Modern Combative Systems LLC , gives reality based , force on force training , teaches less lethal options , the instructors are vetran LEO's , been around the block in the court system . I'd rate the 9.5/10 . Their force on force is done with airsoft and stun guns , so it hurts if you screw up . They stress shooting between 1.5- 7M ( most encounters happen at 1.5-3 M .

Chris

[Aloha]

I don't know anyone who has a CCW or who has actively sought one out, that being said I would support you or anyone seeking to obtain one.  Interesting you stated you had a hot temper and are a qualified marksman, you were honest to mention this and as such I believe you will make the right decision for you and your family.  I often wonder,  do we as Americans feel obliged to seek out "reasons" to begin the conversation about obtaining fire arms and CCW's because our constitution gives us the right?  I have friends who are gun owners and are passionate about their rights as Americans to own them.  I also know people who have them as defense measures against “potential” threats at their homes.  Some friend are merely recreational shooters and a very few are hunters.   I support an honest dialogue within a family about gun ownership and the needed steps to become responsible gun owners. 
Regarding pepper spray, I recently bought pepper spray for two of my female friends and that has brought a great sense of security for them.  One works in the city with a large homeless population that congregates as well as loitering in the parking garage where she parks.  The other works at a local campus where many attacks have happened and even made our local news.  I have made sure to remind them this is only a last line of defense and situational awareness is always going to be their first priority.
 I have daughters and would support them if they felt they needed or wanted to obtain a CCW, though I strongly feel the average person needs training beyond whatever CCW requirements because as you state, accuracy may be an issue under duress.  I don't know what the statistics are on people in the general public defending themselves against attackers with their handguns however  I do hear from time to time people at home defending themselves with their firearms.   
I grew up in an area where gun violence was a common occurrence. 
Wikipedia sadly states about the area I grew up in;   Southeast had long struggled with an image problem plagued by street gangs, drug dealing, assaults, and homicide throughout its communities.[15] In 1992, Councilman campaigned against any official designation of the area as "Southeast" since the name labeled the area in an entirely negative light.[2]
The Police Department's Southeastern Division includes some of the city's peak crime areas.[15]Many of the inhabitants in these neighborhoods are working class or lower-income, and a typical sight that is evident throughout Southeast are homes outfitted with iron bars over the ground-floor windows and doors, and in many cases, cast-iron gates and chain-link fences guarding driveways, a reflection of the perceived need for security in these high-crime urban neighborhoods.[15]
Although crime has gone down citywide, shootings are still a regular occurrence throughout Southeast, and the area routinely has a disproportionate amount of homicides in relation to the rest of the city.[16] Additionally, many crimes in the area are not reported to the police[16] which makes it difficult to give a completely accurate assessment on crime statistics in Southeast. Over the last few years, statistics from the Police Department show that about half of all homicides in the whole city had been accounted for in southeastern neighborhoods (covered by both the Central and Southeastern Districts), a substantial figure considering Southeast relatively small geographic size and population in relation to the rest of the city.
Despite this I have never felt the need or desire to obtain a CCW though admittedly I have considered getting a firearm for home defense.  My humble advise is take the $1000 and maybe use if for self-defense training. There was great advice IIRC from a Chicago detective about the chances a mugger armed with a hand gun would actually hit you if you ran.  I’ll try to find it and post it on this thread. 

All the best in your journey with this decision.   

[Aloha]

There are 3 parts of this Guy giving great advice.

http://youtu.be/OdIPlDAXsqg

[Lynn LeFey]

First, on whether or not I will get CCW licensing... it's not decided. A CCW is a very expensive and limited use tool. I've made it through 42 years without ever needing one, working and commuting through less than pristine urban areas. Probably a much better trick than carrying a firearm is simply not going where a firearm is likely to be needed. To be clear, I have NOT made a decision whether CCW is worth the expense. I do not believe that 'right' is the same as 'obligation'.

On Illinois' Reciprocity. There is a sort of stupid 'if you don't recognize OUR stuff, then we won't recognize YOURS' kind of mentality. In theory, an Illinois CCW license, requiring more training hours, SHOULD be the best standard, and most universally recognized. More likely, NO ONE outside of Illinois will recognize it, because Illinois doesn't recognize anyone else's. I'm not sure if Illinois will allow non-residents to get CCW even. Those are issues that have not yet been resolved under the law, so anything I say is really just an educated guess on the matter.

On training: I have a good deal of firearm training already. Admittedly, this isn't defensive firearm use. However, I also understand that the 16 hours needed to get the licensing is rather like the amount of experience you need to get a driving permit. It's a starting point. This is a deciding factor on any CCW pistol I get. It has to be one I'm very comfortable shooting, because I intend to do a lot of practice with it. Even if I don't get CCW, there's a high likelihood I'll get a compact pistol. Just because I like recreational shooting.

I come from rural Ohio, where 'plinking' is a recreational activity, and where guns get you food. I have no problem with people having the right to (responsibly) own and carry firearms, but I also don't think that CCW is for everyone. It is a possible solution to a possible problem. Some of what CCW pistols are good for is covered by the pepper spray I picked up. In fact, for dogs, I'd much prefer to pepper spray them than shoot them.

With the previously mentioned $11 cost of the pepper spray, it seemed like a reasonable solution.

I appreciate views on both sides. I'm not trying to start a heated pro or anti gun debate. That is going on in my head already.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Sadly a lot of ways the problem is by carrying a firearm you are restricting your options rather than increasing them.  Sadly a firearm is a single use tool and you not only have to protect yourself but suddenly have to protect your firearm in less than lethal situations.

 A good friend of mine experienced something along the lines of what I'm talking about a few years ago- some un supervised children were playing a department store in one fell into him, clutching at anything he could to keep himself from hitting the ground.  The kid's hand grabbed the gun through my friend's coat, which fortunately scared the crap out of the kid when he realized what had happened.

 I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone not carry a gun simply because of an incident like this, one simply has to know about these incidents so they can make a proper decision.

 Quite honestly if I could legally carry something, I would probably get the license, although I'm not certain if I would bother carrying anything.  I simply don't worry too much about my safety.  God knows I've been enough bad places and walked out without one.  Still I could do without the restrictions if I did want to take one out when I went camping or kayaking or hiking in the woods. 

 Whether it's worth the expense to you or not, I certainly can't say.  I just personally feel it's always better to have the option and not need it rather than the other way around.

Def

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[jzmtl]

Yeah even if I had CCW I probably won't bother with carry one, but I like having the option of doing something if I choose/need to.

[Mr. Whippy]

For me, it's not about self defense actually. 

If I have a pistol with me while working out in a pasture (groundhogs mostly), and I have to go back and drive to the store for anything, if I still have the handgun on me, I'm instantly a felon in Maryland.  It strikes me as an overly restrictive situation.

[enki_ck]

For me, it's not about self defense actually. 

If I have a pistol with me while working out in a pasture (groundhogs mostly), and I have to go back and drive to the store for anything, if I still have the handgun on me, I'm instantly a felon in Maryland.  It strikes me as an overly restrictive situation.

Then you wouldn't want to live in Croatia. Our laws don't recognise the term of self defence. If someone invades your home, attacks you and you fight him off you'll be charged with attacking him if any harm should come to him and might be facing jail time. Talk about restrictive laws.

[Aloha]

Then you wouldn't want to live in Croatia. Our laws don't recognise the term of self defence. If someone invades your home, attacks you and you fight him off you'll be charged with attacking him if any harm should come to him and might be facing jail time. Talk about restrictive laws.

interesting to say the least

[jzmtl]

For me, it's not about self defense actually. 

If I have a pistol with me while working out in a pasture (groundhogs mostly), and I have to go back and drive to the store for anything, if I still have the handgun on me, I'm instantly a felon in Maryland.  It strikes me as an overly restrictive situation.

Then you wouldn't want to live in Croatia. Our laws don't recognise the term of self defence. If someone invades your home, attacks you and you fight him off you'll be charged with attacking him if any harm should come to him and might be facing jail time. Talk about restrictive laws.

About the same here, you are suppose to leave your home and let the robber do as he wish, duty to retreat or whatever it's called.

[THE_LONGBOW]

I have a CCW but generally do not carry. It is very difficult as Lynn has stated because every state seems to follow a different path when it concerns CCW. For me to visit family in the southern part of the state it is easier to travel through 2 other states. So if I carry I am breaking the law. Traveling long distances is when I feel the need to carry. Here we have very remote areas. So till the states come up with a more consistent CCW laws I have to make difficult decisions.
I do think a CCW is a good thing to get as long as you are well informed and instructed in fire arm use.
Here we can legally carry weapons for hunting. It is a common sight to see pick ups with rifles on gun racks in the back window year around.
Lynn good luck on your decision, you seem to be well informed as to what ever direction you decide to go.

[Lynn LeFey]

Here is a very good wikipedia page on the state-by-state law of 'castle doctrine' in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#State-by-state_positions

Many states have a 'stand your ground' law, meaning you are not required to retreat in a threatening situation. Illinois (where I live) is NOT one of those states, but they do have a 'Castle Law', which means you have no obligation to retreat from someone invading your home.

I would like the OPTION to carry, but I'm not certain the significant cost is worth it. This is me, waffling on the matter. More.

And I'd like to say I'm very happy that this potentially volatile subject is being handled by all in a civil and  rational manner. If I wanted a 'heck yeah' response, I'd go read a pro-gun forum. If I wanted a 'heck no' response, I'd go read anti-gun forums. It's nice to have a single forum where multiple views can be given, and people remain level headed. Thank you all for that.

[bmot]

With all this talk about CCW... This is about concealed carry, obviously.. Does that mean that you may carry a gun when it isn't concealed, or the opposite: you may only carry a gun concealed?

[Mr. Whippy]

With all this talk about CCW... This is about concealed carry, obviously.. Does that mean that you may carry a gun when it isn't concealed, or the opposite: you may only carry a gun concealed?

In most states with very restrictive concealed carry laws, the same applies for open carry.  In some states with more lax concealed carry laws, you can open carry with out a permit, but not in all.

[Lynn LeFey]

Here's the wikipedia article on open (as opposed to concealed) carry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry_in_the_United_States

Not surprisingly, it is just as confusing as concealed carry law.