My look into CCW

[gustophersmob]

Here's the wikipedia article on open (as opposed to concealed) carry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry_in_the_United_States

Not surprisingly, it is just as confusing as concealed carry law.

Not only confusing, but inconsistently applied within the state.

For instance, in Ohio, you need a CCW to carry a concealed handgun.  YOu cannot conceal carry any other kind of weapon, so a fixed blade knife that exceeds whatever the legal length is to be considered a weapon isn't covered.

Also, even though Ohio law allows for open carry without permit, if you do it in a city you will likely be detained for "inciting panic," or something similar.

I also know certain jurisdictions in Ohio like to violate state law and arrest people who are legally carrying concealed.  Cleveland is a big offender in this area.  Its all usually overturned, but still a hassle.

I have an Ohio resident CCW, a New Hampshire non-resident CCW and a Pennsylvania non-resident CCW.  This gives me legal coverage in most states I would likely travel through.  For instance, I have family in Georgia, but that state doesn't have reciprocity with Ohio's CCW.

I find, though, that I rarely carry.  The only time I've carried in the last few years is when I travel via highway through several states, and that is mainly for dimly lit rest areas.

I agree with earlier comments, that you really have to think through the ramifications that are there just from carrying a firearm, let alone using one.  If I had to do it over again, I don't really know if would be worth the hassle for my limited use.  Actually the biggest benefit is that I am able to have a firearm and the ammunition or magazine in the same part of the car.  Ohio law for non-CCW holders is that they have to be in separate places (like the trunk and glovebox, unless you have a truck).  Kind of a pain when you are going to the range to shoot.

[kkokkolis]

Wouldn't a Mahatma Gandhi picture be a safer, lighter and more cost effective option?



I like guns (Glock, Sig Sauer and old Luger Parabellum my favorites) but carrying one everyday seems a nightmare.
Of course I don't live in the US. I understand that the philosophy is different there. You know better York situation. But, still, I believe there are other options. Like some martial arts course.

[kkokkolis]

"York" should be "your" silly iPhone!

[ducttapetech]

CCW is a big choice. I say go for it and hope to hell you never have to use it. Best part is you can carry and still choose not to use it. Nobody knows that you are packing but you. This leaves you a lot of options. Some petty thug that just wants your wallet and is going to run away after he get its, give him the damn wallet, get away and call the police. But if it something worse like rape or more life threating, that is when a CCW maybe a option. Keep in mind, a smurfbag already has a jump on you because he was waiting for you. In a worst case senario where it is truely life or death/rape and you choose to use it, USE IT!!! Do not mess around!  He/she is not, neither should you. Yes there is a possiblity that it can be used against you or you may never get a shot off or it won't drop them, but it is better than nothing.

Pepper spray is not a bad carry option too. But it does however lack range and you have to get it in the face, or more so in the eyes. And it is not lethal. A CCW how ever is lethal but has range and CoM is a easier target to hit instead of the face or eyes.

Of coarse there is nothing that says you can't carry both. This even gives you more options.

Just my 2 cents....
 


sent from Ducttapetech's mobile device

[Lynn LeFey]

Thanks to all for the input so far.

So, setting aside 'Should I?' and issues of expense, the next issue in all this would be the 'how' of concealment.

I'm not a super-fan of having a holster against me all day, so I thought the Maxpedition Versipack or UTG tactical Messenger Bag might be a good option. The problem I see with both bags is that they are intended for a right-handed person. Phone compartment is on the 'wrong side' for a lefty, and the zipper into the area that would hold your CCW would draw back to front. Not to mention possible issues of bag angle since the left and right strap connectors are asymmetrical. I don't think any of those problems are necessarily deal-breakers, but all are smurfing annoying. I do also have some concern about the potential for slashing the strap. A lot of women's purses have a thin steel cable running through the strap to prevent purse snatching. Just a million other little dumb things to consider.

I'd imagine one of those taco holsters velcroed to the inside of the CCW pocket would work fine.

EDIT: Apparently, the S-Type of the Maxpedition Versipack is specifically made for lefties. Interesting.

[Mr. Whippy]

Personally, I do not like the idea of CCW off of your body.  It's just too easy to lose the weapon. Bag snatching, unzipped pocket, just forgetting to pick it up when leaving a restaurant, store etc. 

Just my opinion

[Lynn LeFey]

Bag snatching is the greatest concern with this style, but I've never had someone try yet. As I said in my earlier post, I'd prefer a strap with a cable. I'm not sure how I feel about the quick release buckles on the Maxpedition packs. Great for most every instance except when someone wants to steal the bag.

The unzipped pocket should never be an issue, since they have a dedicated CCW pocket. It would remain closed unless needed.

Leaving it behind. I'd love to say that this simply would never happen, but I left my purse in a hotel room last autumn. it's a legitimate concern.

For the pros, and chief among them, is that I can have my hand ON the pistol and still look inconspicuous. There's no digging under a shirt to get to an inside the waistband holster that can really be hidden. It'd also be a lot less difficult to remove the firearm for areas where it was no allowed.

A friend of mine is dealing with the hassle of trying to remove his concealed carry holster all the time. Welcome to 'you can't take that in here'. Ugg.

It's been rather nice to have a few of my friends (on the Missouri side) do CCW to report back on some of the real-world issues in advance.

Oh... also, apparently the Maxpedition Fatboy G.T.G. S-Type Versipack is on my list for consideration. Smaller than the Jumbo, but still has the water bottle holder.

Strangely, setting CCW issues aside, the one gripe I have with my current purse is that there's no way to carry water, and I'd like more built-in organization that the 3-pocket design allows. I guess I'm just thinking aloud here, so bear with me.

[NutSAK]

You should move to MO.  It's not far, and has the best reciprocity of any state.  I live near the Mississippi also, but on the correct side.    It only cost me $175 for the course and CCW renewal is only $35.  I can actually open carry where I live, but there are municipalities close by where I must use CCW (Cape Girardeau).  Though southern IL is a beautiful place, unfortunately I don't travel across the bridge to the Republik of IL very often because it's one of very few (5?) states that does not reciprocate the MO license.

[Lynn LeFey]

While the gun laws may not be to my liking, the state covers most of the cost of a specialty medication my husband is on that would otherwise cost us more than we make in a year. So...

EDIT:
We just got back from a range, renting a number of sub-compact 9mm pistols to try out. We shot the Ruger LC-9, the Smith & Wesson Shield, and the Springfield XD-9. We also tried the Ruger LCR revolver in .38 special (they didn't have the .357). My groups were the same with all, about 4". My husband couldn't hit anything with the two Rugers, and had good groups with the Shield and XD-9. We both found the Shield more comfortable for our hand size, so at the moment, it's our top contender. I thought the XD-9 shot better for me, but I was perfectly fine with the Shield as well.

[Styerman]

Give the S&W airlights  ( .357 ) a look , other J frames are well worth considering .  The Shield looks like a good piece .

Chris

[NutSAK]

Indeed.  I have two carry guns, a S&W 442 airweight and a Glock 26 (baby Glock, 9mm). The G26 is fantastic gun - versatile and accurate, but the 442 sees more carry, simply because it is thin and comfortable in the inner waist band holster.  However...  It takes A LOT of practice to be proficient and accurate with an airweight J frame, whereas the Glock is very natural to shoot.

The XDs are great guns, and my current range gun is a 4.5 inch XD-M.  It is great to handle, is very accurate and, most importantly, is simple to operate under stress (like a Glock). I would highly recommend trying out the new single - stack XD-S for carry.  It is very compact and handles like its bigger brothers.

Renting is a fantastic idea!  You will never know what works best for you until you try and try some more.

[Lynn LeFey]

The Belleville range doesn't have an XDs, unfortunately. I might check one of the St. Louis ranges.

Yeah, renting is great. It usually doesn't take me long to figure out if I like a firearm from shooting it, but I DO need to shoot it.

I went into the day thinking I'd LOVE the Ruger LCR. In fact, I kind of hated it. The sights were just about useless, and the trigger was horrendous. On the upside, you can't get much simpler mechanically, and it can be fired from inside a CCW bag. I imagine the 442 would be much the same.

So... still no closer to any decisions.

[NutSAK]

The Belleville range doesn't have an XDs, unfortunately. I might check one of the St. Louis ranges.

They're new and in high demand right now.  They are hard to find, and would be especially difficult to find for rental.

I imagine the 442 would be much the same.

So... still no closer to any decisions.

Yes, the 442 is hammerless, so it can be fired from inside a bag.  ...not that I would ever want to do that.

Though the 442 is a great carry gun, and I carry one frequently, I will warn you that I don't find it a fun gun to shoot.  I force myself to shoot it at the range simply because I must be proficient with the gun I carry.  It is especially not fun to shoot with +P defense ammo.  As far as the airweight models chambered in .357, I've never shot one, but I can't imagine what a horrible experience it must be.    With all that said, a J-frame is the ultimate in reliability in "pocketable" pistol, and reliability is worth a great deal.

IMO, the Glock 26 and XD subcompacts are fantastic, fun guns to shoot and make perfect first-time carry guns if you can conceal them.  They are simple to maintain, accurate and extremely reliable.  The Shield and the XD-S are the only common semiautos smaller than those that I would consider reliable enough.  That is, the only ones chambered in a preferred round...

[jerseydevil]

NJ is one of those states where CC is next to impossible to obtain.    That being said, when it comes to smaller handguns, I prefer revolvers.  I don't have good luck with pocket autos.  I have largish hands, and most of the ones I've shot bite my hands with the slide when they cycle.    I've actually managed to stop a Walther PPK from cycling with the web of my hand.....    I'm sure I'm in the minority when it comes to this, but there is something to be said for the simple reliability of a double-action revolver.  My father has a 442 and a Colt Detective Special, both excellent CC snubbies.  The Colt holds six rounds, unlike most S&Ws, which hold five.

[NutSAK]

I'm sure I'm in the minority when it comes to this, but there is something to be said for the simple reliability of a double-action revolver.

I totally agree.  I've had 100% reliability from Glocks and my XD, but regardless, I will never be able to say that they're as reliable as a revolver.  Though the Glock's action is extremely simple compared to other semis, they don't even approach the simplicity of a revolver.

[enki_ck]

I'm very glad to see so much love here for the XD here. Good to know Croatian made guns are valued in a market that has such a big selection of firearms.

[Lynn LeFey]

While there are folks who are VERY attached to a particular brand of gun (same as with MTs or anything else, I guess), most folks I know will give any firearm a shot (no pun intended). The XD was a great performer, IMO, and my favorite. If we end up getting two CCW pistols, the XD is high on my list (budget allowing).

As for the LCR and recoil, the .38 was absolutely fine to me, and I haven't ruled it out, but it would take a LOT of range time on it to get used to those crappy sights. I found it had a lot more backward kick than barrel flip. The grips are designed to absorb a lot of that recoil, and in the .38 special, they certainly seemed to do it admirably. I'm guessing the .357 might be a lot less fun to shoot in the super-light frame, but I'd still like to give it a go.

[jerseydevil]

.357 belly guns are punishing to shoot, no doubt about it.    My .357 is a Model 19, built on the S&W K-Frame like the old M&P.  Much easier to handle with full out Magnum loads.  They were made in 2 and 3" barrels though.  Mine's a 4". 

[Mr. Whippy]

Interesting about the LCR.  I have an LCP and I think it's not a fun gun to shoot.  I much prefer my M&P 40SW.

[ironraven]

Late to the party, but...

This is the biggest EDC decision that can be made. It is pushing a thousand just for the initial buy-in if you are in state with a high permit cost, never mind continuing training. But if it's needed, it was money well spent. And I hate to admit it, but it is needed more than most people mention- I live in Vermont, more peaceful it does not get, but I know several people who've had knives pulled on them in the happy hippie paradise. I've been in two situations where sidearm would have been very nice and it wasn't available. And in the more rural parts of the state, it can take over half an hour to get the one cop for two counties on scene at two in the morning even now; 25 years ago there were nights were there were ZERO on duty and people were told that unless someone was bleeding out, gunshots or a building was on fire, they would just send someone out in the morning to take statements.

And THAT is why I carry.

So practical side...

I'd avoid the small (j-frame equivelent) .357s. If you are going to go that route, as JD pointed out, you can go a little larger, get another round, and it really isn't a lot larger but it is much more controllable. The small .357s (J-frame, sp-101, LCR-357, etc) fit a market demand, but they seem to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist- yes, it's pushing the bullet faster, but the recoil increases follow up time, you have MUCH more muzzle flash, and I'm not sure that you're gaining enough velocity to make it worthwhile. There is no one shot stop, so I'd rather have the follow up on it's way as soon as possible

But I'd also point out that a 2" barrelled revolver is about the same size and weight as a 9mm or .40 with a ~4" barrel and packs slimmer. Reasons my Smith 36 was sold and I carry my G19 these days.

So while thinking of the sidearm, have you shot any of your candidates wearing your normal winter gloves yet?

In terms of holsters, I suggest anything strong side- my personal preference is a pancake holster under a vest or aloha shirt (my shoulders are wider than my hips so printing isn't as bad as it sounds), but I'd got a paddle holster I can take off easily enough if I'm likely to be going someplace I can't carry and I've been known to bring my Jumbo out of retirement on the 90 degree days. Does your rental range let you try out holsters to? And becuase there are places you can't carry, I'm always going to recommend getting a small safe that you can chain or bolt to your car and stick under the seat or in the trunk.



As a side point, sorry NutSAK, we've got you beat in Vermont. No permit, you don't even have to be a resident. The rules are if you can buy it, aren't drinking, and don't carry it into a school, hospital, state or town office building, court house or hospital, you can carry pretty much anything anywhere. So long as it is under six feet tall.

[Lynn LeFey]

This might sound strange, but I don't wear gloves very often. I usually just keep my hands in my coat pockets when it's cold. But I think you bring up a reasonable point.

The rental place does not rent holsters. And thinking on inside-the-belt holster rental... ick.

On an unrelated note, i finally got sick of my smurfing autocorrect, and killed it, after rereading that previous sentence, and seeing that when I typed 'ick', it changed it to 'ice'. I would rather my own poor spelling show than an automated travesty.

[Lynn LeFey]

Okay...

A few days of using the Maxpedition Jumbo EDC S-Type Versipack... Wow, what a name... has me convinced that 20oz (566g) is pretty easily doable for the weight of a CCW pistol.

I am not settled on this style of carry, but it is a very good option, in many ways.

I'm wondering about prescription shooting glasses. If anyone can recommend a fairly affordable and quality brand, I'd appreciate it. I'd prefer something that didn't look TOO tactical.

I've also decided that if I never carry, I have 20oz of extra weight I could manage. Hmmm... Supertool? MUT? Crunch? Some bit-kit adapter thingy? 10 feet of 12-3 wire? A giant bag of M&Ms? 20 ounces of gold? A Kindle Fire or an iPad? 300 feet of paracord? 

EDIT: Hmmm... A friend of mine sent me this story concerning capacity. I think, if I carry, I'll draw the line somewhere substantially under 145 rounds.
http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

[sambeaux]

I apologize for being late to the game. I'm not sure if my opinion counts for more or less... but I'm a concealed handgun permit instructor in Louisiana.

The biggest problems with off body carry are that you have less control over your gun ( it can be taken from you ) and you now have the possibility of leaving your gun somewhere... where it might be taken or worse, discovered by a child.

In addition to the holster styles you mentioned, you might look into belly bands, smart carry, flash bang bra holsters, compression shirts, and compression shorts. Holsters have come a LONG way in the last few years.

All in all, I would wait until the Illinois laws are settled into place before making your decision. More and more states are not recognizing the Florida non-resident permits.

Sam

Okay...

A few days of using the Maxpedition Jumbo EDC S-Type Versipack... Wow, what a name... has me convinced that 20oz (566g) is pretty easily doable for the weight of a CCW pistol.

I am not settled on this style of carry, but it is a very good option, in many ways.

I'm wondering about prescription shooting glasses. If anyone can recommend a fairly affordable and quality brand, I'd appreciate it. I'd prefer something that didn't look TOO tactical.

I've also decided that if I never carry, I have 20oz of extra weight I could manage. Hmmm... Supertool? MUT? Crunch? Some bit-kit adapter thingy? 10 feet of 12-3 wire? A giant bag of M&Ms? 20 ounces of gold? A Kindle Fire or an iPad? 300 feet of paracord? 

EDIT: Hmmm... A friend of mine sent me this story concerning capacity. I think, if I carry, I'll draw the line somewhere substantially under 145 rounds.
http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

[Lynn LeFey]

I'm always happy to hear others' perspectives.

The loss of control, and yes, the fear of setting down my bag and having it found by someone (worst case scenario would be a kid) is something that had occurred to me. I've looked at a number of holster types. I can't say I'm thrilled with any of them, really. I understand the advantages and disadvantages of on-person and in-bag carry. For where we travel, worst case is likely car jacking. I'd much rather have in-bag for that, instead of trying to draw a gun from an area covered by a seat belt.

As for the laws, they should be settled soon. I'm still watching that issue closely.

And, as has always been the case, I still haven't decided whether or not I'll ever carry concealed. I'm indecisive.

[Lynn LeFey]

I visited a friend yesterday, wondering if his 1911 Para ordinance 14.45 would fit in the CCW area of the Maxpedition bag. It would. That's about the biggest pistol I'd ever care to fire, and I don't think I'd ever want to carry something that large. However, knowing I COULD means that most every pistol is available for carry, from full size down to sub-compacts. Just gives me more options.

[Jailbird]

I have a few handguns but I don't necessarily feel the need to carry. My wife and I are going for our permits just so we have the option. I like Wisconsin's writing of the law because the CCW permit allows the concealed carry of other weapons, not just handguns.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[nate j]

I'm late to this party as well, but wanted to share a few thoughts.  I'm a PA LTCF (CCW) holder, and regularly carry.

WHY?
I try to evaluate an item for EDC inclusion or exclusion on the basis of how often I expect to use it, the seriousness of the need should it arise (e.g. life-and-death vs. mere inconvenience), and the availability (either among my other EDC items or in the surrounding environment in general) of a suitable substitute.  With regard to a firearm, if I do need it, it would be a life-or-death situation by definition, and IMHO anything else would be a poor substitute for a gun, although I expect to use it rarely (hopefully never) in actual SD, which leads into..

WHAT ARE THE ODDS ONE WILL ACTUALLY NEED A FIREARM FOR SD?
This is a good question and unfortunately not easy to answer on an individual basis, but if I were forced to try to quantify it, I would proceed as follows:
1.  Note that estimates of the number of instances per year in which firearms are used in self defense vary greatly, from a low of about 70,000 to high of about 2,500,000.
2.  Note that the FBI estimates there were roughly 1,200,000 violent crimes in the US in 2011.
3.  Accounting for possible overlap, non-uniqueness, and the fact that carrying a firearm is not a guarantee of safety (and to make the math easy in step 5), let's use an estimate of 300,000 people per year who either defended themselves with a gun or were victimized but could have defended themselves given a gun and a reasonable degree of proficiency with it.  (If you don't agree with my estimate of 300,000 at this step, pick whatever number you like and keep following along - the math is the same.)
4.  Note that the US population is approximately 300,000,000.
5.  Calculate the odds of needing to defend oneself with a gun in any given year as 300,000/300,000,000 = 1/1000
6.  Decide how many years one will likely carry.  I'll use 30 years.
7.  Calculate odds of NOT needing to defend oneself with a gun in any given year as 1 - (odds of needing to defend oneself with a gun in any given year) = 1 - 1/1000 = 999/1000
8.  Calculate odds of NOT needing to defend oneself with a gun during all the years of carry as (999/1000)^30 = 97%
9.  Calculate odds of needing to defend oneself with a gun at least once during all the years of carry as 1 - (odds of NOT needing to defend oneself with a gun during all the years of carry) = 100% - 97% = 3%

WHAT AND HOW TO CARRY
Of course there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this, and there are pros and cons of any firearm selection and carry arrangement.  Personally, I have several different options, but my most used is a S&W AirLite in a pocket holster.

Pros:
- Very light
- Can be carried in almost any pants or jacket, as long as the pockets are large enough
- Very good concealment (as long as one's clothes aren't ridiculously tight, the pocket holster breaks up the outline of the gun and printing is a non-issue)
- No cover garment or carry bag required
- Inherent reliability and operational simplicity advantages of a DA revolver over a semi-auto
- Many people walk around with their hands in their pockets - you can grasp your gun without making any "suspicious" movements

Cons:
- Recoil is brutal with full power .357 mags
- Only five rounds (make 'em count and always have a plan B)
- Fixed sights, short sight radius, and heavy DA trigger pull may make accurate shooting more difficult (but with practice, it is my opinion that most people can become reasonably proficient at hitting a man-sized target at 5-7 yards)
- Drawing from a pocket is often not particularly fast (but practice will improve draw speed, and the element of surprise would generally be an advantage)

[Lynn LeFey]

Thank you for the write-up. I calculate the odds a good deal lower than 3%, but factor in that a lot of violent crimes are domestic (which I don't have any fear of), and a very large number are based on where you live or travel, and have done what I can to minimize risk there.

I like the simplicity and reliability of revolvers, particularly double-action, and haven't entirely ruled them out. However, reliability on modern semi-autos is so close to a revolver as to be a negligible difference, and if you get s double action with long stiff trigger pull, you effectively get the same safety measures as with a revolver, with a chambered round, along with more capacity. The only advantage I see of a revolver is the ability to fire it without drawing (from within a jacket or bag, for instance), and then there are serious accuracy concerns.

I shot the Ruger LCR in .38, and have fired lightweight .357s before. I wouldn't want to put a box of ammo through one at the range, but 5 for self defense I think would be quite doable. My groups with every subcompact semi-auto and lightweight revolver I fire are about 4" at 7 yards. But that's shooting at paper, which is notorious for not shooting back. I expect my group to open up considerably if i was in deep doo doo and the adrenaline is surging.

[nate j]

Yes, the 3% would be a population average, and being below the average in this case would certainly be a good thing.

I also agree that five rounds of .357 through a revolver that weighs less than 12 oz. empty is very doable, as that is what I most often carry.  But maybe not as much fun as some other options at the range.

It is certainly tough to predict just how much negative impact a real situation will have on accuracy, but 4" groups at 7 yards with your carry gun is solid IMHO, considering that (1) a 10"-12" group would yield a 100% hit rate on a typical adult male if centered COM and he is facing you, and (2) I take 7 yards as about the maximum realistic SD distance for a private citizen, with 3 yards or less more likely.

I hope you'll share your ultimate decision with us.  Best of luck with whatever you choose, and may you never have to fire it anywhere but the range.

[Lynn LeFey]

I take 7 yards as about the maximum realistic SD distance for a private citizen, with 3 yards or less more likely.

I hope you'll share your ultimate decision with us.  Best of luck with whatever you choose, and may you never have to fire it anywhere but the range.

Yeah, I think training at 7 yards is looking at the maximum likely range of encounter.

I ALSO hope that should I start carrying concealed, that pistol has a long and uneventful life outside of shooting ranges. Having your life threatened is terrible. Having to take someone else's life in defense is terrible, and all of the repercussions (legal, personal, and emotional) are terrible.