My look into CCW

[sambeaux]

I take 7 yards as about the maximum realistic SD distance for a private citizen, with 3 yards or less more likely.

I hope you'll share your ultimate decision with us.  Best of luck with whatever you choose, and may you never have to fire it anywhere but the range.

Yeah, I think training at 7 yards is looking at the maximum likely range of encounter.

I ALSO hope that should I start carrying concealed, that pistol has a long and uneventful life outside of shooting ranges. Having your life threatened is terrible. Having to take someone else's life in defense is terrible, and all of the repercussions (legal, personal, and emotional) are terrible.

Sorry, again, for being late and possibly replying to a dead thread. I was curious if your decision has been swayed one way or the other by the passage of shall issue in Illinois?

In my classes, we shoot at distances of 6, 10, and 15 feet. Most shootings will take place at contact distances and I try to stress to my students that they should not try to adopt a typical target shooting stance.

Another thing we cover in our classes, is what happens AFTER a shooting. We discuss the immediate aftermath as well as what may happen down the road. It's a very sobering part of the class. Our goal is to make people THINK about the responsibility that they are taking on. Among other things, we hope to give people the tools to avoid situations where they may need to use their guns and instill in them the knowledge that simply HAVING the gun is not enough. The gun won't save you. It's not a magic talisman. It is a tool, and one that must be used properly in order for it to enable you to protect yourself.

Anyway, enough about that.... Have you tried about any more concealed carry handguns? What are you leaning towards?

Sam

[Lynn LeFey]

Long before other gun news things became the hot topic of discussion, I saw this video...



In fact, about every video he has is a very good, sober, and rational discussion on the topic of firearm ownership (when it's not just a straight-up product review).

As a resident of Illinois, it has never been an OPTION for me to carry before. Now, it soon will be. That's what started this whole thing. I'm not certain I ever will get my CCW, but considering where I live, and that we have to drive through East St. Louis to get to and from our friends' house on the weekends, I don't think it's an altogether bad idea. It SEEMS like all surrounding states will honor Illinois CCW licensing, but that's not clear yet. If not, we'll have to ALSO get Florida non-resident licensing.

I don't think of a firearm as my only means of self defense. It's just one more bit of it. I do find it wildly illogical that I can get CCW, but it's illegal to get a telescoping baton. Honestly, against someone with a knife, I'd rather have the baton. The gun might stop them... eventually, but I'd rather not get cut up, and a baton vastly increases my odds of being able to disarm or disable someone with a knife... and NOT necessarily inflict lethal (but not all that rapid) injury/incapacitation.

CCW licensing MAY also open up the possibility of carrying a taser, in the future, which could be a good option.

What I REALLY need is a combination pepper-foam sprayer/taser/stun gun/handgun/flashlight/laser sight/can opener/fish scaler/etc.

In all seriousness, though. No, I haven't gotten around to shooting any more options. I think I'm pretty well settled on a sub-compact 9mm, and that's about as far as it's gone. Reading lots of reviews, watching lots of videos on youtube on various guns, waffling, changing my mind, fretting over costs, thinking about use for home defense, etc.

EDIT: What I'm leaning toward... I have to say, I really like the Springfield XD sub. when we were done with everything else, we had two rounds left, and I did a rapid double-tap with it, just to spend the rounds. Turns out they were  only an inch apart, and just to either side of the bullseye. that gun points very naturally for me, and just felt great. the ambidextrous mag drop is nice since I'm a lefty, too. And the fact that it comes with 2 mags (13 cap and a 16 cap) is nice.

[Mr. Whippy]

EDIT: What I'm leaning toward... I have to say, I really like the Springfield XD sub. when we were done with everything else, we had two rounds left, and I did a rapid double-tap with it, just to spend the rounds. Turns out they were  only an inch apart, and just to either side of the bullseye. that gun points very naturally for me, and just felt great. the ambidextrous mag drop is nice since I'm a lefty, too. And the fact that it comes with 2 mags (13 cap and a 16 cap) is nice.

For self defense, that's one of the primary selection criteria.  IMO, you've probably found your gun.

[Lynn LeFey]

For self defense, that's one of the primary selection criteria.  IMO, you've probably found your gun.

Unless I can find another pistol that costs less and shoots better, I think you're right.

My husband said he preferred the S&W Shield, but we've decided there's no reason we need to shoot the same guns, as long as we're both using the same cartridge (both are 9mm). 9 is also about the second cheapest round, after the .22LR.

Here are my groups with the Springfield XD sub. Range was 7 yards.

This is my 10-shot group. This was taking my time in aiming.


And here's the double-tap. Looks more like about a  1 1/2" spacing, but still excellent, IMO. That was with about a 1 second delay to acquire target starting with the pistol on a table (I didn't have a holster from which to draw).

[NutSAK]

As a side point, sorry NutSAK, we've got you beat in Vermont. No permit, you don't even have to be a resident. The rules are if you can buy it, aren't drinking, and don't carry it into a school, hospital, state or town office building, court house or hospital, you can carry pretty much anything anywhere. So long as it is under six feet tall.

My apologies for the late reply, but it appears you've missed my point--reciprocity. 

You should move to MO.  It's not far, and has the best reciprocity of any state. 

A Vermont resident can only legally carry in 4 states.  A MO resident with a permit can legally carry in 37 states.  So, no, I don't believe you "have me beat".

[Lynn LeFey]

Sorry for the thread necro.

This has been a LONG process for me, but I purchased a pistol Thursday that will be my CCW weapon, should I ever decide to carry. While it wasn't my ideal choice, it was on a list of reasonable contenders, and it came down to being available for a very good price. In addition to a possible CCW pistol, it will be my home defense weapon.

I got a Ruger LC9. We rented one some time back, and my groups were very similar to those of the XD. It's not quite as nice, but certainly nice enough, and while it has no rail, it has a good number of options for laser sights.

We are still looking for reasonable prices on the CCW Permit classes.

[Fattsgalore]

Ruger's are good firearms with excellent warranties and from what I heard excellent customer service if anything arises.
I prefer Glocks and Sigs though.

I live in Florida so I'm OK where ever I go. Weird fact. The state of Vermont doesn't allow their citizens to CCW, yet they recognize my states CCW. So I can carry a gun in Vermont yet not the people who live there, weird...Not complaining, just weird.

[Lynn LeFey]

Due to weird reciprocity issues, I'd get a Florida non-resident CCW as well as Illinois CCW. Between the two, it would cover any state I'd ever travel through, realistically.

As much as everyone loves Glocks, and I understand their reputation, they are simply uncomfortable to me. I think the size of my hand simply doesn't work well with their double-stack design. I wish I could like them. I know loads of folks do, and they're good guns, well supported, with tons of aftermarket stuff. We've fired the 26, and the 19. Weirdly, I HAVE fired a couple 9mm doublestacks that seem to fit my hand, the kel tec p11 and the Sig p226.

I didn't like the Sig p938. I don't like the 1911 style setups personally, and wow... they're crazy expensive. And while I did like the p226, it's still kind of crazy expensive, and not really a CCW piece. A friend of ours has the p226, and I shoot it when we go shooting together.

I know the Ruger LC9 has a few issues, most notably to me being it's LONG and heavy trigger pull, but the action was smooth, and I feel confident that I can mitigate pull issues with training. Otherwise, I don't think there should be any issues with it. Regardless of its low weight, I didn't find it to be overly snappy. I thought the sights were quite good. It's well supported for aftermarket stuff (most important to me being a possible laser sight later). And, has been mentioned, Ruger's great customer service.

Probably most important to me is that it is a slim, and lightweight piece. If I DO choose to carry, it should be about the least cumbersome option. It'll slide into my Maxpedition Fatboy bag nicely, or even into a pocket if need be.

I'll give some more feedback on the pistol once I've spent some time at the range with it.

EDIT: Just for the record, this was my grouping with the Glock 26 we shot on Wednesday. 7 yard range.


AND my group with a Springfield XD9

[Lynn LeFey]

Sorry if I keep jabbering about this...

One of the things that occurred to me is that for the price of the Ruger, which is a pretty darn affordable pistol, I could have had about 6 REALLY NICE multitools.

And, as a sort of interesting comparison, I have my Maxpedition bag loaded with some MTs as 'ballast', to simulate what the weight of the pistol would be. So, I could carry 3 full-size MTs for the same weight. Or maybe 4 if I carried a second magazine.

[captain spaulding]

GLOCK just released its first 380 available in the USA and its a single stack. Its the GLOCK 42. Not sure if you wan't a 380 for a carry gun, but I believe it is slimmer than the 26. Worth a look.

 

[nate j]

Congrats on what should be nice piece.

And yea, it's a fact of life that guns are generally considerably more expensive than MTs.  Of course it is also natural that those of us who frequent this forum consider other purchases in terms of MT equivalents.

[captain spaulding]

Generally, unless you buy a Hi-Point. 

[Lynn LeFey]

Generally, unless you buy a Hi-Point. 

Hey, it's still more expensive than pretty much any MT. Maybe a MUT or if you buy a Charge TTi at Cabela's.

 

[captain spaulding]

Generally, unless you buy a Hi-Point. 

Hey, it's still more expensive than pretty much any MT. Maybe a MUT or if you buy a Charge TTi at Cabela's.

 

Speaking of, I still wan't a Camo Charge!!! 

[NutSAK]

Sorry if I keep jabbering about this...

One of the things that occurred to me is that for the price of the Ruger, which is a pretty darn affordable pistol, I could have had about 6 REALLY NICE multitools.

You'd have a hard time defending your life in a lethal-force situation with a multitool, or even six.

So, I must follow with the question, "What is your life worth to you?" 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yeah but it's a bitch to tighten screws, open bottles, connect wires, straighten plugs, trim branches and pick your teeth with a semi automatic.

Plus I know guys that can take down more folks with a PST than I could with a gun.

I'm not trying to be anti gun, I just think they have their time and place and I don't think you can compare the two.  After all, you can use a multitool to maintain a gun but it doesn't work so well the other way around.

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[Lynn LeFey]

I dunno. Superman would stand there fearlessly if someone shot at him. But he'd duck if someone threw a Wave at him. Right? I could just practice rapidly throwing heavy chunks of metal at people. 

CCW is certainly one of those things that would not be needed very often. Maybe not even ever, but if it ever WAS needed, not having it could be life threatening.

MTs are useful pretty much every day, but they can't do everything.

[NutSAK]

I'm not trying to be anti gun, I just think they have their time and place and I don't think you can compare the two.

My point exactly.  They're both very useful tools, but used for completely different purposes, so you can't compare them or their price.

I CCW almost daily, and I hope like hell I never have to use it.  It's somewhat similar to a fire extinguisher in that regard.

[ironraven]

Congrats Lynn!!

I looked at the LC9, not for me, but if it fits your hand, that is why we celebrate diversity on the firing line. Now for the great holster hunt- don't ask me how much I've spent on holsters that after a week or two I concluded didn't work, all I'm going to say is I could have bought a lot of SAKs with that money. Good luck on getting your permit, and here's to hoping some day, we'll have national reciprocity. 

And yes, NutSAK, super long delay, you do have us beat on reciprocity. That's why I"m looking to get a couple of non-resident permits, but since if I'm leaving the state for the rest of the country I have to go through Mass or NY... Well... They barely recognize their own papers. But what I meant was, we've got most of the rest of the country beat in that no papers are required- a free man is a responsible man and may make this decision for himself without the oversite or permission of the government of this state.

I live in Florida so I'm OK where ever I go. Weird fact. The state of Vermont doesn't allow their citizens to CCW, yet they recognize my states CCW. So I can carry a gun in Vermont yet not the people who live there, weird...Not complaining, just weird.

Uhmm... who told you that? As a Vermonter who has a very long familiarity with concealed carry in this state, I'm going to call that person out, and identify them as either woefully ignorant or willfully dishonest, and either way, no one worth taking the advice of. If you can legally own it, you can legally carry it, no permits, no registration, no fingerprinting or any of that other BS. Even in Burlington, despite the delusions of the town council.

In Vermont, your Florida carry card means exactly zero other than to vouch that people and computer records think you're a swell guy, not a danger to society, even if you don't know anyone around here. And unless you act like you're going to be a problem, we give every new person the benefit of the doubt. We're mellow like that.

[Cogito]

Get a Saiga Shotgun for the house and a bullet resistant vest

[captain spaulding]

Get a Saiga Shotgun for the house and a bullet resistant vest

Good on you. You can never be to prepared. 

[NutSAK]

a free man is a responsible man

Let's hope so.  I've seen free, responsible men who thought they could operate a handgun but couldn't, nor hit the broad side of a barn.  Some of those men were in my CCW class, and were proficient by the end of the course.  Training serves a purpose, and the requirement of a certificate is the only way I know of to ensure training.

[ironraven]

NutSAK, I agree with the first part of your statement, training is important. But formal classes can be a formality, I've seen some very good shots who self taught from a book with lots of range time, and many more who trained by parents or grandparents, who don't have a little piece of paper to hang on the wall. I've also watched a cop AD his weapon on the range and take off a toe, and I've had an instructor turn around after firing two shoots, loaded pistol still in hand, and pan the entire class with the muzzle while he was explaining something- the man talked with his hands and I almost talked with my bladder. And I've seen plenty of people who spend more money on classes (or had more spent on them) than I do ammo, who can still miss a Cadillac at seven yards.

Some classes are worth something for some people. A few are worth something to every shooter. And some are worth whatever the checks are made out for.

[Lynn LeFey]

So, I got the Ruger LC9 in hand today.

We'd rented this pistol before, but even with notes, and comparison, it never seems like pistols shoot the same once they're YOURS, so I was curious how I'd take to this piece.

Mmmm....

Well, first off, the range was full when we got there, and we were forced to use a rifle lane. They have a stupid BS rule that all shots in the rifle lanes must be fired from at least 10 yards (due to the backstop, or some other non-sense BS). Anyway... (sigh)... This meant that I couldn't shoot at the range I usually shoot at, and at which I compare all of my groups (7 yards). I don't expect the extra three yards made a huge difference, but it was just another frustration.

First group was not what I'd call stellar with this gun. 6" at 10 yards off-hand (I'm expecting 4" groups, but that'd be at 7yds). The pistol has a long, heavy trigger pull (about 10lbs), and it breaks WAY back against the frame. This isn't a problem initially, but seemed to cause hand fatigue rapidly, causing tremors.

Also... wow... even being a little heavier than the gun it apparently ripped off (the Kel Tec PF9), it is still rather painful to shoot after about 40 rounds. I guess that's the trade-off for a light CCW pistol. I had a hot-spot on my hand in the webbing between thumb and index finger.

So, taking all the time I could, I could manage about a 5" group. But firing rather rapidly, taking just enough time to reacquire the target, I kept an 8" group (minus one flier). That is just weird and wrong.

While the sites are fairly low profile, they're nice. 3-dot, and very easy for me to reacquire rapidly. I left the pinky extension plate on the magazine that came with it, and also have an extended 9-round mag. Both allow me full grip on the pistol. The only issues are the long trigger pull breaking way far back and the inherent limitations of a pistol with such a short site radius.

We also rented a Berreta Nano, and my husband has for-certain crossed that one off his list of potentials. I think he's going with the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield.

So, that's my initial impressions of the Ruger LC9. Not a fun range gun, but seems to have the accuracy I'm seeing from all of the sub-compact 9's I've shot.

EDIT: Also, I checked the pistol's fit in my Maxpedition bag, and it fits VERY nicely. Not too tight, not too much room.

[Cogito]

I feel like I should add this.  In case you actually need to use the gun for it's intended purpose, the target/s will more than likely be at less than 10 feet.  Also for every cartridge except 12 gauge shotguns you will need to fire twice into each target.

I thought it might help guide your practice so I added it.

I read it from some expert who did medical studies and things.  I think his name is Masaad Ayoob.

[ducttapetech]

Always double tap.

that's us mobile

[ironraven]

Every one of mine is different, even my two K-frames have their own individuality in how they feel. BUT... is that ten pounds an estimate or did you check it with a proper gauge? Because if it's really ten pounds, that's high, I was looking at one yesterday (thanks to you) and looked up the specs- it's only supposed to be like six and a half from what I could find and that sounds about right for the one I dry fired.

As for how many rounds to fire... Fire until the scary thing stops being scary.

[nate j]

a free man is a responsible man

Let's hope so.  I've seen free, responsible men who thought they could operate a handgun but couldn't, nor hit the broad side of a barn.  Some of those men were in my CCW class, and were proficient by the end of the course.  Training serves a purpose, and the requirement of a certificate is the only way I know of to ensure training.

I agree that the thought of folks with loaded guns and good intentions but poor aim is a sobering one.  Without (hopefully) getting overly political, though, that would be a lesser evil in my estimation than allowing the government to keep lists of citizens who carry firearms.  In addition, I worry that proficiency tests or training requirements open the door for those with a dogmatic hatred of weapons to try to make CCW de facto illegal by making the proficiency tests sufficiently challenging and or the training requirements sufficiently time- and or cost-prohibitive that virtually no one ultimately qualifies.

As for how many rounds to fire... Fire until the scary thing stops being scary.

Agreed, essentially.  If and once you decide to shoot, keep shooting until either the threat ends or your ammo supply is exhausted.

[Lynn LeFey]

My logical brain, and how I train, is to fire ONCE and assess. I do not intend to kill, only to stop a threat. By the same token, I understand that this is potentially a very lethal means of attack, and training to hit center mass could very likely result in death of the target. That doesn't mean I want to kill the target, so I am not a proponent of double-tap. I have trained to be proficient with the method, but don't intend to use it. Just like I've done some triple-tap, and don't intend to use that either.

That being said, I've never been put in a situation where I felt a need to defend myself with lethal force, so what the logical brain says when not under stress, and what I might actually do may not be similar. I've read plenty of accounts of people firing until the gun goes 'click', and only realizing it later.

Besides the unpleasant psychological ramifications of taking another person's life, there is a whole host of potential legal issues. NOT killing the target would be preferable if it can be avoided.

I don't want this to blow up into a big argument or lengthy debate on the subject, but that's my standing. I'm pretty sure I've looked at all avenues of thought on the matter, and there really isn't any point in trying to persuade me of another.

Now, that aside... I picked up a Pachmayr grip for the Ruger, and will be testing it out this evening. Since I'm bag-carrying, thickness of the pistol won't be a primary concern, so they shouldn't affect concealment. I'm hoping they tame the unpleasant recoil. I don't expect recoil to be an issue in a case of real-world need, but it sure becomes troublesome at the range, when I'm practicing with the pistol. 4 magazines' worth of ammo becomes uncomfortable.

My husband will also be picking up his CCW pistol tonight, an M&P Shield (also 9mm). We've tried pretty much every small 9 on the market at this point, and the Shield was his favorite.

[Lynn LeFey]

And the results on the range this evening...

Here's my group at 7 yards with the LC9. The Pachmayr grips helped immensely with discomfort from recoil.


Here's my group with my hubby's new M&P Shield. I think maybe I picked the wrong gun for CCW.


And lastly, I was having problems with a Beretta Neos I have, and painted the front site. That little change drastically improved my groups, from about 3 to 3.5 inches down to a bit under 2.