Damascus blades

[kirk13]

Caution: this could be contentious !

I have to be honest,one thing I've learnt here is the value of good but 'cheap' knives! SAKs,of both makes,Opinels,Moras etc are fairly low cost,but the quality of the steel of the blades is largely beyond question. On the rare occasions that I've had roughly similar Spydercos and Byrds, I've preferred the Byrds. Above and beyond the collectablity and geek value of the exotic steels,is there any real value to them for the every day MTOer in the street?

More over,what's the deal with Damascus blades?

In recent days there's been threads about a Damascus Explorer, and a Damascus Oppie. They're a rotten price compared to the standard item. The price Damascus Soldiers/Pioneers go for is unbelievable!

I Wiki'd Damascus Steel here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

And if its accurate,then the knives we're sold as Damascus arn't 

So,is this a Kirky moment? What am I missing here?

[dks]

Nowdays damascus looks nice and is a bit more complicated to make, compared to normal steel.
It used to be useful in making gun barbells before they learned to make them better with regular steel.
As you said the original damascus was something different altogether.
Note that most damascus is not SS, as opposed to the damascus used by Victorinox which is made from SS.

If you want a cheap decent damascus knife look at Rough Rider knives; they have a small damascus knife (make sure you get damascus, not just damascus look)

I have a few damascus knives but use none of them, as if you polish or scratch the blade the damascus look disapears and you need to use some sort of acid on it to get the look again...

End of babbling...

[Philby]

http://m.machinedesign.com/archive/damascus-steels-powder-metal?page=2

[kirk13]

@dks: thank you! But,if even partially damaged,the Damascus effect lessens?!

@Philby: thank you too,fascinating reading!

So in short,so far,its kind of the Harley Davidson of modern pocket knives? Very pretty,but in the real world will get its lamps kicked in by a tiny two stroke?

Sorry if I'm sounding dismissive,I don't mean to disrespect to those of you who own or covet modern Damascus blades,just trying to get a grip on the attraction of them.

[dks]

My understandig is that to achieve the damascus look the finished damascus blade has to be covered with a chemical oxidising the different layers in a different way (different end colour/shade)so that you can see the layers. If you scratch/polish the blade you remove that layer of oxidation so it just looks like solid steel.

I am attaching a picture of a damascus blank blade that I have. The blade part is etched, whereas the handle part is not and it looks like plain metal.
I, after taking the picture, removed some more of the etching so as to be able to glue handles on it securely.
You can restore the damascus look but you will need to know what chemical to use.

[Raukodur]

If you search these forum for damascus you will get similar threads, I have brought this topic up a few times when my interest in damascus rises, but then the exorbitant prices make me want to rant.

From the reading that I've done the original 'damascus' was a combination of a specific ore, and the technique with which blades were made from it, which included a degree of organic matter causing formation of carbon nanotubes in the finished product, contributing to its superior edge retention and cutting properties. Nowadays we no longer have the ore, nor the manufacturing technique.

Damascus that you can buy now is simply two metals of different hardness pattern welded together, with an acid etching to show up the two different metals, and give it the classical look. Since these items are sold at an incredibly premium price, they may be of superior quality to non-damascus blades sold by the same manufacturer, but they are definitely not worth the exorbitant prices charged.

I have come to the same conclusion as you, as I am sure many of us here have, just because a SAK is cheap, doesn't mean its blade is not one of the best you can buy. It may not have the best edge retention, but it is so easy to maintain and get it back to razor sharpness (as well as its superior corrosion resistance), that I don't really see why you would want anything else.

[Magic Bus]

Damascus steel?? I'd rather have a pint and a bag of crisps 

[tattoosteve99]

PCB etch solution works great to see damascus. Also depending on how long you leave the acid on also determines how deep the look goes. Stainless damascus works the same way, essentially its a combination of dissimilar steels, that are forged together to get a nice look.   

[PTRSAK]

If you are wanting to play around with making Damascus blades, the carbon steel type is not expensive, I got a bar from an eBay seller in India for $45 delivered.

It's big enough for about six 93mm blades.

[Syph007]

I had one of those charges with carbon damascus blades gifted to me.  The work on the blade grinds was nice, but the quality of the steel is pretty poor.  The powder formed stainless stuff is about 100 times nicer, and equally more costly too though.  This example was etched so extremely the valleys in the pattern are at least 1mm or more deeper.  Its not very professional.  I believe this was from one of the ebay sellers making them.

I would call this a downgrade from the nice s30v blade this normally comes with.

[Philthy]

I like damascus blades that have a good core, not just randomly put together.  Something VG-10 or better with a 60+ HRC.

San mai  is just as good, it's the same sort of thing. 

You can see the difference on damascus or san mai blades even if they aren't treated but the difference is  really subtle.

[Nhoj]

If you are wanting to play around with making Damascus blades, the carbon steel type is not expensive, I got a bar from an eBay seller in India for $45 delivered.

It's big enough for about six 93mm blades.

That's a great knife! I still drool over it frequently!

[PTRSAK]

If you are wanting to play around with making Damascus blades, the carbon steel type is not expensive, I got a bar from an eBay seller in India for $45 delivered.

It's big enough for about six 93mm blades.

That's a great knife! I still drool over it frequently!

It'll go rusty... you better wipe it off.     

[Magic Bus]

Damascus steel?? I'd rather have a pint and a bag of crisps 

Sorry for the perhaps nonsensical reply. I was trying to say that damascus steel does nothing for me and I prefer plain old ordinary steel 

[kirk13]

Damascus steel?? I'd rather have a pint and a bag of crisps 

Sorry for the perhaps nonsensical reply. I was trying to say that damascus steel does nothing for me and I prefer plain old ordinary steel 

No,trust me,it was quite clear

[Raukodur]

What I would say, is that if I ever was tempted to buy damascus, I would always buy stainless, and if I could afford it, I would always buy Victorinox.

[Nhoj]

If you are wanting to play around with making Damascus blades, the carbon steel type is not expensive, I got a bar from an eBay seller in India for $45 delivered.

It's big enough for about six 93mm blades.

That's a great knife! I still drool over it frequently!

It'll go rusty... you better wipe it off.     

I can't wipe fast enough to get rid of the drool!

[Metal Mickey]

Damascus steel?? I'd rather have a pint and a bag of crisps 

Sorry for the perhaps nonsensical reply. I was trying to say that damascus steel does nothing for me and I prefer plain old ordinary steel 

It does nothing for me in a knife blade either
(but the world would be boring if we all liked the same thing) 

[Magic Bus]

Each to their own of course 

[Dem]

Looks pretty, but if I want a fancy multiple-metal blade and the purported benefits thereof, I'd sooner go with a high carbon core laminated with stainless like in good Finnish/Norwegian blades. Doesn't look as fancy but you end up with something ridiculously sharp and nearly indestructible.

That said, they're far from cheap. Pricing for a used Helle starts at around $80 and only goes up. But for a knife that'll last forever...

Dem

[Raukodur]

Likewise, if you actually want to spend a lot of money on a knife, and want function over form, Friction Forged knives seemed to be the real deal. Very clever manufacturing method. But very expensive...

[Philby]

Laminated steel knife from Sweden need not be expensive, I've got one of these and it's the best knife I've used! easy to get a razor edge and really durable http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hultafors-Craftmans-Heavy-Duty-GK-HULGK/dp/B004O9MIE4

[Raukodur]

So while I know a bit about damascus blades, I am generally ignorant, but always interested, in other good manufacturing methods.

So care to shed more light, if there is more light to shed, on what exactly is a laminated blade, and how the price can seem to be vary so much?

[jekostas]

So while I know a bit about damascus blades, I am generally ignorant, but always interested, in other good manufacturing methods.

So care to shed more light, if there is more light to shed, on what exactly is a laminated blade, and how the price can seem to be vary so much?

Same kind of deal as dasmascus - a harder core of steel sandwiched between softer, but tougher steels.  A lot of the price depends on how the pieces are attached and what steels are used.

[Raukodur]

Hmm so if I remember correctly, traditional samurai swords / katanas had the front part (sharp bit) of harder steel, with a core / back bit of softer steel. Welding the two together allowed the sword to have a very hard and so sharp edge, while still being very strong and not prone to breaking because of the softer and more flexible 'spine'.

And from what I have read, friction forged knives mimic this with their production process, resulting in a harder blade edge with a softer spine.

So what you are saying is that laminated knives do the opposite? They have the hard stuff in the middle, with the soft stuff on the outside? How does that work?

[bmot]

 

[Raukodur]

Just figured it out watching a youtube video on laminated knives, its the same process, you have a harder steel on the inside, with an exposed edge, wrapped in softer steel to give the blade toughness.

[jerseydevil]

(Image removed from quote.)


 

In reality, you'd have a splintered Mitsubishi falling along with the Catalina.