58mm colours

[gardenvalley]

The SAKWiki  indicates that there are now only 4 shades of orange and not 5 as previously thought, the Translucent Brown being Onyx which had faded.. This led me to carry out my own tests, the results of which are shown below.
The photos show Onyx and "translucent brown" and whilst not conclusive, other factors come in to play, namely the markings on the insides of the scales.
On the shield side the Onyx has a number wheel with "1" being indicated and opposite that the number 14, the "trans brown" has no wheel and the number 16.
On the other scale the Onyx has another wheel indicating "1" and the number 8, the "trans brown" has no markings.
If the scales were the same colour wouldn`t they have the same markings?
Both sets of scales have 3-digit numbers (004) along their length but so do the Orange and Blue so I don`t think that`s relevant. Thoughts?

[Fattsgalore]

Nice observation...Maybe it's just the difference between older a newer scales. I'm no expert to be honest so I wouldn't personally know.

I do know I need a black onyx so bad. I have a light brown and dark brown one. Need one that is truly a translucent black for my 58mm collection.

[RedRamage]

GardenValley and I have already had a bit of discussion about this.  I'm the one who made the changes on the wiki page, but of course this is based on my best information and I can't say for 100% certain that this is right or wrong.  I made the decisions to make the change to the wiki page based on two things...

First, I've never seen a new 'translucent brown' nor have I ever seen a catalog entry for this color.  Of course, this doesn't mean that it was never made.  It's possible that it's just very obscure. 

Second, I can say with 100% certainty that Onyx does fade to a brown color. The first picture that I've attached to this post is of my onyx knife that was stored in a case with a glass top.  This is the same knife, not too different knives.  As you can see, the top, which was exposed, it significantly faded and brown shaded compared to the bottom.

Having said this, I did say to GV that I hope I'm wrong.  I really do like the brown translucent color and I hope that it was a produced color rather than just a faded color.  And after examining my knives, I've perhaps found some bit of evidence that I am wrong.  If you look at my second picture you can see what I thought was my Brown Translucent (Left side) next to my faded onyx (right).  As you can see the left side as a richer, almost orange hue to it.  The right side is almost a "grey brown" (for lack of a better term).  There's no question there is a difference to this color.  But... is this difference in color based on a different knife?  Or is it a different degree of fading?  That I can't say for sure.

But... I can experiment!   the last picture shows my "translucent brown" on the left, and my faded onyx on the right.  In the middle in another translucent brown/black that I got used off eBay years ago.  The lighting wasn't great so it almost looks like this knife is between the other two in hue... but really it's very, very close to the faded onyx in the shade of brown.  What I'm going to do with this center knife is tape the bottom with painters tape, and then place it in a window sill for the next couple of weeks.  Then I'll take a picture with the three again.  I'll repeat this process over the next couple of months.  Hopefully this will show either this center knife changing more towards the knife on the left in hue or not changing at all and staying more like the one on the right.  Either way this experiment should hopefully help us figure out conclusively if this is it's own color or just a faded black.

[ICanFixThat]

My thoughts.

• I'm not convinced of the black fading to weird orange color was for real, but I've not totally discounted the possibility either
• If there was a problem with the colorfastness of a batch or more of scales, the issue would be fixed by now and there would not likely be any way to test this theory unless special conditions where required to trigger the reaction, and that we could get scales that had not been triggered.  I see this as unlikely to happen, so I think the mystery will remain for a while until we get more documentation.
• The number wheels inside the scales would likely only represent the specific injection mold, and not likely to have anything to do with the color.

[gardenvalley]

The point made by RedRamage about not having seen a reference to Trans Brown in any Victorinox catalogue is significant and would be good enough for me to accept that it is indeed Onyx which had faded. I understand that there is another more recent Onyx-scaled model, the Voyager, where the scales are made from a slightly different type of cellidor with a rougher, almost matt finish but I haven`t seen one so am unable to compare.
RedRamage, I look forward to your results

[ICanFixThat]

The test will be interesting, and I don't discount that the official name could be different, but remain skeptical that one that was clearly black produced all the shades we have seen not only in 58mm, but in 91mm where this idea started.  Like I said though if there was a color fastness issue all the scales affected have probbaly already changed.  In a change like this it would technically be more than an issue of typical fading usually caused by sunlight.  I'm not too worried about this in general, but it's interesting for those trying to collect the colors.

[RedRamage]

Well I agree that I don't think it's a problem in general.  I would argue that it's a light issue though, not a sunlight issue.  My Onyx 58mm in the first picture was in a display case in my office area in my basement, exposed to light, but not sunlight. 

It really comes into play for collectors in two counts.  First, those who are just general collectors will want to make sure that an onyx knife in their collection is not stored in an way that is exposed to light.  Perhaps newer models won't fade or fade as much, but it's probably better to be safe than sorry.

Second, obviously, for those of us who are color collectors it becomes a matter of determining if the brown is just faded black or really brown.

[Fattsgalore]

@garden, the Onyx scaled electronic scales are made from nylon not celliodor. Pretty sure the Swisscards are made from the same material, and it most definitely doesn't fade.

Call this one my Nite Watchman

[ICanFixThat]

Well I agree that I don't think it's a problem in general.  I would argue that it's a light issue though, not a sunlight issue.  My Onyx 58mm in the first picture was in a display case in my office area in my basement, exposed to light, but not sunlight. 

It really comes into play for collectors in two counts.  First, those who are just general collectors will want to make sure that an onyx knife in their collection is not stored in an way that is exposed to light.  Perhaps newer models won't fade or fade as much, but it's probably better to be safe than sorry.

Second, obviously, for those of us who are color collectors it becomes a matter of determining if the brown is just faded black or really brown.

I agree with what you've said. I'm just noting I'm skeptical based on  the current evidence, but as we know in the SAK world that changes quickly.  If there is a problem Sunlight usually triggers this issue in fastness that is triggered by light specifically usually sunlight triggers it much faster and to a larger degree often it is not triggered at all by artrificial light, but this is just general.  Light is often a trigger, but general age can be as well, however at least two people claimed knives they suspected of changing were not exposed to light.  Also in general if light was the main issue, I feel it is likely more people would have noticed it earlier and made the connection.  So while you can fade most things in the sun, the problem we are looking for is not natural fading and might be difficult to confirm, although I'm sure Victorinox would know if there was a problem with collor fastness rather than the color they got was not exactly as expected, or the color was intentional.  So if age was the trigger then finding one to test would not be possible.

Anyway, just my thoughts, were all just looking for information, and I'm careful about tests that may not test what they are suppose to because I've had a lot of experience with those.

@garden, the Onyx scaled electronic scales are made from nylon not celliodor. Pretty sure the Swisscards are made from the same material, and it most definitely doesn't fade.
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2510/2y63.jpg
Call this one my Nite Watchman

That is a different scale as you noted, and although the color is labeled Onyx it is not the one in question.  Yes those scales are quite robust which is why they are used with the electronic modules, but the material has been thinned considerably to fit the modules, so don't torture them too much.  I love those scales by the way, they should make them for all knives without the electronic modules.  I don't really care from the translucent Cellidor in general, but they look good on some knives in some colors.  The translucent Nylon just look good period to me, especially the black ones.

[RedRamage]

One more point to add: I will say that these days, finding translucent brown seems far more common than it did in the past when I was originally collecting the colors.  This would be consistent with the idea that Faded Onyx is really the brown.  As more Onyx and bought/used, more would fade to brown, and so more would be available.

Still, there's no question that what I KNOW to be a faded onyx in my collection is a very different shade of brown than what I think might be a translucent brown in my collection.  There's just too many unknowns right now I guess.  All we know for 100% certain is this:

1. There exists a color, Translucent Black - or Onyx.
2. At least some of these scales have faded to a shade of brown.

Unfortunately, there are lots of unknowns:

a. Was there ever a Translucent Brown made?  (If so when?)
b. Does the translucent black fade to the same shade as presumed Translucent Browns?
c. Do all Onyx scale fade or was this just a subset of Onyx that fade?
d. If only some Onyx fade, which ones (Years?  Models?)
e. Do nylon Onyx scales fade?
f. What triggers the fade?  Is it just light, and therefore a Onyx in a collection stored out of light won't fade, or will time make it fade even in the absence of light?

Short of some sort of official statement by Victorinox, I don't know that we'll ever get answers to all these questions.  My experiment might clear up question B.  If my 'grey-brown' knife fades in the sun to an 'orange-brown,' then I think we can conclude that (at least some) Onyx DO fade to the 'translucent brown' color.  Furthermore, if I can get my knife to fade to the orange-brown I think we can reasonably conclude that Translucent brown is NOT it's own color. This would be based on the the success of fading a Onyx to the orange-brown coupled with the lack of ever seeing a NEW translucent brown coupled with the lack of ever seeing a listing for Translucent Brown in a Vic Catalog.

However, it's worth noting that even if I'm NOT successful in fading my Onyx to an orange-brown, that doesn't rule out that some Onyx might fade to that color.  Perhaps it was only a small run that fade to that shade.  Perhaps it's only if they fade under florescent lighting that they go to the orange-brown and other light makes then grey-brown.  All my experiment can prove is (at least some) Onyx do fade to orange-brown.  It can never prove that no Onyx fade to orange-brown.

[RedRamage]

Alright, one week into the Fading experiment and here's the results.  So far, totally inconclusive.  It does appear that the knife maybe be a little lighter brown than it was before, but not significantly.  Of course, Michigan hasn't seen tons of sun, so that might be a factor too.

Note that you will see a lighter line down the right hand side of the knives (bottom side of the composite pic).  Ignore this please... this is a result of the main lighting source being towards to the left.  The light is being collected and reflected more in the curve of the plastic along the right from this light source.  Examining the knives personally does NOT show a lighter line along the right.

[gardenvalley]

There is enough evidence here for me to accept that what appears to be Trans Brown is faded Onyx but I will change my view if anyone can show a reference to Trans Brown in any Victorinox catalogue.
I now have to decide what to replace the Trans Brown/Onyx with in my display which is set up for 32 knives in 4 rows of eight and is fairly inflexible with the different shades all neatly grouped and symmetric. 

Thanks to RedRamage for the information

[RedRamage]

Well really there is still 32 colors.

My original collection of 32 included Trans. Brown as a color but it was BEFORE SilverTech (translucent white/clear) was made, so replace the Trans. Brown with SilverTech and we're back to 32.

[rmagralha]

Reinier has a good diversity of translucent colors, at least for the 91mm models, maybe he can help.

[RedRamage]

Hey rmagralha...

I've loving your Avatar.  Do you have a big version of that?  If so, can you post it in this thread?
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,50959.0.html

I'm trying to get a list of colors of Alox there.

[rmagralha]

Hey rmagralha...

I've loving your Avatar.  Do you have a big version of that?  If so, can you post it in this thread?
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,50959.0.html

I'm trying to get a list of colors of Alox there.

Sure, no problem, take a look at here:

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,44512.25.html

Is a thread that I started with my collection, and has this picture in a larger size.

 

[RedRamage]

Okay, on a related, but different note... I finally got a 58mm SilverTech.  Very gorgeous looking knife, but also NOT what I was expecting.  I had assumed it was just like the translucent colors, but clear instead of tinted.  But obviously this isn't what it is. 

I think one could make the case that this should NOT be included in the list of 'solid colors' offered by Victorinox.  There is a definite and deliberate pattern to the coloration of this knife.  Parts of it are obviously clear, but there are parts that are silver colored.  So in someways this is no different than a camo colors knife... two (or more) colors with a definite pattern to it.

That said I think a case can also be made that this does belong among the solid colors.  Even the 'clear' parts have the silver color too them as because you never see anything but the silver color or silver metal. 

Yeah, I know there isn't an sort of official check list from Victorinox or any governing body that makes something official or un-official so it's really just what each individual collector does or doesn't want to collect.  But I still think it's an interesting debate.  Anyone want to weigh in?

[gardenvalley]

As previously stated, my 58mm display was planned and put together on the basis of there being 32 shades so you can imagine my disappointment (or not) on discovering that were really only 31 . I did consider the Silvertech but dismissed it because it hangs "upside down" (yes, I know, petty and OCD) and so have decided that a nylon economy-scaled Classic will fill the gap nicely whilst maintaining symmetry, continuity and order.

[RedRamage]

I did consider the Silvertech but dismissed it because it hangs "upside down" (yes, I know, petty and OCD) and so have decided that a nylon economy-scaled Classic will fill the gap nicely whilst maintaining symmetry, continuity and order.

While I think that's a very valid reason to exclude it, I wonder what you'd think it hung 'right side up'?  Fortunately my case is not 'keyring geometry' dependant, so it's still a possibility for me.  But my own version of OCD makes me question it 'cause, as I said, it isn't technically one solid color.  Ahh the silliness of collecting, no?

Two other options for you to consider:

1. Move the scales.  I've never tried with this a classic but I have popped off the scales on other knife and replaced them with other scales.  With a classic as they are symmetrical it should, theoretically, be possible to turn them upside down and put 'em back on.

2. Victorinox released a Rosewood Scaled Classic in the past.  While not an cellidor scaled model, and therefore not part of the 'colors' collection, it isn't a nice one looking knife and an officially released model with toothpick/tweezers, etc.

[RedRamage]

Time for a two week update...

I'm not seeing anymore extensive fading... but of course it's still a relatively short time and we're still in Michigan without copious amounts of sun.  While the middle knife might be a little lighter, one this is it does NOT seem to be getting that rich orange color that I'm seeing in the knife on the left.  It's still what I'd call "grey-brown" rather than "orange-brown."  This seems to put some weight on the idea of a separate translucent brown color.  Still too early to call it though... I'd say we'll need at least two or three months of time considering the lack of good sun we get here.

Thoughts?

[RedRamage]

BTW, garden... I did some surgery on my silver tech.  I think the results ended up really good.  I used some tips user gave me in this thread: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=51326

Flipped the LED scale and pushed it back on.  Looks good, and the LED still works as well.

Obviously this isn't practical for hanging on a keychain, but for a collection that looks better with the logo at the top, it works well!

[gardenvalley]

That is indeed a solution which i have considered but it would mean buying a fairly expensive and very useful knife and relegating it to display duties. I intend to complete my display with a red nylon Classic which fills the gap and adds to the under-represented red contingent. Only 2 more to get but they are proving to be quite elusive, in fact I`ve seen more Sea Pioneers than 58mm Sage Green on the bay recently !

[singleshot03]

This is all very interesting and a number of poeple have done a great deal of work trying to determine available colors.  Does Victorinox not have a historian or public affairs person who could provide all the color data? 

[RedRamage]

I've emailed in the past and not gotten a response from them.  I think part of the problem is that there isn't really a historic record of this sort of thing.  I don't think the collector market is big enough to really warrant keeping well documented, accurate records.  Certainly in the decades in the past this was true.

All the information that I've obtained was from forums, a few books, and lots and lots of help from other collectors.  So far I haven't found anything beyond the 32 colors (though I am curious about that other green you got off eBay).

The 32 is really something I put out there years ago after the work of collecting them.  I never found any beyond those 32 so that's why I said there were that many.  But I'm certainly not infallible, and because it's just my opinion there's certainly room for debate.

[RedRamage]

Okay, on a related, but different note... I finally got a 58mm SilverTech.  Very gorgeous looking knife, but also NOT what I was expecting.  I had assumed it was just like the translucent colors, but clear instead of tinted.  But obviously this isn't what it is. 

I think one could make the case that this should NOT be included in the list of 'solid colors' offered by Victorinox.  There is a definite and deliberate pattern to the coloration of this knife.  Parts of it are obviously clear, but there are parts that are silver colored.  So in someways this is no different than a camo colors knife... two (or more) colors with a definite pattern to it.

Just want to raise this question again... attached is a pic of the monochrome colors.  I think it's especially telling when you look at the silvertech compared to the onyx.  There is a definite pattern, a decoration to the Silvertech that is NOT present in the other translucent colors.  I'm going to say that this does NOT belong in the list of solid colors.  The fact

If we agree that SilverTech should be removed and if we agree that the Translucent Brown is really faded Onyx (still some debate here), then we're down to 31 colors...

BUT, thanks to some good work by SingleShot, a new shade of green was discovered, which brings us right back up to 32!  You can see more about the Forest Green here: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=51518

[RedRamage]

I made the following changes to the Colors Page on the wiki: (http://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Color+Palette)

The orange group includes four shades including some browns. The group is: Translucent Orange, Taupe, Electric Orange, Translucent Brown, and Rust. Upon further examination and research, some Translucent Brown knifes are definitely a faded Onyx rather than a separate color by itself. There is continuing debate regarding if all Trans. Brown are faded Onyx. (See the link in the first comment at the bottom of the page for pictures and discussion.)

The green group from Victorinox provides six shades: Pale Green, Retro Green, Hunter Green, Emerald (Translucent Green), and Sage. Hunter is often referred to as simply Green. Not pictured is Forest Green. It's a lighter color green than Hunter, but still much darker than the Pale Green.

The monochrome groups covers all the shades from white to black. They are: White, Gray, Onyx (Translucent Black), and Black. Not pictured is a scale called SilverTech. This scale is a mix of translucent clear with some area filled in with silver. Because there is a pattern to this knife it isn't technically a solid color, though some may include it with this group.

If anyone feels this info is in error, please let me know.  I think we're "officially" still at 32 colors.  Subtract Trans. Brown and Add Forest Green.  While I briefly put Silver Tech in there, I'm included to exclude it after getting my hands on one and seeing the pattern in it.

[RedRamage]

So here's 5 weeks in the window.  It's starting to take on a warmer color... though it's still a long way from looking like the orange brown on the left.

[RedRamage]

After about two and a half months in the window I think it's definitely starting to get some more "orange" color to it.  Still not as far to the knife on the left, but it's starting to lose the 'grey' a little more.

Back in the window for a while then I'll get some pictures in mid or late June.

[stressmaster5000]

Any updates to this thread yet RedRamage? I am going to take some photos of my Translucent Brown as compared to an Onyx soon. I also have another color variant to pose, White.

[GigaHz]

I got these from CVH with a buy of a bunch of scales. It looks to me like chocolate milk color. Not white.