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Help! Shooting related question

kirk13 · 26 · 2495

00 Offline kirk13

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Help! Shooting related question
on: July 08, 2014, 01:14:32 AM
As most of you know,I'm a keen air rifle shooter. But I've got a problem,and I'm stumped! Really,really stumped.

So here's the story so far: after a complete SNAFU with my BSA,I bought a Weihrauch HW97 springer. Initially I had a 3-9x40 Leapers scope fitted. The scope needs re-zeroing every so often because of the two way recoiling of the piston. No big deal.   

That is until about a month ago,when the vertical adjustment of the scope seemed to go. I'd zero the gun on Monday night,and from the bench put tight five shot groups into a 15mm target,but by Sunday,the zero would go wandering,maybe up to an inch and a half out.

I replaced the Leapers with a Nikko Sterling Mountmaster. It still has the same problem! Really,what the smurfing hell?!

I had a chat with some of the guys at the club tonight,and two theories were put forward:
1) the scope is loosing zero due to impacts in transit
2) the recent warm weather,and carriage in cars  is over heating,thus allowing the adjustment gears to slip.

So,any ideas? Any of you had similar problems,and how did you solve them?
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us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 01:37:23 AM
Say you zero the scope and all is well for that shooting session. You bring it back and it is shooting in a different location then before. Then you zero again. Bring it back and its off a second time. Is that "off" location the same as the first time you noticed it. Basically if it was a inch up and half a inch right the first time was it a inch up and half a inch right the second time as well?

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us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 02:01:48 AM
Hmmm..... I'm wondering if it's the bedding of the rifle Kirky.  Have you checked to see if the stock is making any contact with the barrel at all, or if the action might have shifted a bit in the stock?  I'm assuming that there's no lightening cuts to the action, which is what's usually blamed for the most famous example of a wandering zero.  For the record, I've never been able to shoot a No.5 MkI accurately enough to prove or disprove the theory.  Bloody thing kicks like a mule!  :ahhh  Its' bigger brothers No.1 MkIII and No.4 are much more docile.  :tu:  Anyhow, two scopes doing the same thing makes it sound like the bedding is off to me.  A sudden batch of warm and humid weather rolling through as this occurs would make me look at the stock even more.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 02:03:44 AM by jerseydevil »
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 02:03:58 AM
Hmmm..... I'm wondering if it's the bedding of the rifle Kirky.  Have you checked to see if the stock is making any contact with the barrel at all, or if the action might have shifted a bit in the stock?  I'm assuming that there's no lightening cuts to the action, which is what's usually blamed for the most famous example of a wandering zero.  For the record, I've never been able to shoot a No.5 MkI accurately enough to prove or disprove the theory.  Bloody thing kicks like a mule!  :ahhh  Its' bigger brothers No.1 MkIII and No.4 are much more docile.  :tu:  Anyhow, two scopes doing the same thing makes it sound like the bedding is off to me.

That's what I was getting at with my question as well.
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us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 02:06:21 AM
Yeah with two scopes doing the same thing, I'm not thinking it's the scopes themselves.
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 02:07:24 AM
Yeah with two scopes doing the same thing, I'm not thinking it's the scopes themselves.


Exactly my thoughts.
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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 02:08:56 AM
I'm perhaps thinking of a droopy barrel.  Are you having to make serious upwards adjustment to the scopes?

This says it far better than I ever could:

What is barrel droop? - Airgun Academy Episode 19
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ph Offline dmanuel

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 11:19:50 AM
Could be a number of things, but first thing I would start with is making sure that your bases and rings are tight. Can't tell you the number of scopes I've "fixed" for customers just by tightening down the mounts. Also make sure and tighten down the action in the stock. Next barrel droop, stock could be pushing into the barrel, stock could be improperly sealed and allowing it to expand and shrink with moisture content, or bedding of the action could be the issue. If you are still experiencing the problem after these checks, and they aren't the issue, then I would invest in a good torque wrench and check your action screw periodically. You may have the action screw compressing the stock and then it is changing shape in the heat, making the action itself wobble in the stock with less pressure on it. If that is the case a simple trunnion or pillar bed will fix the issue.

Your Nikko shouldn't be losing zero to either of the reasons you put forward. Short of you dropping it or putting it through extreme heat change that would be an indicator of a pretty poor optic.


nz Offline RimfireNZ

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 11:29:52 AM
I was about to say Leapers and Nikko Stirling are very low end brands and that air rifles are notorious for busting scopes and that it might be worth getting a dedicated air rifle scope or something a bit nicer... but if two scopes did it straight after each other it sounds a little suspect.

I hate scope problems... I'm having issues with my 6-20 Weaver Grand Slam on my 7mm at the moment :(

Is your rifle one where you pull the barrel down to cock it? The barrel isn't loose or wiggly is it?


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 12:03:55 PM
I was about to say Leapers and Nikko Stirling are very low end brands and that air rifles are notorious for busting scopes and that it might be worth getting a dedicated air rifle scope or something a bit nicer... but if two scopes did it straight after each other it sounds a little suspect.

I hate scope problems... I'm having issues with my 6-20 Weaver Grand Slam on my 7mm at the moment :(

Is your rifle one where you pull the barrel down to cock it? The barrel isn't loose or wiggly is it?

No, Kirky's rifle is an underlever (a Weihrauch 97 to be exact). :)
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 11:17:42 PM
Gents,thanks for all the answers and suggestions.

I'll go through this again in the morning when I'm sober  :whistle:
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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 11:44:55 PM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #12 on: July 09, 2014, 01:33:00 AM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #13 on: July 09, 2014, 02:01:39 AM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....

The 'issue' with the HW57 is that it's a spring powered air rifle and so need re-cocking after every shot. :-\  It's not particularly heavy as these things go, but it's also far from effortless.  I spent one happy afternoon doing this and sent around 200+ shots down range. :-[

This is only a guess of course, it might have been something else entirely, but the rifle seems like the best candidate to me. :shrug:
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #14 on: July 09, 2014, 02:22:04 AM
I see.  After 200 rounds downrange in an afternoon, I'd have a rather sore shoulder, and my left hand would probably be cramping a bit from working a bolt that often.  It's been a while since I've gone to the range and touched off that many rounds in one sitting...... :dd:  I did get out two Sundays ago with a buddy, and brought my 93 Spanish Mauser along for some fun.  I only had 40 loaded rounds of 7X57mm on hand though.  :(
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 11:12:48 AM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....

Had to look that one up: http://www.garandgear.com/m1-thumb

Ouch! :o

You can actually do something similar, if not nastier, with a spring powered air rifle.  There is a pretty grizzly video on youtube you can look up, but I'm not going to post it here.  Safe loading technique should prevent this from ever happening. 
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 11:35:12 AM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....

Had to look that one up: http://www.garandgear.com/m1-thumb

Ouch! :o

You can actually do something similar, if not nastier, with a spring powered air rifle.  There is a pretty grizzly video on youtube you can look up, but I'm not going to post it here.  Safe loading technique should prevent this from ever happening.

I'm guessing bear trap failure?
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


gb Offline bigstancwsw

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 02:14:06 PM
Just a thought, as its a HW97 which has a fixed barrel there should be no barrel droop. Are you useing a stop pin in the rear mount (the 97 has 3 holes for a pin). When you put the action into the stock always tighten the rear (trigger guard) screw before the front stock screws. After a shooting session always check the stock screw tightness, they can work loose on a springer. Hope this helps. Stan.


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 02:20:37 PM
Guys,again thanks for the responses!

@Capt Spalding and JD: The bedding of the gun is fine,it's not been altered since I scored a new PB about six weeks ago. The first stock the 97 was in had issues of this nature,so it's the first variable I check! Interesting stuff about the No5 service rifle though!

@dmanuel: D'oh! :facepalm: :twak: :megaslap: You might be onto the winner. Had a look this morning,and think I could see evidence of movement of the scope within the mount,tried the lock screws,and lo and behold! I've painted a line longitudenly along the scope and the mount,hopefully this will indicate any further movement,should it happening.

@RimefireNZ: Yeah,you have a point about the scopes I use being low end products. There are two reasons for this...

My first rifle was a BSA SuperSport,and they're legendary for breaking scopes,so I never seen the point in buying a good one! Secondary problem for the foreseeable future is budget. Having said that,I get results( when I'm on form) as good as folks using high end optics,so I'm disinclined to spending the dosh  :D

@Gareth: Barrel droop? I have pills for that,thank you very much!


Joking aside,I'm doing another comp on Sunday coming,so we'll see what happens next.
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 02:23:10 PM
Just a thought, as its a HW97 which has a fixed barrel there should be no barrel droop. Are you useing a stop pin in the rear mount (the 97 has 3 holes for a pin). When you put the action into the stock always tighten the rear (trigger guard) screw before the front stock screws. After a shooting session always check the stock screw tightness, they can work loose on a springer. Hope this helps. Stan.

Cheers Stan,yes I am using the stop pin. Given how the SuperSport used to throw the mounts along its rails,it's something I love dearly!

I have checked screw tightness,but that's interesting on the reassembly order,I'll remember that :tu:
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 02:27:57 PM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....

Had to look that one up: http://www.garandgear.com/m1-thumb

Ouch! :o

You can actually do something similar, if not nastier, with a spring powered air rifle.  There is a pretty grizzly video on youtube you can look up, but I'm not going to post it here.  Safe loading technique should prevent this from ever happening.

I'm guessing bear trap failure?

IIRC the guy had the butt braced on his hip, one hand on the barrel, one hand on the forward stock.  As he was just about to bring the barrel back to it's locked position the butt slipped off his hip casing the whole rifle to shoot backwards and his hand on the forward stock to shoot up towards the breach, thus removing about 1/2 an inch from the top of his thumb as the breach snapped shut on it. :-\
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 05:01:42 PM
Stupidly, I seem to have given myself a bout of tennis elbow from overdoing it with my WH57. :doh:
:oops:  Can't say I've ever experienced that issue from a rifle.  M1 Thumb isn't much fun though, that I know.....

Had to look that one up: http://www.garandgear.com/m1-thumb

Ouch! :o

You can actually do something similar, if not nastier, with a spring powered air rifle.  There is a pretty grizzly video on youtube you can look up, but I'm not going to post it here.  Safe loading technique should prevent this from ever happening.

I'm guessing bear trap failure?

IIRC the guy had the butt braced on his hip, one hand on the barrel, one hand on the forward stock.  As he was just about to bring the barrel back to it's locked position the butt slipped off his hip casing the whole rifle to shoot backwards and his hand on the forward stock to shoot up towards the breach, thus removing about 1/2 an inch from the top of his thumb as the breach snapped shut on it. :-\

Ouch!

I had a trigger seer fail during the cocking motion. Whole gun leapt from my hands. Fortunately it didn't hit any one. Bloody embarising thought!
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #22 on: July 13, 2014, 03:16:36 PM
Quick update

Went down to do the home shoot at Horsham this morning,done a new PB for the course on 46x60. Not a great score,but it was a PB,and every kill I missed,I missed...not the gun!

Thanks again everyone for your help :salute:
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #23 on: July 13, 2014, 03:19:18 PM
Congrats on the PB mate. :cheers:
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #24 on: July 13, 2014, 03:24:27 PM
Congrats on the PB mate. :cheers:

Cheers Gareth. Truth is,it should have been a 50,but there you go :shrug:

It was just a relief to feel confident about taking on a target! I was only three behind my partner,who also PB'd Horsham. Pity I was the only springer there >:D
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!


ph Offline dmanuel

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Re: Help! Shooting related question
Reply #25 on: July 13, 2014, 04:43:42 PM
Glad to hear that it is fixed. Please, please do not use loctite on your mounts. If you decide you have to then make sure and use the weakest stuff that you can find. Had one genius use an epoxy ... He was not happy when I had to drill out the receiver.

Another option you have is that you could stake the mounts. That will limit movement and you will have a visual check on whether or not it has moved. I do it with some of my own rifles, and a few for customers, that know they will not be moving around mounts or optics.


 

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