Bug Out / Get Home bag on a budget ($50)

[Act2uToo]

have you ever actually managed to make fire out of hand sanitiser?
I've tried buy never had any luck.

Maybe I've found some special non-alcoholic alcohol based hand sanitiser.

Yes I have.  It doesn't work very well, but in a desperate situation, such as having no dry tinder handy, it does work.  Make sure your sanitiser is at least 70% alcohol, and use lots.

[Lichtbote]

Lynn, if you have place enough at the end, und don´t mind the extra weight .... put some soap, hand-sanitizer, toothbrush or something that way in your bag. Just not to much.

In a stress situation which you are not used to handle it´s often comforting to have a piece "normality" to hold on, to remind you there will be better times again. Just as sweets for kids when they got hurt a little bit - just to console the hurt soul. Or maybe a small book/comic you love - to help you relax when you take a rest.

Oh, and a sort of ear plugs would be nice to have - helps to sleep, protects your ears when it´s windy, ...... can even be used as a bobber if you carry some fishing line and hooks with you. 

Toothpicks, q-tips, ...

I love the small mobile Fireplaces we had in the army - foldable, small, light, no fluids that could spill due to the use of dry fire-tablets. cheap too, google for "esbit-kocher".

[nate j]

With all the talk of dust masks and first-pass water filtration, I'll put a plug in for a large bandanna as a very versatile piece of kit.  It can be used as a dust mask, a water filter for large particles, a makeshift bandage, a dew collector, made into charcloth, as sun protection, emergency signal if brightly-colored, etc.

[ironraven]

but, if the poo really hits the fan as badly as you seem to be prepared of, a complete breakdown of anything .... you would be a prime target with all your stuff in your car.

I think you've misunderstood my statements and made very wrong assumptions, and I'm going to put that on the translation rather than reading this as an attack and intentional insult. I also think you've made a very poor conclusion about the concept of the Get Home Bag and the logic behind having a 72 hour bag.

I discourage begging because it is a fast road to being exploited or rounded up by the police and makes you look weak, and thus prey. I don't like looting because if martial law is declared looters get shot (and any time you send in soldiers to do police work, you have martial law) and I hate theives in general, but looters are the lowest form of thieves- hyenas and rats. And I hate both of these non-plans because they waste time- if I can put on my boots and pack and move with a plan of action in under ten, I've made more efficient use of my time. Because time is the one thing I can't recover, repair or replace. If I have no other choices, yes, I'll beg and I'll steal, but I'd have to be pretty far down to do either one. And I will abandon anything I can't carry if that is what the situation calls for, not just in a "disaster".

My get home gear in my car is to do just that, get me home on foot. About 15 miles from work, all of it fits in my EDC bag once I hang the side pouches on it and put on my boots. If that's a dumb plan, I shelter in place at work with that equipment, or at a friend's, or in my vehicle. It has also come in awfully handy when waiting for a tow truck at 2am on a backroad or when due to an accident the Interstate is a parking lot for two hours (missed the last one- truck full of cheese, cold cuts, ham, bacon and sausage had an electrical fire. Oh the humanity!). I've gotten lost on back roads and been so pissed and tired that I've just grabbed the blanket and slept until first light after I've found a turn around. And I make hot tea at the picnic table at work with the camp stove during lunch a couple times a week. This is all fairly rational to me.

The rest of it is in my apartment. And why do I keep it at my apartment... well.. This isn't end of the world, this is just welcome to rural America. I'm prepared for 10 days with nothing working at all other than air and gravity, and three more weeks of nothing working well.

Where I live, I need to lose two bridges to be stranded, and while they haven't gone out yet, at least once a year they are closed due to being under water or at least the road to them is. That's normal for here. Once I'm home, if I don't have to hump water over the ridgeline if the roads get undermined and take 10 days fix, so be it.  There are towns near me where they had to do that for six months after the biggest storm in a century pooched the roads up to them and/or took out the bridges.

MY parent's house is less than a ten minute walk from a major highway, but every two-three years they lose power for 5+ days and get triaged because while their road is right off that highway, there are only two houses on it. Many times I'd be helping to clear the road, and watching the line crews in convoys of six or seven trucks going back and forth for "more important" places. We've used saws and axes and horses and winches to have that road open before the town or the state did a thing, while waiting on the power crews. Same holds true today- more than once, rather than blocking traffic for half an hour to an hour to wait for the fire department or road crew just to show up for a tree across the road, my saw and hatchet have come out of my trunk, and before long someone gets stuck who has a chain saw, and we fix the problem NOW and traffic is moving in 15-20 minutes and when I get where I'm going I have clean clothes and a personal cleanup kit in my car.

If being equipped to deal with common things like this and having the mindset to do what it takes to fix those things that are a danger to me and those around me makes me an apocalyptic survivalist whacko, I'd really like to see your apocalypse- wanna trade? Mine is continental in scale, with sufficient disruption that you need many years to recover, during which time you can expect at least 50% die off and loss of most seed crops and breeding stock in the first year and a failure of most non-road infrastructure, with extensive social, economic and logistical disruption rippling off on a global scale. I don't plan for this type of thing, I just hope to die well in that case

[ironraven]

I'll put a plug in for a large bandanna as a very versatile piece of kit.  It can be used as a dust mask, a water filter for large particles, a makeshift bandage, a dew collector, made into charcloth, as sun protection, emergency signal if brightly-colored, etc.

I must be losing my mind if I'm forgetting this! Yes. I'm going to say two. Free. Find an old sheet thats getting pretty beat up. Find your scissors. Make a bunch of 18-20" squares, and maybe a shemagh or two. Or a towel that's getting ratty in places.

[mcniac]

I like long distance running and one thing that is always helpful is to have wool gloves (those cheap and small ones) a hat and spare socks. That always help.
Also two big trash bags. One for shelter the other to use as a poncho.

[glorn]

A kit like this.. For "getting home" has everything to do with how far home is and what is between you and home.

If it is 35 miles of forested mountain roads, then you need certain things.

If it is 35 blocks through dense cityscape, you need other things.

I'm not sure the generalist approach I see this kit going toward makes sense in any one scenario, and it has a lot of fluff for many scenarios.


Fork and spoon for "get home"? No. Food should be edible uncooked and without utensils.

You ditched the shampoo and body wash. Good. But there are numerous reasons to have lighter more sensible options: soap and baking soda

Soap cleans hair and skin both. Also clothes, wounds, etc. Hotel bars are free, wrapped, and tiny.

Baking soda cleans teeth and weighs little. So add the toothbrush back in. Just cut it down to the smallest size that works for you or get a travel version.

Consider that hygiene is important to health, mental well being, and comfort. Getting home may mean sheltering somewhere for a day or two.

Yes, simple ignition sources are important, but you need simple tinder as well. Cotton balls and Vaseline? Eh.. Maybe. I'd rather go double duty for a kit such as this and pack extra cotton socks with long tube lengths I can cut off for tinder, fluff up and use with lip balm.

Lip balm is useful for lots of things (blister prevention and care for instance) and extra clean dry socks? Other than your shoes, these are top priority for "getting home".

Shoe? Yep. If I have to wear shoes or boots that are poor for walking distances (which is not often) I take the walking shoes with me. Usually in my vehicle. Or I wear them to my destination and the change into the "bad shoes".

Some folks said gloves, duct tape, trash bags, dust masks, eye protection.. Spot on.

Water water water water water. And then water. Pack some, know where more is, know how to procure it, know how to make some drinkable easily. If you are getting home, then you ought to know the area(s). Where are water sources if you get stranded for a few days? This applies to both urban and wilderness scenarios, but you need to look at your particular one.

So much of this is common sense, but the Internet has made a mess of people's heads with so many things. The truth is that there is no ideal "get home bag" that works even many places for many people.

[dks]

This may be of relevance to this thread:
It has lists for items to have and instructions on how to prepare for any emergencies

http://www.ready.gov/build-a-kit

disaster supplies kit is simply a collection of basic items your household may need in the event of an emergency.
 
Try to assemble your kit well in advance of an emergency. You may have to evacuate at a moment’s notice and take essentials with you. You will probably not have time to search for the supplies you need or shop for them.
 
You may need to survive on your own after an emergency. This means having your own food, water and other supplies in sufficient quantity to last for at least 72 hours. Local officials and relief workers will be on the scene after a disaster but they cannot reach everyone immediately. You could get help in hours or it might take days.
 
Additionally, basic services such as electricity, gas, water, sewage treatment and telephones may be cut off for days or even a week, or longer. Your supplies kit should contain items to help you manage during these outages.


and

[Etherealicer]

This may be of relevance to this thread:
It has lists for items to have and instructions on how to prepare for any emergencies

http://www.ready.gov/build-a-kit

disaster supplies kit is simply a collection of basic items your household may need in the event of an emergency.
 
Try to assemble your kit well in advance of an emergency. You may have to evacuate at a moment’s notice and take essentials with you. You will probably not have time to search for the supplies you need or shop for them.
 
You may need to survive on your own after an emergency. This means having your own food, water and other supplies in sufficient quantity to last for at least 72 hours. Local officials and relief workers will be on the scene after a disaster but they cannot reach everyone immediately. You could get help in hours or it might take days.
 
Additionally, basic services such as electricity, gas, water, sewage treatment and telephones may be cut off for days or even a week, or longer. Your supplies kit should contain items to help you manage during these outages.


and
(Image removed from quote.)

No knife

[Lichtbote]

Ironraven,

it was not meant as an attack, but after a event where no rules are working any longer (no local disaster, but a global or at least a continental) - many will see a guy with so many stuff as an invitation.

Just let´s agree to disagree. Your "concept" looks just to much like these funny TV-shows to me. Whatever makes you happy/feel safe is OK with me.

But i have to admit - according your writing you live in a area where disasters seem to happen on a daily basis.

We seem to have to different views what a get home bag should be - for me it just should get me home after a local disaster (then, even if there is no immediate help there is no present danger, just a nasty situation), if needed by foot when the car can´t be used (for whatever reason). Given the 72 hours timeframe, if you won´t stay let´s say at work until roads are free again, so for not more than a walk of 50-80 miles. In such a situation i want to be fast, not heavy loaded.

Then knocking at a door to ask if they are OK with filling up some water bottles, is no begging for me - just asking for help. Or trading some hours work for a meal, if they could use another pair of hands.

Grabbing a few chocolate bars or a bread from a damaged supermarket/gas-station is no looting in a situation like these - running away with a cart containing Flat-TVs or other stuff is.

And as long as soldiers are still around, there is not need for such - for me the things get bad if they are not there anymore. In fact if soldiers would be there it´s easier to show my ID, ask for their command post. Then request if they have any information what´s on my planned route, and if they can provide me 1-3 EPas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_ration) and some water. I´m pretty sure they would give it to me, at least unofficial as a gift to a comrade. 

Some (most) of the things you seem to be prepared for is on a much different level - for that i wouldn´t use a "get home bag" for a limited timeframe, but a more versatile "survival set". Different things to me.

And as mentioned before, such a general get home bag is good to reach next town or something that way. If someones daily trip to work sends them 100 miles through canadian woods, or 100 miles through a desert, so that you have at worst 50 miles in each direction to get help - then your stuff should contain warm weatherproof clothing or enough water. But thats another situation than just walk 1-2 days between towns in a standard climate.

Many of the helping situations you described (snow, trees on the roads, ...) - be it in my neighbourhood or at my parents/friends (all in this town), as long as i´m able to get there i would just go to my garage and take the needed stuff out to be ready, no need to have all that always in my car.

[Lynn LeFey]

I'm not sure the generalist approach I see this kit going toward makes sense in any one scenario, and it has a lot of fluff for many scenarios.

I am going to have to disagree, to a point.

I've heard this discussed other times, and subscribe to one side of the belief, which is this: If you have it, and don't need it, you can ditch it. If you need it, and don't have it, you're out of luck. So, while the kit might have things you don't need for a specific scenario, you can't know what scenario you're planning for. Therefore, I tend to make plans for a kit based on most generally useful items and mostly likely to be needed in multiple scenarios.

On some specific gear. Fork and spoon (spoon specifically). This goes with the peanut butter, and potentially a can of ravioli. Doesn't need to be cooked, but you DO need a utensil. Fork might be able to be ditched, but it weighs very little, costs very little and may find other functions.

Soap v bodywash. Not really lighter. Also body wash can be shared more sanitarily and is MUCH less messy. However, on a very early build of a emergency kit, I bought a bar of antibacterial soap and cut it into 'mini' bars for multiple kits. So I'm not completely against the idea.

Socks. Not a bad idea, but I couldn't find anything at a very reasonable price.

Lip balm is a possible, and could be combined with (free) dryer lint, and the already-included jute twine.

Duct tape is already included.

ADDING two 50-gallon trash bags. I purchased a box of 32 for $14 some time back. That's about 50 cents each.

So...

Total budget is $33.75

I agree shoes should be added, but not on the $50 budget. If someone has an old pair lying around, that'd be great.

I'm stuck at home doing preparation for moving, so can't make a run for the additional items I think should be included (tarp, bandana, emergency blanket, water purification method, and filter mask).

I'll probably raid my medicine cabinets for add-ons to the first aid kit. OR, I might look for a cheaper first aid kit while I'm out and about later.

[MadPlumbarian]

As for the bar of soap and first aid kit, let alone a few other things, of to a pharmacy or Wally World, and go to the travel section, normally they have mini items! The other thing is a bar of soap can be used as a shampoo also, hey it's not the best but it is usable, it's all I use, grant it the longest my hair gets is 1/4" but it's usable.. While moving if you end up going to a hotel/motel try to stock up on there mini bars! JR

[Lynn LeFey]

I have hair that in places is 20" long. You can't use bar soap on that. You just end up with a tangled rat's nest. In basic training, I used liquid dial soap, my hair was cut that short. Not today, though. For most guys, though, I agree that bar soap would be fine.

[MadPlumbarian]

I didn't say you had to use bar soap as shampoo, I said it could be used as shampoo,, gee,, they do also have mini shampoo bottles too.. JR

[comis]

Interesting topic, the following is my survival rant or theory, may not be totally relevant but my 2 cents on why I generally think we shouldn't put a price tag on anything survival(especially wilderness)--


I respect people whom has taken time and effort to sort out gear list at different price level, and I certainly see a lot of presentation done with the mentality of 'having-something is better than nothing'.  This same logic seems to apply to almost anything survival related, and the line I've seen the most is 'the best knife you have is the knife on you'.  There is nothing really wrong about it, and certainly people are entitled to think what they like.

However, when it comes to my personal survival, I can't say I am totally against it, but I don't fully agree with those ideas.

First, I never think it's good idea to put a price tag on survival items or survival kit.

I am not saying people should break their bank or take a loan to have the best gear, or buying everything flashy or space-aged.  But if people are somewhat serious about surviving in an emergency(or have genuine concern), it should be whatever people could best afford at the time being, and it should constantly be upgraded as the financial situation and survival knowledge improves, until all the best and most suitable gears are acquired.  I am not a survival expert and not asking people to build bulker for zombie fest, but if I can afford to collect good MT or knives, I will be real mad at myself if I don't put in fair amount of time/money/effort to give myself or love ones more chance to survive.

And yes, I genuinely dislike $20 dollars wilderness survival tin, because there exist a company making money, by putting inferior goods in a tin and installing false confidence to those who don't know better. 
Is it better than nothing?  Sure.  But am I willing to pay a lot more to up my(or love ones) chances for survival?  Absolutely.

On that same note, the best field knife is not always the knife I just have on me.  Simply put, I never go out to the unknown unprepared, like a good boy scout.

Again, I am not trying to play Smarty pants by bashing anyone who could afford the $20 kit, but am generally concern about people whom are fooled by the idea of 'better than nothing', or vice versa, the most expensive kit is good.  Buy two, test one, and keep on updating by experience or better financial situation.

Enough rant...

I think everyone has something different in their get home bag, and there must be a zillion different scenario people are preparing for.  For myself whom live in and works in a totally urban area, my most favorite get-home tool on my backpack is a fair amount of stashed away cash(20-50).  No joke, that saved me a few times when I was young, and back then cell phone don't exist, and I was dropped off pretty far from home forgotten about my wallet.

[MadPlumbarian]

I agree with comis, everyone has there own good/bad(cheap) department, me a plumber would spend the extra few $$ on a pipe wrench, but not on a hammer, unlike a carpenter who would do it opposite, knowing he'd pretty much never use a wrench, but good to have "just in case"! If you know it's something you might use, then get it, but nothing special, but on the other hand if you know your going to use it and use it often, then you get the better one.. JR

[sawman]

I have a cool little Maxpedition Micro kit I keep in the car and just last weekend I had to pull an alcohol swap and bandaid out to nurse my sister-in-law's finger cut.

That said, I'm not too concerned with soaps, razors, shampoos, toothbrushes etc. What I really need to be able to grab during an evac. is my medication as I would be absolutely terminal in little time without them. I take medication for my bad heart and 2 different bloodpressure meds. I won't get into all the other stuff I need to take but you get the idea.

[Lynn LeFey]

Comis, I'm right there with you about getting the best gear you can afford.

I have multiple individual pieces of equipment i carry with me every day that cost more than the $50 I set as  budget for this kit. This is just an experiment in starter equipment.

Also, I thought I'd mention this. My husband got his driver's license first in Germany. He was an army brat. In Germany, you are required by law to have certain safety equipment in your car. As far as I have ever been able to find, there are no such laws in the U.S. In Germany, you are REQUIRED to have a first aid kit in your car.

Now, many auto makers do have first aid kits in their vehicles. Our Hyundai Santa Fe came with a first aid kit. But we've had other cars that didn't.

This might color the perceptions of folks in other countries who wonder why I'd bother putting first aid stuff in the kit. Or maybe not, I don't know.

[MadPlumbarian]

I have a cool little Maxpedition Micro kit I keep in the car and just last weekend I had to pull an alcohol swap and bandaid out to nurse my sister-in-law's finger cut.

That said, I'm not too concerned with soaps, razors, shampoos, toothbrushes etc. What I really need to be able to grab during an evac. is my medication as I would be absolutely terminal in little time without them. I take medication for my bad heart and 2 different bloodpressure meds. I won't get into all the other stuff I need to take but you get the idea.

Like I said everyone has there own "must haves" I can agree with sawman I could care less on the toothbrush and razor, but the soap could come in handy, heck your finger was the original toothbrush if you want to push it, I don't need anything for my heart except tums, lol, but I need my own meds for my needs..
 
 I have a unique setup,
1, I never step foot out of my house without my pocket stuff,
2, I have one of those small maxpedition thingys that I have setup with other needs, so if I know I'm going to be gone for a little longer and might need a few things(like my meds, heart burn, headache, first aid, duct tape, and a few other must haves, that goes with me.
3, then I have my backpack, if I know I'm going to be gone all day, with the posable overnight, then that goes, that's where the larger stuff comes into play, the 55gal bags, poncho, tools, food, larger first aid, another thing of my meds, and much more, let's not forget the #2, that has it's own spot in the bag, so the must haves are also on board! Everything breaks down to be organized! Just like on the backpack, on the back I have patches with my name and med condition, let alone a mto patch to give info in case something was to happen, just like on the larger first aid kit that sits on the outside of the bag has a Red Cross to let everyone know it's there "just in case"! JR

[Etherealicer]

@Price Concept: If you leave your kit in your car and it gets stolen (there is a reasonable chance for that) you don't loose your limited edition gold plated Multitool. So its a good exercise to set a limit and see how far you can go on a budget.


HOWEVER, I actually found the perfect "Get home Gear" that is available for 50 US . Emphasis here is on Get home not Bug out.

Goal: Get home AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Not in less than 3 days but really as fast as possible to your family.
Assumption: If you can drive your car home you don't need the kit. Therefore we have to assume the situation is so bad, you can't use the car (traffic breakdown after 9/11).
Where are you: most likely at work, which is for many a single location.

Therefore a reasonable solution is a bicycle. Keep it at your workplace or nearby. If you can't use the car its quite probable you still can use the bike (it can be carried over obstacles) and gets you home much faster than walking.
Of course that solution also faces many problems and is not always applicable (terrain (you can do 30km in the flat on a good road) / distance / If you can't drive your car due to a snowstorm, then you cannot walk nor cycle home)

Just food for thoughts. A quite different approach to the problem. Also it makes it apparent that you should familiarize yourself with whatever gear you have and train with it. Oh and nothing can truly replace physical fitness.

[Lynn LeFey]

I've looked at that approach. The problem is that it assumes knowing where you ARE when something goes down. Because of this, I'd assume that the transportation mode must be carried in the car. I looked at the Citizen Tokyo folding bike. Not a bad option, but more expensive than the $50 budget would allow. Another possible would be if you had room for maybe a BMX bike. Folding pedals and quick release gooseneck could help this along.

The idea of limiting time to get to destination is great, and one I've obviously considered before. Doing it cheap and having it available is problematic, IMO. Although I haven't given up on the idea. A walking speed of 3 miles per hour would be pretty darn good. I can manage twice that on a bike at leisure pace. I can manage 12 miles per hour on flat terrain if the wind isn't too strong, and could keep that up for hours. So, I could probably reasonably walk 24 miles a day. But I could bike twice that in in half the time. Yes. Bikes would be an awesome solution, if you could have one available all the time.

However... they won't help if you get stranded in a blizzard.

[Taxi Dad]

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PETROL-GOPED-SCOOTER-/121380343352?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item1c42d50e38

[Etherealicer]

With my old bike (3 gears from 1971 ) I can maintain a speed of 25km/h (15 mph) for more than an hour in the flat.
Longest I've gone was 47km (relatively flat Olten to Lucerne) it took me about 2.5 hours (but then I wasn't in a hurry). In hurry I probably could do it in under 2h. On foot I would say anything below 8 / 8.5h is ambitious.
As for knowing where you are. Well that is correct but Mon to Fri your probably at home or at work, so that is very limited. Still, if you want to be prepared for everything you might have to prepare more than one strategy (car kit and bicycle at your workplace).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PETROL-GOPED-SCOOTER-/121380343352?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item1c42d50e38

[...]it struggles to propel me up hills or on rough terrain. it does ok on flat Tarmac[...]

[Taxi Dad]

I was just thinking the 'goped' scooter thingy would fit in a car boot (trunk for the Americans) and could scoot around obstacles or traffic.
maybe it could be 'pimped'  so you could get better performance. it wouldn't have to adhere to many 'rules' if it was for emergency use.

[Lynn LeFey]

I think some of the electric scooters i've seen have looked promising. Some have a range of around 25 miles. They'd also be a lot quieter than gas, although refueling the gas one would be easier/faster under normal circumstances.

Good ideas, though.

Maybe even a skateboard would be a good idea (if you're coordinated). Anything to cut the transit time.

But once again... budget of $50 here.

[ironraven]

http://www.ready.gov/build-a-kit

That list always makes me giggle due to the lack of knife. Still, if you can't figure that one out on your own, you wouldn't own multitools.

[glorn]

Looking at the idea of "you can ditch it if you don't need it, but if you don't have it you are screwed".

This applies more than anything to the entire kit. Which means that weight is crucial. If it is too loaded down with "ditchable" items, one is less inclined to lug it around. If you are truly critical of what goes into the kit with that in mind, then each item informs the other.

Example: peanut butter

Sure.. cheap and lots of calories, fat and protein. I get it.

Requires a spoon. Bulky. Messy.

So what could I pack instead that provides the same benefits without the negatives and without that spoon?

How about shelled peanuts? Almonds? Trail mix? Foil packed tuna in oil?

That's all I'm getting at. The first or "obvious" solution is frequently not the best one. Not bad, but possibly not best.  If you can brainstorm a little bit beyond that instinctual first idea to see if it can be done better, lighter, and with less superfluous gear, then you begin to see the kit as an interdependent system, and not as a collection of bits and bobs.

[bmot]

http://www.ready.gov/build-a-kit

That list always makes me giggle due to the lack of knife. Still, if you can't figure that one out on your own, you wouldn't own multitools.

Well, it is a kit for people to keep at home, I'm quite sure every single house has at least some knives...

[Lynn LeFey]

How about shelled peanuts? Almonds? Trail mix? Foil packed tuna in oil?

Every one of those options is considerably more expensive than peanut butter, and none are more calorically dense by equal weight. Also, nuts in their raw state both take up more space and go rancid fairly quick (compared to peanut butter).

I happen to buy roasted almonds at the same place I got the other food with great frequency. Hubby uses it to balance his protein intake. They're a greta choice, but not the best choice on a budget.

If the spoon is an actual issue, it weighs a good deal under an ounce and cost me 25 cents. However, it COULD be replaced by a plastic spoon I got from Wendy's for free. I'm not normally a fan of plasticware, but the spoons from Wendy's a pretty solid, and i'd trust it for a 3-day trip.

[Taxi Dad]

have we said ''loo roll'' (tp) yet ?