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Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife

00 Offline kwakster

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Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
on: August 02, 2014, 05:23:58 PM
Some time ago while surfing the net i found a website with Catra test results for 3 different ceramic knives: two by the well known Japanese Kyocera brand, and one from another (and unfamiliar to me) Japanese brand with the name Forever Company.
Next to various types of ceramic knives the company also seems to make a host of other specialty kitchen knives from various space-age materials: http://forever-k.com/en/ceramic/
Anyway, the 3 ceramic knives were tested on wear resistance, and the (much) cheaper Forever knife seemingly won by quite a margin regarding that aspect:

http://socialcompare.com/en/comparison/couteaux-en-ceramique-mpo3v9w

Now i know that wear resistance does not equal edge holding (especially with ceramic knives), but who knows ?
Maybe they're on to something.
Since i sharpen ceramic knives for others from time to time (and the two tested Kyocera models have always ranked the highest for me in the edge holding department so far), i became a bit curious about the Forever knife.
So i ordered the exact SC-16WB model that was tested from a Japanese based E-Bay dealer for 45 US dollars including shipping to the Netherlands, and yesterday it arrived:











Specs:

Ceramic knife for right handed use (non-logo side is flat, while the logo side has a wide saber grind and a 70/30 edge
Overall length: 10.9 inch (27,6 cm)
Blade length: 6.3 inch (16,0 cm)
Blade material: High Density Zirconia
Blade thickness: 1,43 mm
Thickness behind the edge: 0,61 mm
Factory edge angle: 26/27 degrees inclusive
Edge finish: rather coarse with lots of bite (my estimate: somewhere around a 1000 grit)
Sharpness: Can shave my arm- and leg hair with the growth, not against it.
Not a single microchip can be felt using my nail, or seen through my Victorinox magnifying glass
Handle material: black plastic
Weight: 83 grams

I'm going to use the knife the coming months for standard kitchen duty, mostly to see how that rather coarse factory edge will hold up.
When the time comes i will experiment a bit with resharpening and write about my findings in this thread.


fi Offline Crow

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
I would love to see how this goes. Will you be testing this with different materials aswell?


ca Offline Syph007

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 05:49:49 PM
Ya Ive been curious about those too.  Do they also make them in paring knife size, thats the size I seem to use most often for food prep.
PM me or email sakmodder [at] gmail . com if you are looking for custom SAK work.

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00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
Cutting a large Ciabatta bread with a semi-hard crust into 4 sections on a good wooden cutting board provided the edge with 1 tiny microchip just in front of the heel.
That chip is only visible through my Victorinox magnifying glass (not with my naked eye), and the rest of the edge still looks and feels unharmed in any way.
I've already made a few cheap ceramic knives lose their entire sharp edge by doing this test, and i wanted to see how this rather coarse edge would do right from the start.

After this i proceeded with cutting a whole box of cherry tomatoes.
Even with it's light weight of only 83 grams i could pinch the end of the handle between thumb and forefinger, put the tip of the knife on the cherry tomato, and slice it completely through on the wooden cutting board just before i ran out of edge length.
The last tomato was cut as easily as the first.


gb Offline Cupboard

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 07:23:05 PM
two by the well known Japanese Kyocera brand

They of the printers?


ca Offline jekostas

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 03:46:56 AM
two by the well known Japanese Kyocera brand

They of the printers?

Same company.  They make a lot of high-tech ceramics as well.


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 09:11:54 AM
On another forum i got this question:

"Looks like a nice knife. But would you expect the knife to become dull after cutting up a ciabatta and a box of cherry tomatoes?
I have no experience with ceramic knives, so I am sorry if this sounds ignorant, but it would seem most or all kitchen knives with a decent edge would survive the ordeal?"

This was my answer:

"Crusted bread is known to be able to chip hard & thin knife edges made from quality knife steels quite easily, and for much harder but toughness lacking thin ceramic knife edges it is even more difficult.
The fact that this Forever ceramic knife suffered just one extremely minor chip and was able to slice those cherry tomatoes the way it did tells me quite a lot already."


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 05:53:17 PM
For people who like to read more about ceramic knives: http://www.myceramicknives.com/
(imo there are bits & pieces of info not entirely correct, but overall the site makes nice reading material about the subject)

On that same site there are also tests on cutting various foods and how it affects them: http://www.myceramicknives.com/my-30-day-test


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 08:57:11 AM
The last few days i used the ceramic knife in our kitchen for cutting various types of food: a lot of onions, tomatoes, smoked ham, Dutch cheese, mozarella cheese, mushrooms, paprika's, all for use in pasta salads which we eat a lot during summer.

I noticed a few things:

- Cutting up 5 to 6 large onions with the ceramic knife didn't induce teary eyes like it would have done had i used a steel knife.
Instead i could only feel a very slight stinginess.
- Slices of mozarella cheese stick noticeably less to the ceramic knife than they do to a steel knife, and also leave much less cheese residue there.

Both with the naked eye and using my Victorinox magnifying glass i could not see any change to the factory edge afterwards, and the knife can still shave the hair from my calf.


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 02:41:02 PM
Sounds like it is a good knife. A keeper for sure.

That's us mobile.

Nate

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00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #10 on: September 14, 2014, 11:42:58 AM
The knife has been used the last couple of weeks for cutting all kinds of food, and was checked each time afterwards for edge damage as well as the ability to shave some hair from my leg.
Last night with my Victorinox magnifying glass i saw for the first time multiple microchips in the edge, and it's hairshaving ability had also noticeably decreased.
These microchips aren't visible with the naked eye, and the knife still cuts vegetables, fruit, and various meats just fine.
However, since i don't like to continue working with a ceramic knife with a microchipped edge i will give it a new & somewhat finer polished edge in the coming week to see how that will hold up.
While microchips also act a bit like microserrations improving slicing ability, they are also stressrisers in a material that can't handle that aspect too well.


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #11 on: September 14, 2014, 06:04:07 PM
Can't seem to add pics to my older posts so i place them here.
Both are taken through my Victorinox magnifying glass.

The one chip just before the heel from cutting the ciabatta:


A few more chips i discovered yesterday evening:


spam Offline comis

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #12 on: September 14, 2014, 06:35:47 PM
kwakster, won't you be a little worry if you ingest those chips?  I would much rather my kitchen knife roll than chip...on that note, I gonna go and check on my non-ceremic kitchen knife too.  :think:


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #13 on: September 15, 2014, 04:47:51 PM
Indeed a very good question, and one of my own concerns when using & sharpening ceramic knives, since chipping is basically the only option for them to go blunt.
Ceramic edges simply don't do plastic deformation, and that's why in general i don't like the combination of an ultra hard & thin edge with a rather coarse edge finish on them.
Imo ceramic knives do better with a more refined edge finish: they will chip much less so they tend to stay sharp longer, which of course gives the user the added benefit of getting to swallow much less of these ceramic chips.
Now these chips are so minute and also chemically inert that at this point in time i don't think they will do any bodily harm, but people used to think the same about asbestos in earlier days, so i think it would be wise for everyone to keep using their own judgement.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #14 on: September 15, 2014, 06:50:55 PM
Good point Comis and follow up Kwakster.  Having worked as a chef and admittedly abusing my knives I will stick to high carbon steel blades for my kitchen use.  I like ceramic as a neat medium for a knife in idea only and this thread is very interesting but I'll stick to a knife I dont have to "baby".   
Esse Quam Videri


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #15 on: October 02, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
Reprofiling the edge on the Tormek silicon carbide stone turned out to be rather easy, as the ceramic material in this knife has good grindability.
I thinned the edge just a hair to an almost exact 25 degrees inclusive, en the time needed to remove the miniscule chips was about 10-15 minutes.
Afterwards i did a first refining step with 15 micron diamond compound on a Paper Wheel, and now the edge looks like this.
I took the pic using a bit of floodlight to showcase the scratch pattern a little better (if you click 2 x):



The now ever so slight convex edge can currently shave armhair in 2 directions.
Next step will be refining it further with another Paper Wheel with 6 micron diamond compound.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #16 on: October 03, 2014, 06:53:47 AM
Ok I may have to retract what I originally posted.  WOW thats some great work on the blade.  This thread it getting more and more interesting.  Thanks for the update.
Esse Quam Videri


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #17 on: October 07, 2014, 05:56:15 PM
The edge has now been refined with 6 micron diamond compound on a Paper Wheel and is starting to resemble milk glass.
Although the scratch pattern can still be seen with my Victorinox loupe, it's getting difficult for my cheap camera to do the same.
Pictures were taken on the exact same spot with the same floodlight, and you can click them 2 x.



The edge can now slice single layer toilet paper cleanly, treetop the hair on the back of my hand, and whittle a chest hair towards the root.


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #18 on: October 07, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
Like those pics.  :tu:


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #19 on: October 07, 2014, 11:29:47 PM
Wow! That looks sharp. And sharp.


Nate

Nate

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00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 05:04:01 PM
After a nice long vacation & a subsequent nasty flu it was time to go back to work, so i just finished refining the edge of this ceramic knife a bit further with 3 micron diamond compound on a Paper Wheel.

With my Victorinox loupe & strong floodlight the scratch pattern in the bevels is now very difficult to see, and the keenness of the edge has progressed just a little bit more.
For testing i sacrificed a few more chest hairs, and the edge is now able to whittle some of them in the direction of the hairpoint, while others are just cut completely through while the cut end jumps away.

One of the coming days i'm going to find out if a Paper Wheel with 1 micron diamond compound can improve the edge further.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 07:23:36 PM
From 3 to 1 microns you may be just be "splitting hairs"   :rofl:

I enjoy the updates to this thread a lot thanks for posting. 
Esse Quam Videri


wales Offline magentus

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 02:30:42 PM
I feel sorry for the poor calf you keep shaving........
'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf


au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
wow, I've seen some of your sharpening threads before kwakster, but you seriously are the Yoda of sharpening.



00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #24 on: July 29, 2015, 02:45:30 PM
Finally found the time to finish the edge with 1 micron diamond compound, and the edge can now whittle chest hairs towards the point along the entire edge and also slice a tomato quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4YGGHltloU

Time to find out if and how this edge will hold up in our kitchen use,
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 02:56:43 PM by kwakster »


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #25 on: September 28, 2015, 05:04:28 PM
Since my last post i've been using the knife in our kitchen several times a week, together with with a reground Spyderco pairing knife for detail work.
Mostly cutting up onions, paprika's, mushrooms, various meats & cheeses and an assortment of other vegetables.
All cutting was and is done on an end grain beechwood cutting board that i oiled several times before i started using it a couple of years ago.

The sharpness has degraded from whittling chest hairs towards the point to whittling the same chest hairs towards the root, and through my Victorinox loupe i can see just one extremely tiny microchip (below the letter Y in the word "density" on the blade)
The chip is not visible with my naked eyes, but i can just feel it on my nail.

Will continue to keep using the knife.


spam Offline comis

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #26 on: September 28, 2015, 06:49:40 PM
Thanks for the long term update, really like how well you have sharpen in the video, and that's one knife you don't have to worry about patina or rusting after all the fruit or veggie cuts.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #27 on: September 28, 2015, 09:17:14 PM
Thanks for the long term update, really like how well you have sharpen in the video, and that's one knife you don't have to worry about patina or rusting after all the fruit or veggie cuts.
^^^ this. I wonder how much the micro chipping is from the board or if it's all a result of cutting on the board?   
Esse Quam Videri


00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 09:48:47 PM
From what i've seen so far microchipping in ceramic edges mostly comes from impacting the board too hard (think cutting food types that suddenly give way), embedded earth particles in vegetables, and of course rough use in general.

Imo well oiled end grain beechwood cutting boards themselves are still the best choice for quality kitchen knives, as not only are they much more gentle on your thin & sharp knife edges compared to modern plastic cutting boards, the wood also has natural anti-bacterial properties.



00 Offline kwakster

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Re: Forever SC-16WB ceramic knife
Reply #29 on: November 03, 2015, 10:24:47 AM
The knife is still being used in our kitchen in exactly the same way as described in my previous post, and the edge is still able to whittle little curls from one of my chest hairs towards the hair root.
(click 2 x for more detail)



Through my Victorinox loupe i can now spot 3 micro-chips, which can be felt on my nail as well.
However these are not visible with my naked eyes.


 

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