EBay - can they legally discriminate??

[tosh]

This has been gnawing away with me for quite some time.
Unless you live in the UK, you won't believe just how hard it is to track down retired/rare/vintage  multitools.
Amazon UK rarely have them, that  basically leaves only eBay.
Yet for some reason eBay.co.UK has decided to take the moral high ground and block the selling of what it deems as weapons. Yet you can buy an axe, a catapult, kitchen knives and cleavers and god knows what else.
And, let us not forget all the dodgy knocked off gear - most of which I'm guessing wasn't acquired with the owners consent 

Yet, eBay.co.uk turns a blind eye to these acts. Multitools are NOT banned here in the UK. So what legal right does eBay have to block UK eBay users from buying  off eBay sites in other countries - if the seller is prepared to ship how can eBay block that transaction.
No matter how I look at this, its basically discrimination. The UK is part of the EU. I really don't see how eBay can legally write their own rule book.

Would anyone like to comment??

[Essexman]

Some years ago BBC watchdog show made a point of buying knives via ebay.co,uk. from around the world. Some of the knives they purchased were not allowed in the UK. ebay knee jerk reaction was total ban on anything knife for .co.uk.

It's their website, they can do that kinda thing.

[sawman]

I don't really care if it's 'their website'. I don't think they should be allowed to discriminate like they do.

[tosh]

Some years ago BBC watchdog show made a point of buying knives via ebay.co,uk. from around the world. Some of the knives they purchased were not allowed in the UK. ebay knee jerk reaction was total ban on anything knife for .co.uk.

It's their website, they can do that kinda thing.

Can they??
If its a global blanket ban then fair do's - but to impose it in just one country??....surely that's discriminatory.

[Syph007]

They sure do have a monopoly on the online selling of items.  Its for sure not fair, but legally I dont know if they can discriminate by country.  Feels wrong though for sure.

[Lynn LeFey]

Yeah. See, that's the thing. Freedoms don't necessarily extend to private companies and corporations.

I hear this most often when someone says something stupid somewhere online, gets banned, then cries 'First Amendment' in the U.S.

The problem is... you have the right to say most anything in the U.S., and a company has the right to ban you for it. Same with companies selling stuff.

There was a big change in selling in the U.S. for firearms and ammo during the big push for weapons restrictions recently, and a lot of companies, probably just not wanting to deal with the headache, stopped offering firearms and ammo. Still perfectly legal things to sell. But if a company feels that it cuts into their profits via bad press or whatever, it's their right to stop offering a product.

On the GOOD side...

There's MTO. It might not be the fastest way to get stuff, but it's pretty darn reliable, and the deals can be phenomenal.

[bmot]

Legally, I have no idea about this, but I assume EBay UK is a separate entity from the other EBay sites, and are completely free to what they deem okay to be sold over their website. If Grant decided he didn't want twinkies sold through EDCSource, he'd have all the right to ban them.

I think because of that, it can't be seen as preventing something to be sold to certain people, but as preventing something to be sold at all.

Personally, I wouldn't call it discrimination as well... Not that I support their decision, though. I do think people should be able to be free to have the freedom to make their own rules on their websites, within lawful rules of course.

[tosh]

Okay, I'll go at this from a different angle.
The UK housing market is so unattainable to most  that most are now forced to rent rather than buy.
Most landlords are law abiding but there is a staggering proportion of landlords who show nothing but contempt by fitting used boilers often sourced off ebay, never checked or serviced - I know this from talking to a pal of mine who has witnessed this first hand after being offered cash to just "fit it".
As he says most of these are incredibly dangerous  and would pose a real and mortal threat to the tenants. So does eBay block the sale of used gas boilers - no of course they don't.

So in effect banning the sale of something that is perfectly legal then turning a blind eye to something  that is potentially fatal is surely wrong!!

Or have I got my wire crossed again??

[sawman]

Okay, I'll go at this from a different angle.
The UK housing market is so unattainable to most  that most are now forced to rent rather than buy.
Most landlords are law abiding but there is a staggering proportion of landlords who show nothing but contempt by fitting used boilers often sourced off ebay, never checked or serviced - I know this from talking to a pal of mine who has witnessed this first hand after being offered cash to just "fit it".
As he says most of these are incredibly dangerous  and would pose a real and mortal threat to the tenants. So does eBay block the sale of used gas boilers - no of course they don't.

So in effect banning the sale of something that is perfectly legal then turning a blind eye to something  that is potentially fatal is surely discrimination.

Or have I got my wire crossed again??

I agree. But who has the authority to straighten them out 

[tosh]

The Law

Or is eBay above that.
Seriously, the amount of stolen goods that must be being shifted through eBay is staggering I bet. It could be argued that eBay is actually increasing the crime rate as its allowing a platform for thieves to sell stolen goods, it would be a very naive person who argued that.

Personally I think eBay needs to be reigned in and be reminded that even THEY are not above the law.

[sawman]

The Law

Or is eBay above that.
Seriously, the amount of stolen goods that must be being shifted through eBay is staggering I bet. It could be argued that eBay is actually increasing the crime rate as its allowing a platform for thieves to sell stolen goods, it would be a very naive person who argued that.

Personally I think eBay needs to be reigned in and be reminded that even THEY are not above the law.

+1 Cheers buddy

I couldn't agree more. It doesn't take a genius to establish given some of the blowout prices on there how many items fell off a truck 

[tosh]

You make bad arguments.

ebay discriminates against us because we can't buy what I want, and here's a bunch of other (absolutely irrelevant) things they may be doing!

Yes. ebay is evil. They're a corporation. Of COURSE they're evil. So... DON'T USE THEM if you don't like their practices. But don't sidestep the original argument of not getting what you want by showing how other items they sell could be potentially dangerous, or stolen.

From the original post, you'd have been happy to buy your cheap MTs on the site, and TOTALLY overlook the fact that they sell stuff that might kill people or be fenced stolen merchandise... which might INCLUDE those sweet MT deals you're getting. You have no moral high ground here.

I can't help but feel this is a bunch of sour grapes.

We'll that is exactly what it is Lynn... Sour Grapes.
I have very high morals - so high in fact that I've disowned most of my own family (parents brothers/sisters)
I think if we are without morals and principles then we are no better than scum!! I'll say it in black and white because that's how I am.

Yes Ebay takes the moral high ground on its view of what it deems as weapons or dangerous regardless of what the law states!! - but then turns a blind eye to all manor of shocking illegal activities, many of which are highly illegal under UK law!!

In my book that is clearly wrong on EVERY level.

[Lynn LeFey]

Sure, but what you're complaining about is that YOU can't get cheap MTs. That IS what this post was about. Right?

So... again. No moral high ground. Stop pretending you DO have it. OR STFU about ebay. You KNOW what it is. JUST DON'T USE IT!!

 

[tosh]

Sure, but what you're complaining about is that YOU can't get cheap MTs. That IS what this post was about. Right?

So... again. No moral high ground. Stop pretending you DO have it. OR STFU about ebay. You KNOW what it is. JUST DON'T USE IT!!

 

Lynn STOP!! Just where have I mentioned getting cheap MT's?? Where?? Hmm??
Exactly !!

All I've asked is that I want the same rights as every other ebay member!!
Maybe you should go back and re-read my original post!!

Have a great weekend.

[captain spaulding]

Play nice you two.   


Yes I deputized myself. 

[Lynn LeFey]

'Fraid I can't. I'll just have to stay out of this thread.

And I will.

[captain spaulding]

'Fraid I can't. I'll just have to stay out of this thread.

And I will.

Sometimes it's for the better. I'm not saying just you, but in general. I know I personally have had to stop posting in a thread recently.

[PTRSAK]

 

I'm sure that buried deep in the pages of terms and conditions that wee all blindly clicked [ I AGREE ] to there is a clause that basically says "It's our bat and ball and if you don't like our rules, don't play."

[tattoosteve99]

And this is why you have friends like me just saying

[captain spaulding]

And this is why you have friends like me just saying

Your the man Steve. 

[Yalius]

Simple reason-- economics.

The liability of eBay should the UK choose to enforce fines for selling prohibited items vastly exceeds the profit gained from allowing those items to be sold. The UK (and I admit, this is second-hand knowledge gained from discussions both here and in other forums) is pretty strict in seller liability for prohibited items. The other option, to have employees manually vet each item is also economically prohibitive. Easier to just blanket-ban the entire class.

Another option-- have you considered lobbying your Parliament to ease restrictions on hand tools and knives?

[Lichtbote]

It´s no discrimination, it´s just simplifying the controls - easier to disable the purchase on a group/region than controlling each item.

We have something that direction with ebay here in Germany, too. As some may know our government is paniced as soon as some Nazi-element might be used, so each in that direction is more or less forbidden. This even effects militaria collections in some ways. And not only the nazi-related militaria.

As example - some stuff is offered on Ebay USA/UK, my search finds it and when i click on the item comes a notice " This item may be prohibited in your country .... blablabla", just by the way it was listed in a certain category in your countries ebay (i think it´s militaria ww2) that we don´t have in germany exact the same. Strange thing is - i was able to buy some of them on Ebay Germany, here it was listed in "antiques" or something that way, not in "militaria WW2".

Funnily the hassle is not even needed, as none of the items is nazi related - one is a german WW I sniper scope, and the others are british or US items, which are not prohibited here. They just disabled buying from whole categories - that shows clearly it´s a thing of simplificating their work process, not any real discrimination.

[Chako]

I hear you. I can't buy Leathermans from eBay if the seller is using that International Shipping Program. For some unknown reason, that eBay program figures that Leathermans cannot be sold to Canada from the US...even though there are no restrictions. I can buy Leathermans off of eBay so long as the seller doesn't belong to that god awful rip-off program. Is that discrimination...no. It is written in their policy that they can add or remove items at their will to be sold for specific regions. Does it suck...yes. It took me a while to figure out what was happening. Now that I know, it is easy to circumvent..and I feel sorry for the sellers who don't know what they can't sell to whom...as quite often, they advertise that they can sell to you..but can't due to that program. I think it hurts them more than me...no matter how inconvenient it is.

[ColoSwiss]

It's not just ebay, and it's not just the UK. Japanese knife dealers won't ship to the US. Neither will dealers in Argentina or Brazil. Some of it has to do with postal regulations or monetary regulations. Some dealers claim its because of US regulations or Victorinox restrictions. Since I've bought stuff from around a dozen countries it obviously isn't either of those. Some just don't want to deal with the additional hassle.  In any event the world-wide market place is more a fantasy than a reality.

[ironraven]

So, Ebay UK chooses to be a bunch of paranoid, whiney, nanny-state commie smurfs and not allow you to use the word "knife". But they will let rip offs be sold?

That's simple. They've followed the advice of their lawyers, and I'm sure buried somewheres in the terms of service, you can't sell knives. Anyone breaking that rule is banned for violating the TOS. Bad user, bad, bad user! That means creating a new account with new email and bank account.  Oh, so hard. But it insulates them for any possibly liability. It's lazy, stupid and most importantly, cheap.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the clown (no offence Cap) who thought it up hung from his ankles for a while. If I open up a facility to a flea market, I might not be responsible for the acts of the vendors per say, but it is on my honor to keep an eye out for anyone breaking my rules, and if someone is, to grab the boys and help this silly person pack up and leave before anything too bad happens. But honor is too expensive.

[Etherealicer]

Well actually a quick Internet search revealed that behind the ban of knifes on ebay UK is BBC. Apparently they got lots of critique after some BBC Watchdog Researcher were able to buy illegal knifes of ebay UK.
According to ebay, UK knife laws are too complex and the easiest thing was to simply ban all trade in them.

Liability
As far as I know, ebay is not liable for the products sold on its site in the USA. In Europe this is quite different, please read L'Oreal vs. ebay.

The ECJ also considered Article 14 of the E-commerce Directive, which says a website such as eBay, which hosts offers, would not be liable for the information stored by users if it does not have actual knowledge of illegal activity or information, and it is not aware of facts or circumstances from which the illegal activity is apparent, or if it acts expeditiously to remove or disable access to the information, once it becomes aware it is illegal. However, the ECJ decided that a hosting website cannot use this defence if it, as a diligent economic operator, should have identified the unlawful activity, and removed the information. This part of the ruling demonstrates the high threshold such websites must reach if they are not to fall foul of this area of European law.

Interestingly, ebay UK banned knife trade in '09 while L'Oreal vs. ebay was '11/'12. Not knowing the circumstances I can only speculate that ebay banned knife trade before a crime is committed by an illegal knife purchased over ebay resulting in more restriction / responsibility for ebay. After all, the knife trade is probably only a tiny part for ebay and it already had several lawsuits about liability (All/ most of them though on the basis of trademark infringement). Considering that up to 1000 people fall victim to a knife related crime every month, in London alone, this seems prudent (source)*.

*"Funny" enough the article also cites a case where the attack happened with kitchen knifes, which are still legal to trade over ebay and suffer from no restriction, shows that knife laws are kinda useless.

[Mercury]

I dont see how a company is doing anything wrong my refusing to sell certain items, whatever the reason.  Calling it discrimination is a completely emotional response based on the fact that you want something and they dont allow it on THEIR site.  If the UK had less stringent knife laws im sure ebay would respond in kind, but thats not the case.  It sounds to me like they just dont want the headace and who can blame them?  Seriously, when you can get in trouble in a country for carrying a leatherman wave(depending on the cops mood, aint that reassuring)would you want to be out there as a "provider"?

I would use edcsource or an online retailer that sells vintage tools.  I have a feeling that there might be one opening its doors soon...

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