Radical Victorinox Models

[tosh]

A few recent posts here on MT'o got me thinking about just how radical Victorinox once was.
Infact, it sent me scurrying off to find them out and photograph them.

Do you remember these.....

Autotool
Sports Ratchet
Swissbit mp3
Workchamp XL
And not forgetting the 3 legendary butane lighters.

Can anyone think of any others?

[coSAK]

AutoTool was new to me. Amazing thickness.
Thanks for sharing. 

[enki_ck]

Don't forget "The practical Tool-Set".

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,32382.msg545106.html#msg545106


There have been a few but most of those radical designs of theirs were a big flop once they hit the market too, so that's probably a big reason why they don't feel comfortable coming out with designs like that.

[GigaHz]

The "Rat" knife.

[enki_ck]

The "Rat" knife.

Yeah, those too.



For those not familiar with it... Urban Chameleon series, The Rat.



http://www.swissarmyknights.com/articles/2008/77-february-2008/403-collection-highlight-february-08

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Victorinox+Urban+Chameleon+Series

[AimlessWanderer]

The "Rat" knife.

They were aftermarket mods weren't they ...?

I thought the set with dedicated pliers was quite clever, but never seen one in the flesh, so don't know how ergonomic the pliers were  It was seeing that set that actually ot me to buy a set of 4LN Vise Grips for occasional carry with a SAK 

[Chako]

Ah those pieces of unobtainium. Still haven't been able to locate any of that series...I have long given up. 

[enki_ck]

Ah those pieces of unobtainium. Still haven't been able to locate any of that series...I have long given up. 

As far as I know 2 MTO members together hold the complete set. Karl has one half and Def the other. Very highly doubt any of those two would part with them.

[Chako]

Which is why I have given up. 

[ColoSwiss]

I have six of the Urban Chameleons. Think Def has most  (but not all) of the rest.

[ColoSwiss]

A couple of other interesting after-market series are the Coachs and Michel Jordis.

Been trying to think of other odd-ball items made by Victorinox and the only thing that comes to mind are the bi-colored alox models. Now if it was Wenger…


 

[ColoSwiss]

There a couple of the Urban Chameleons on ebay now. Pricey however.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ultra-Rare-Victorinox-Urban-Chameleon-Cord-Jester-GMBH-Designer-Knife-SALE-/321505236156?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item4adb3494bc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ultra-Rare-Victorinox-Urban-Chameleon-Ground-Hog-GMBH-Designer-Knife-SALE-/321505236159?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item4adb3494bf

[marduk]

Ah those pieces of unobtainium. Still haven't been able to locate any of that series...I have long given up. 

As far as I know 2 MTO members together hold the complete set. Karl has one half and Def the other. Very highly doubt any of those two would part with them.

There is a 3d member who has half the set.

[enki_ck]

Ah those pieces of unobtainium. Still haven't been able to locate any of that series...I have long given up. 

As far as I know 2 MTO members together hold the complete set. Karl has one half and Def the other. Very highly doubt any of those two would part with them.

There is a 3d member who has half the set.

Would that be you?

I have six of the Urban Chameleons. Think Def has most  (but not all) of the rest.

I remembered that Def once said that he and vaswiss had the complete collection.

[marduk]

If I remember correctly, there is a minichamp that has more tools than the currect model. It was posted here several years ago. It's really rare since I believed it was marketed only in Germany and produced for only a year or so.

[GigaHz]

A Minichamp XL.

[enki_ck]

Yes. A rare one indeed.

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,21410.msg398227.html#msg398227

[Reinier]

Don't forget the fragrance dispensers

[lowtech]

Wouldn´t the Golf tool be a radical tool too? and maybe even the Swisspen.

[Etherealicer]

And don't forget the VICTORINOX POTATOE PEELER!!!

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,49695.msg837431.html#msg837431

[Reinier]

I remember a pencil sharpener as wel.

[marduk]

If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.
Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.

[Nhoj]

With the risk of Chinese competition and less carrying of knives in general it makes sense that Victorinox has gotten more conservative recently. I think the biggest thing they've probably done lately is their new hunter pro as it's an entirely new size of knife for them. Something I think that was radical but is overlooked is the 111mm series. They replaced the soldier they had been making for almost 50 years and created a large range of knives and tools for the 111mm line.

[Beery]

If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.
Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.

Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.

Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.

In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.

[Etherealicer]

If you're looking for really radical SAK knives just look at some of what Wenger turned out: Minathor, Bernina, Giant, Reed Knife, and what is probably their biggest fiasco: Business Tool. One model wasn't enough, they made 4 models of this tool. Think of the cost that went into designing and producing these models. I don't doubt that this contributed to Wenger going belly up.
Victorinox, on the other hand, has been relatively conservative in introducing new models, and many of their new ones are but minor modifications of earlier ones, thus reducing costs considerably.

Yeah, but all of that contributed to the fact that Victorinox never fully dealt with their flaws: after 100 years their scissors are still half-baked; they still haven't found a can opener design that works really well in 50 years; they keep including a small knife blade when they could use that slot for a nail file (as Wenger has been doing for years); their wire stripper has never worked; they are only now starting to adapt to the fact that people no longer need a parcel hook, decades after the post office stopped allowing parcels to be wrapped with string; and their pliers have been second rate ever since they made their debut nearly 30 years ago.

Meanwhile, Wenger at least tried to innovate: their scissors are better than the competition - the spring never breaks, never needs replacing; the can opener, while less intuitive, opens cans faster; they ditched the small knife and replaced it with a nail file and nail cleaner that could also be used as a Phillips head screwdriver (admittedly only if you grind the tip off a bit); and their pliers work well and are adjustable.

In my view, as is so often the case in the business world, the company with the better product lost out to the company with the better P.R., logo and business model.

First, Wenger had some great designs and innovation but the went bankrupt, so they are no example for how to do it.

I love the parcel hook, it still has lots of applications. At least the 58mm scissors are excellent (not so familiar with the larger ones, but they are pretty popular around here). In public places it's sometimes good to have a smaller, less scary blade, besides having a second blade is never wrong. So you see, many of your points are personal. I'm sometimes also puzzled by their tool combination (my favorite is the CyberTool with a wood saw???), but everybody seems to have different needs.


If I had any say, I would stamp in any size other than 58 / 91 / 111mm, but make both 91 and 111mm also with alox scales. Once you have reduced the tool lines, you have room for new tools.

[Beery]

First, Wenger had some great designs and innovation but the went bankrupt, so they are no example for how to do it.

Sure, if being the last surviving company is the criterion for success. I tend to see it differently - the mark of success in my book is that you make the best stuff. I'm finally beginning to see that Wenger succeeded where Victorinox has still failed to succeed. After all, if Victorinox make the best SAKs, why have they been so quick to rebrand the Wenger EVO and EVO S series with the Victorinox name? If Wenger's products were worse, Victorinox should have dumped them. Instead, the new Vic Evolutions all seem to have Wenger pattern pliers, Wenger scissors and even (as far as I can tell) the Wenger bottle top lifter.

And the thing that bothers me most about it is that I was taken in by the hype too - I still own far more Victorinox knives (I own 8 ) than Wengers (I own 2). It's only really since Wenger got swallowed up that I really gave their products a chance, and now I'm finding that I backed the wrong team for something like 30 years. I disagree that a lot of my points are personal preference. I mean, surely adjustable pliers are objectively better than non-adjustable; surely scissors whose spring doesn't break are objectively better than scissors whose springs routinely bend and break and need replacing; surely a can opener that works faster is objectively better than one that does it slower.

...many of your points are personal.

Yes, subjectivity is indeed the whole issue with Vic vs. Wenger - people tend not to look at this stuff objectively. But that's MY point.

I'm just getting the feeling that Victorinox is Microsoft to Wenger's Apple. Only Wenger isn't going to get a second chance and invent the SAK version of the iPhone. We're stuck with what "Microsoft" is willing to give us, and "Microsoft's" history shows they aren't innovators.

[Etherealicer]

First, Wenger had some great designs and innovation but the went bankrupt, so they are no example for how to do it.

Sure, if being the last surviving company is the criterion for success. I tend to see it differently - the mark of success in my book is that you make the best stuff. I'm finally beginning to see that Wenger succeeded where Victorinox has still failed to succeed. After all, if Victorinox make the best SAKs, why have they been so quick to rebrand the Wenger EVO and EVO S series with the Victorinox name? If Wenger's products were worse, Victorinox should have dumped them. Instead, the new Vic Evolutions all seem to have Wenger pattern pliers, Wenger scissors and even (as far as I can tell) the Wenger bottle top lifter.

The Delemont Collection is a commitment of Victorinox to keep the Wenger lines alive. No-one actually said that Wenger are worse than Victorinox, they are not. Like many other features the evo scales are not for everybody, some like them, some don't. But Wenger serves as example that innovation is not always good. Giant, Minathor, Business Tool and Reed Knife are nice, but they are "only" collectors knifes and therefore not profitable. Possibly the greatest innovation of Victorinox is the CyberTool bit holder, it simply is awesome and has a wide use and is very popular.
As for the "quick" part. Victorinox bought Wenger in 2005, only now in 2014 they consolidated the two brands (and only the pocket knifes. Watches, bags, kitchen knives etc. are still produced under the Wenger Brand).

[Etherealicer]

Writing my last post made me think:

One of the most radical / innovative tools Victorinox ever did and does is the CyberTool bit holder. It has a very wide range of use, and while not as sturdy as a 1/4" socket its not as specialized as other "radical" tools.

[coSAK]

Sure, if being the last surviving company is the criterion for success. I tend to see it differently - the mark of success in my book is that you make the best stuff.

To die in beauty maybe nice. But in the end you're dead. 

After all, if Victorinox make the best SAKs, why have they been so quick to rebrand the Wenger EVO and EVO S series with the Victorinox name?

It took 9 years. Is this really quick?

If Wenger's products were worse, Victorinox should have dumped them. Instead, the new Vic Evolutions all seem to have Wenger pattern pliers, Wenger scissors and even (as far as I can tell) the Wenger bottle top lifter.

Some call it best of both worlds.

surely scissors whose spring doesn't break are objectively better than scissors whose springs routinely bend and break and need replacing

Objectively yes. And no if you add, that micro-teeth scissors aren't the best for nail care.

surely a can opener that works faster is objectively better than one that does it slower.

Objectively yes. And no if you add, that the other one is actually a combo tool and has a flat+phillips screwdriver.

I don't believe that there could be something like an objective view on "Wenger vs Victorinox".
You proofed that thesis. 

[firiki]

For me, the single most radical SAK Victorinox has come up with until this day is the alox Soldier, without a doubt. I could be missing some very interesting challengers though  

I like to think of the alox Soldier/Pioneer as a great pocket multi-knife -if there's no such word maybe I can coin this term?- that was meant to last for a long time while remaining useful with only minimum care. What an upgrade that was to prior models and what a timeless, elegant design it still is, to my eyes at least, providing one with a decent knife blade and with what to do other things one might be tempted to try do by abusing said knife blade.

Lavish and rugged, for me one of these two is one of the two SAKs everybody should own past a certain age, the other one still being decided by a toss-up between the Ecoline Huntsman or the 91mm Ranger. ... ...