The end is near for the Defender ... (I'm talking about the Land Rover)

[Top-Gear-24]

Just read the sad news on the Top-Gear site.

Apparently Land Rover has decided to pull the plug on the production of the famous Defender, they have been making this icon for as long as 68 years, and I've always had a weak spot for it.  I've always said that once the mortgage on my house was paid off, I would use the extra cash to buy myself a Defender.  But since we still have about 15 years of mortgage to pay, I guess I can kiss that dream goodbye ... 

For the link to the Top-Gear site, click here.

[Whoey]

yes, but unlike most other vehicles, there's still likely to be plenty old Defenders around in 15 years...

[Grant Lamontagne]

This has been coming for a while, and I've been dreading it.  Death of an icon.

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[Higgins617]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

[Nhoj]

That's too bad, they are certainly iconic vehicles. At least you weren't talking about Grant in the title!

[NKlamerus]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

Same here. They kinda faded out with Hummers where i live.

[Higgins617]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

Same here. They kinda faded out with Hummers where i live.

Save for the H1, Hummers were a bit useless. The H2 was basically a heavier uglier Tahoe, with worse gas mileage....

[NKlamerus]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

Same here. They kinda faded out with Hummers where i live.

Save for the H1, Hummers were a bit useless. The H2 was basically a heavier uglier Tahoe, with worse gas mileage....

Totally agree. I'd still take a built and abused H2 over an H3 though.

H2=Rounded Tahoe
H3=Rounded Minivan

[Higgins617]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

Same here. They kinda faded out with Hummers where i live.

Save for the H1, Hummers were a bit useless. The H2 was basically a heavier uglier Tahoe, with worse gas mileage....

Totally agree. I'd still take a built and abused H2 over an H3 though.

H2=Rounded Tahoe
H3=Rounded Minivan

I can agree to that, didn't the 3s have that foolish inline 5 too?

[Top-Gear-24]

I thought they had killed it off a few years back to be honest...

Same here. They kinda faded out with Hummers where i live.

Over here they pop up more and more these last two years or so,  sadly enough mostly bought by people who will never get mut on anything else than the tyres ...  .

You know the type, city folk and businessmen who try to look rugged/outdoors by driving around in a Defender but who will pee their pants when you pull out a 130mm Vic Rangergrip to peel an apple ...

Oh well, that just means more chance for me in buying a 15 year old Defender which hasn't seen any real use  .

[ToolJoe]

  The Defender is my favorite looking Rover. I see one from time to time and that v8 sounds awesome. I'm sure it guzzles gas like its going out of style though 

[Mr. Whippy]

As a resident Land-Rover owner, let me say a few words in Eulogy:

The Land-Rover we now know as a Defender started off as a product from Rover for export.  There was surplus Aluminum sheeting at the end of WWII so it was a bonus to be able to use it as a material, hence the 1948 Series I Land-Rover came with aluminum body on a square painted steel ladder frame.

The original Series 1 Land-Rover was patterned quite heavily after the Willys Jeep.

In the mid 50's, the Land-Rover was stretched from its original 80" wheelbase to 88" with the introduction of the Series II.  Series II Land-Rovers boasted a new, more powerful, and more robust engine.  They came in the Short wheel base (SWB) 88 inches and LWB (Long wheel base) 109".  Minor changes brought the vehicle to what many feel was the pinnacle of the Land-Rovers, the Series IIA.

Minor cosmetic changes came in 1970, with a padded dashpanel and fully synchromeshed transmission in the Series III Land-Rover. 

Not wanting to rest on their laurels, Land-Rover engineers began plans for the next generation Land Rover.  The project was sadly sidelined when Rover was directed from the nationalized parent company to shift profits to bolster other marques.  The Range Rover project took several years longer than originally envisioned and became a separate product line, with the Series III unchanging for nearly a decade when the Land-Rover 90 and 110 (for 90 and 110 inch wheel base) came out with new engines including a V8 petrol.

In 1984 the name "Defender" was added to the Land-Rover moniker for the 90 and 110 trucks.  The troubles for the Defender came when side impact standards were upgraded and vehicles were mandated to have airbags--both of which were extremely difficult to engineer into the existing Defender bodywork.

When times got tough, Land-Rover was sold to BMW who turned around a few years later (after FINALLY getting an AWD BMW to function well) nearly giving Land-Rover to Ford Motor Co.  After a short time under Ford management, the American automotive industry nearly collapsed and Ford sold Land-Rover to TaTa in an attempt to avoid risk of bankruptcy.

The Land-Rover community has been worried about the loss of the Defender line since they had to be pulled out of the US in the mid 1990's.  It's a testament to the basics of its engineering that Land-Rover persisted for 2 more decades in a nearly unchanged form since 1948.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I deal with Land Rover all the time and found a huge shift in quality when TaTa Motors took over.  There is a story (I don't know how true it is) that the owner of TaTa visited the Jaguar and Rover factories and asked the engineers how much it would cost to make these vehicles properly, without all of the quality issues associated with Ford Era vehicles.  The engineers gave a huge number and without blinking the guy wrote a cheque.

I don't know if it is true or not, but I have seen a lot less misaligned body panels and other sloppy handiwork on these cars since TaTa took over.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery

[Mr. Whippy]

I suspect we will see a new vehicle with the Defender name.  It won't be the old Defender in any sense of the word however. 

[Top-Gear-24]

I suspect we will see a new vehicle with the Defender name.  It won't be the old Defender in any sense of the word however. 

I can't wait to see what this new one will look like, let's hope it's a good one ...

Until that day, I will just have to make do with the Defenders I own  .

Here's one of them:

[Smashie]

It's sad, I have had some memorable times in various types (mainly winterised and Wolf).

I must get one, a lightweight would be my choice

[protonpills]

I currently drive a Jeep Wrangler 1994, I've always liked the look of the LR Defender and when I heard the model in the form as we know it now was going to be discontinued I went out and bought a Defender 90 2015 about 18 months ago. It sits in the garage with only about 4000km/2500miles on the clock. I use the Jeep as my daily drive and the LR as my Sunday drive.

[Mr. Whippy]

Heh,

I've owned Land Rovers since 1994, first a 1968 SIIA SWB and now a 1972 SIII LWB.  Last month I bought a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and love it. 

[styx]

Shame. Police here use them a good bit so perhaps I should get inspired by the Blues brothers

[Sea Monster]

Nostalgia is one thing, but I've driven defenders when they were called 110s, and quite frankly - you can keep the damn things.

I have not driven a post-1990 variant, but it would have to be something special to kick me out of the comfort of my (1989) Japanese rig

[Grant Lamontagne]

It would take something special to get me into a Japanese rig.   

Before I bought I my Jeep I looked at the FJ Cruiser and was very unimpressed, and not just by the idiot salesperson.  It was big- way too big for what it was, didn't have 4 doors and the walls in it were so thick that you couldn't see out the sides or back.  Especially the back, as the rear window was half the size of the new Jeep's one, and frankly the Jeep's is too small IMHO.

And, the FJ Cruiser price started around the same as I paid for my fully loaded, 4 door Jeep. 

In fact, the Toyota dealer sent me a .pdf comparison of the XTerra (which I was also considering), the FJ Cruiser and the Jeep Wrangler and highlighted the spots where the Toyota beat the other two.  There's not a lot of places where the FJ is better- it has slightly better fuel economy, and is wider, and will tow up to 5,000lbs while the Jeep will only tow 3500.

Some of the other "wins" in the Toyota column include:

1- a driver's seat folding armrest (the other two have a center console because they have 4 doors and you don't need to access the back seat from the front doors)

2- "premium" cloth seats compared to the just plain cloth seats that the others have, although Chrysler listed my Jeep as having "premium" cloth too- and the seats are heated in my Jeep, something that wasn't even available in the FJ at any price.

3- the FJ cruiser is apparently the only one that comes with a front row LCD screen according to Toyota, so I guess I am just imagining the LCD screen that displays the radio, satellite radio, NAV system and DVD video.

4- the FJ Cruiser also has three 12V sockets while the Jeep only has two, except that my Jeep actually does have three... plus a built in power inverter for plugging in regular stuff.

I just about doubled the base cost of my Jeep with all of the add ons, but it still only came out to about the price of the base model FJ or XTerra.

Oh yeah, and when I test drove the FJ Cruiser I found the ride to be way too soft- almost like being in a marshallow, which sounds nice, but it had an inclinometer on the dash and I actually saw us rolling 10-15 degrees just going around corners, and I was starting to get seasick.  When I returned it to the dealer I mentioned that the suspension was horrible, and he told me this one was a bit rough because it had the off road package.  I said "Stiff?  That was way too soft," and he said "Well, you can buy aftermarket shocks that are more to your liking."

Yeah, that's what I want- to overpay on a truck, then have to buy more stuff for it to be driveable. 

Sorry if anyone here is an FJ driver or enthusiast, but I just don't see why anyone would buy one of those.

Def

[Mr. Whippy]

To me, the FJ Cruiser trades on the rep of the 70's Land Cruisers.  To me, the smurfty lateral and rear visibility is a deal breaker,

600 miles on my Jeep Wrangler isn't a lot, but the visibility s pretty Good,  (the rear window is limited by the tire but the lateral views  are good).

My bggest complaint on old Land Rovers are the drum brakes.  On Defenders (in the US), that's fixed, but prices are crazy and you had better plan on wrenching yourself.

[Grant Lamontagne]

To me, the FJ Cruiser trades on the rep of the 70's Land Cruisers.  To me, the smurfty lateral and rear visibility is a deal breaker,

600 miles on my Jeep Wrangler isn't a lot, but the visibility s pretty Good,  (the rear window is limited by the tire but the lateral views  are good).

My bggest complaint on old Land Rovers are the drum brakes.  On Defenders (in the US), that's fixed, but prices are crazy and you had better plan on wrenching yourself.

They don't hold a candle to the original Land Cruisers.  In fact, I think the folks at Toyota that made the decision to sully the old Land Cruiser's memory with that hunk of junk should all be slapped... hard.

Def

[Mr. Whippy]

To me, the FJ Cruiser trades on the rep of the 70's Land Cruisers.  To me, the smurfty lateral and rear visibility is a deal breaker,

600 miles on my Jeep Wrangler isn't a lot, but the visibility s pretty Good,  (the rear window is limited by the tire but the lateral views  are good).

My bggest complaint on old Land Rovers are the drum brakes.  On Defenders (in the US), that's fixed, but prices are crazy and you had better plan on wrenching yourself.

They don't hold a candle to the original Land Cruisers.  In fact, I think the folks at Toyota that made the decision to sully the old Land Cruiser's memory with that hunk of junk should all be slapped... hard.

Def

Agree.  But then again, the last 3 iterations of the Land Cruisers have been just bloat-moblies as far as I'm concerned.  The last good Land Cruisers were the J60's (just my opinion).

[gregozedobe]

They don't hold a candle to the original Land Cruisers.  In fact, I think the folks at Toyota that made the decision to sully the old Land Cruiser's memory with that hunk of junk should all be slapped... hard.

Agree.  But then again, the last 3 iterations of the Land Cruisers have been just bloat-moblies as far as I'm concerned.  The last good Land Cruisers were the J60's (just my opinion).

I can't agree - My 80 series wagon (4.2L diesel) was stone axe reliable, a great all-rounder, and once I added an aftermarket turbo it wasn't too slow once you got going, and it had the best throttle response (for off-road use) of any 4WD I've driven.  The worst was the Toyota petrol 4.5L six - tons of power and torque, excellent acceleration on the road, but way too snappy when trying to finesse traction in slippery conditions, and it could drink the petrol if you pushed it at all. 

[Mr. Whippy]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the FJ 80 switch to an AWD and away from 4WD?  That's a big change in function and vehicle intent.

[gregozedobe]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the FJ 80 switch to an AWD and away from 4WD?  That's a big change in function and vehicle intent.

The up-market (expensive) versions did, but not the std wagon that I had - it was still part-time 4WD with the old style transfer case (hi-2, hi-4 and Lo-4, no centre diff and manual locking hubs up front).  Because it had long travel coil springs it rode much better in rough terrain than the 40, 60 and 75 series with their leaf spring suspension (and had slightly better traction because it had better compliance).  I raised the suspension and fitted locking diffs F & R which made it pretty capable off-road, but it was still acceptable in town and on the highway - sort of the SAK of 4WDs   

[Mr. Whippy]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the FJ 80 switch to an AWD and away from 4WD?  That's a big change in function and vehicle intent.

The up-market (expensive) versions did, but not the std wagon that I had - it was still part-time 4WD with the old style transfer case (hi-2, hi-4 and Lo-4, no centre diff and manual locking hubs up front).  Because it had long travel coil springs it rode much better in rough terrain than the 40, 60 and 75 series with their leaf spring suspension (and had slightly better traction because it had better compliance).  I raised the suspension and fitted locking diffs F & R which made it pretty capable off-road, but it was still acceptable in town and on the highway - sort of the SAK of 4WDs   

Dang! Toyota only sends the super-bloats over  here

We don't get any of the good rigs

[Sea Monster]

Sorry if anyone here is an FJ driver or enthusiast, but I just don't see why anyone would buy one of those.

I'm a keen Toyota enthusiast, and I'd have more faith in taking a Camry outback than an FJ, so you don't have to persuade me.

The last good Land Cruisers were the J60's (just my opinion).

Sixties were good, though I've had some good times in an 80 (and make no apologies for being comfortable while doing it)

Some would argue the pre-2007 70 series was the "last good" landcruiser. - If you can find one around here in reasonable nick, it commands a kingly price.

In fact, the Toyota dealer sent me a .pdf comparison of the XTerra (which I was also considering), the FJ Cruiser and the Jeep Wrangler and highlighted the spots where the Toyota beat the other two.  There's not a lot of places where the FJ is better- it has slightly better fuel economy, and is wider, and will tow up to 5,000lbs while the Jeep will only tow 3500.

Ah yes, the "on paper" test.

Famous for being completely pointless.

If not for cost of accessories and availability of repairs/parts, (and looking like a bit of a dill) I'd happily drive a TK jeep

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree that the on paper test is pretty well useless, which is a large part of why I am surprised they would have sent it to me, since useless or not it didn't paint their product in a very good light.

Shows the salesman didn't even actually look at it.

Def