Power tools getting crappier or am I expecting too much?

[jzmtl]

So my latest experience with more expensive power tools hasn't been stellar.

I first bought a Bosch colt palm router, and while in use I found out that the shaft isn't perfectly perpendicular to the base. It was off by a few degrees and if I were to route an edge with both front and back facing work piece, where the two meets is different. At first I thought it was my sample, so I went to a different store to check out their stock, exactly the same problem, the shaft is tilted to the same direction for the same amount.

Next I wasn't happy with the shaft run out on my store brand dremel since it makes sharpening forstener bits etc not precise. Was going to get a proxxon but dremel 4000 came up for a good price so I bought that. Well the shaft run out wasn't any better than my knockoff that costs less than half, if I put a straight bit in and turn it on I can feel the vibration when touching the spinning bit.

Then I bought a cordless circular saw, another Bosch. The blade wasn't perfectly perpendicular to base again so I adjusted the set screw. It turned out that even with the set screw all the way in it's still not perpendicular, because the motor is hitting the base plate so range of adjustment isn't enough to fix the problem.

To be fair, as construction tools they are fine, the two or three degree difference isn't going to be any problem. But I wanted something with precision. So am I expecting too much from tools at this price point, or are power tool quality are just getting crappier? If I have to move up to something like festool then this hobby is way more expensive than I bargained for. 

[derekmac]

You're not expecting too much at all. Even good brand name tools are starting to get worse in quality.

I compare Bosch (and others) to Leatherman. They were considered one of the best, but with recent QC problems, they are falling down the ladder.

We have two Bosch lithium drills at work that are not used on a daily basis, and in under a year, three batteries have crapped out.

[derekmac]

I'm starting to buy Rigid tools now. They might not be the best, but they have the best warranty going.

[Syph007]

Ive only bought dewalt the last few years.  Cordless drill, reciprocating demolition saw and palm sander have all worked flawless and no problems at all.

The only cheap thing I still buy is ryobi cordless drills, but I use them as small part holders when I grind, so the tips of the drills get worn down.  I wouldnt use a 'good' drill for this type of abuse.

[dks]

I have some B&D pro grade tools, but I am also happy with LIDL tools

[JAfromMn]

Bad luck.

[ironraven]

QC on EVERYTHING has gone down hill. I blame a mix of bean counting [censored] halfwits who think that it is better to make a junk product and pissoff a largely captive customer base than to make something that not only lasts but works right in the first place. Software has been betas at best, usually alphas, ever since the internet allowed ready updates, and physical items treated as short term disposables.

I've got a lovely rant that goes along with this about the fall western civilization but people would get their noses out of joint

[Higgins617]

QC on EVERYTHING has gone down hill. I blame a mix of bean counting [censored] halfwits who think that it is better to make a junk product and pissoff a largely captive customer base than to make something that not only lasts but works right in the first place. Software has been betas at best, usually alphas, ever since the internet allowed ready updates, and physical items treated as short term disposables.

I've got a lovely rant that goes along with this about the fall western civilization but people would get their noses out of joint

Well I'm slightly interested, so if you don't post it you can pm it to me!

[jzmtl]

I don't think it's really QC, the Bosch routers are both very precise, precisely off by the same amount...

Now I remembered something, someone on another forum contacted Bosch regarding his drill having too much runout, their response was "it's not a precision tool, deal with it".

I guess they are construction tools after all, and the design and tooling reflect it.

Was going to replace my store brand table saw with a Bosch soon, guess that won't happen anymore.

[PTRSAK]

QC on EVERYTHING has gone down hill. I blame a mix of bean counting [censored] halfwits who think that it is better to make a junk product and pissoff a largely captive customer base than to make something that not only lasts but works right in the first place. Software has been betas at best, usually alphas, ever since the internet allowed ready updates, and physical items treated as short term disposables.

I've got a lovely rant that goes along with this about the fall western civilization but people would get their noses out of joint

Why do I get the feeling that I would agree on most if not all points you cared to make.

But as far as power tools go,  I have an 240v electric drill that I've had 25 years and it was my father's before that for at least another 10-15 years. STILL GOING STRONG. Any powertools I buy these days crap out after a few years.
AND no, the near 1/2 century old drill is not some uber expensive pro series unit, just a middle of the road consumer product and the new stuff I buy is similar level gear.
Quality and QC these days is generally smurf smurf.

[jzmtl]

QC on EVERYTHING has gone down hill. I blame a mix of bean counting [censored] halfwits who think that it is better to make a junk product and pissoff a largely captive customer base than to make something that not only lasts but works right in the first place. Software has been betas at best, usually alphas, ever since the internet allowed ready updates, and physical items treated as short term disposables.

I've got a lovely rant that goes along with this about the fall western civilization but people would get their noses out of joint

Why do I get the feeling that I would agree on most if not all points you cared to make.

But as far as power tools go,  I have an 240v electric drill that I've had 25 years and it was my father's before that for at least another 10-15 years. STILL GOING STRONG. Any powertools I buy these days crap out after a few years.
AND no, the near 1/2 century old drill is not some uber expensive pro series unit, just a middle of the road consumer product and the new stuff I buy is similar level gear.
Quality and QC these days is generally smurf smurf.

Engineered obsolescence.

[captain spaulding]

I just see it as this. No one has pride in their product anymore. Its all about producing the most product at the cheapest cost to maximize profit. Its all about making money not making a superior product. Its a shame really.

[derekmac]

I just see it as this. No one has pride in their product anymore. Its all about producing the most product at the cheapest cost to maximize profit. Its all about making money not making a superior product. Its a shame really.

You nailed it Capt.  It is a shame.  Before when you bought a big name product at a big name price, 9/10 times you got a tool that was very well built, and was meant to last.  My father has a very old Makita circular saw, and it's seen more than its fair share of abuse, and it still "feels" better than the new Makita saws.  I highly doubt the new ones would last as long as his old one.

Was going to replace my store brand table saw with a Bosch soon, guess that won't happen anymore.

I would really like to get a Powermatic, but they're slightly out of my price range!  I'll stick with my old Craftsman.  Again the keyword is old.  My father used to make kitchen cabinets using this saw, and it's been moved around, used as a step stool, and is still about dead on as possible.

[Mr. Whippy]

I just see it as this. No one has pride in their product anymore. Its all about producing the most product at the cheapest cost to maximize profit. Its all about making money not making a superior product. Its a shame really.

You nailed it Capt.  It is a shame.  Before when you bought a big name product at a big name price, 9/10 times you got a tool that was very well built, and was meant to last.  My father has a very old Makita circular saw, and it's seen more than its fair share of abuse, and it still "feels" better than the new Makita saws.  I highly doubt the new ones would last as long as his old one.

Was going to replace my store brand table saw with a Bosch soon, guess that won't happen anymore.

I would really like to get a Powermatic, but they're slightly out of my price range!  I'll stick with my old Craftsman.  Again the keyword is old.  My father used to make kitchen cabinets using this saw, and it's been moved around, used as a step stool, and is still about dead on as possible.

Ok, so my wife is actually a very serious woodworker.  We have precisely one Bosch tool:  A compound sliding miter saw.  It was not cheap.  ~$800 for the saw alone.  It is an excellent saw, but you can't buy one at Home Depot.  We bought ours from a specialty woodworking store.  Same is true about the table saw.  It's a Powermatic and is so far superior to box store saws,  they are not really the same tool.  Same is true about the bandsaw, the planer, the belt sander, etc.  What you buy at the box stores are built to meet a price point, determined by what buyers are willing to pay.  Quality is cut until the price point is met with the desired level of profit.

In a sense, consumers do it to themselves. 

[derekmac]

I'd call 90+% of what you can buy at box stores contractor grade equipment. Some are definitely better than others, but none will be able to meet the standards of the tools you get at specialty shops.

You are right about consumers doing it to themselves. We want high quality, but are not willing to pay for it (for the most part). People think of the known big names that the box stores sell, and think they are great.

I bet that if you were to stand in a Home Depot and ask people looking at say table saws if they've considered Powermatic, and they'd probable give you an odd look. Same with names like Festool.

Most people are not professional woodworkers (I'm not) so higher end box store tools will usually be good enough. For me, even though I'm no pro, I'd rather now save more money to get a top quality tool than get a good tool.

[magentus]

I think this 'Race to the bottom' mentality of manufacturers nowadays is what draws me to Victorinox, who still manage to produce a top quality product, while treating their workers well and providing a second-to-none after sales service.


It shows it can be done, and I disagree with you Mr Whippy, that consumers do it to themselves - our wages don't go as far as they use to, and we are 'encouraged' to keep on buying stuff, rather than have one, good quality item for all the years we use it and then hand it down to someone else. That idea doesn't suit the system.

There's no incentive for a manufacturer to produce something that will last over a couple of generations if they can sell several times to the same person.

[Mr. Whippy]

Most people are not professional woodworkers (I'm not) so higher end box store tools will usually be good enough. For me, even though I'm no pro, I'd rather now save more money to get a top quality tool than get a good tool.

What we've found is, with the better tools, there are WAY fewer recuts and finish work is dramatically decreased.  That's what precision does for you.

[dks]

[ToolJoe]

   When I was a vendor in big box stores, our power tool of choice was Dewalt. The batteries were awful. They would crap out in the cold and the thing that drives me the nuts most is the batteries are basically toast when they are on their last legs. I asked a Dewalt rep if they ever thought about offering a battery rebuild service and he laughed at me  .

[Higgins617]

A friend of mine says this now depends where you buy the product as well. He works for the city as a "painter" but really he does carpentry, electrical, plumbing, and whatever else. He told us that a DeWalt drill you get at Home Depot will be a far different tool than what you get from say Grainger.

And it makes sense, I've heard of Wal-Mart doing the same asking companies to meet a certain price point. So I really would be surprised. Apparently the part numbers on tools you'd think are the same are totally different.

[derekmac]

...He told us that a DeWalt drill you get at Home Depot will be a far different tool than what you get from say Grainger.

I've heard that as well.

[jzmtl]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

[gregozedobe]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think people are saying two tools from the same company that look very similar are not - they have different part numbers and are of very different quality.

[derekmac]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

[Mr. Whippy]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

Absolutely this.  That's what Walmart has done for decades, especially with electronic goods.  It's why Best Buy, and high end stereo places don't have to price match the identically named televisions which have model numbers that differ by a prefix or suffix letter.

[ToolJoe]

  Milwaukee manufacturers Ryobi items for Home Depot at a different plant under different specs.

[Noa Isumi]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

exactly that. When Walmart started selling Tippman Paintball guns they demanded a specific price point from Tippman. The problem was there was no way Tippman could meet this point with the '98 so they left out the milling that allows you to upgrade your gun with aftermarket parts and changed the model number but not the name. So kids/parents would come to my buddy's shop asking for upgrade parts and get mad at him because he'd say he couldn't install them. They later added the word "coustom" to the non Walmart guns. 

The same happens with all brands/products. Catapiller boot used to be made by Wolverine, Wolverine used to all be made in US; Craftsmen welders used to be Lincoln, then Campbell Hausfeld now who knows. 

Sub contractors of subcontractors all to increase profitability of products the been counters see as disposable, while everyone else sees their tools as their life blood.

[Higgins617]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

exactly that. When Walmart started selling Tippman Paintball guns they demanded a specific price point from Tippman. The problem was there was no way Tippman could meet this point with the '98 so they left out the milling that allows you to upgrade your gun with aftermarket parts. So kids/parents would come to my buddy's shop asking for upgrade parts and get mad at him because he'd say he couldn't install them.   

The same happens with all brands/products. Catapiller boot used to be made by Wolverine, Wolverine used to all be made in US; Craftsmen welders used to be Lincoln, then Campbell Hausfeld now who knows. 

Sub contractors of subcontractors all to increase profitability of products the been counters see as disposable, while everyone else sees their tools as their life blood.

It's sad , If I were to make something I would do so with utmost pride in what I make, not just trying to make the biggest profit.

[Noa Isumi]

We used to have to run off comp shoppers at the shop all the time, asking about makes and models of Paintball, skateboard, and Cycling gear that they could get out of Wally's distribution center. Evrey time we would change what we offered they would come in and a few weeks late they would have something the similar, cheaper. Ultimately Scot was down to just selling airfills and out of business..

Big box stores don't worry about selling some things at a loss if it gets people through the doors. Just look at the Meat Dept. I ran one for 3 years after being laid off at the factory. We would sell most of the steaks and all "premium" meats at a loss just to get people through the doors to buy other stuff.

[Mr. Whippy]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

exactly that. When Walmart started selling Tippman Paintball guns they demanded a specific price point from Tippman. The problem was there was no way Tippman could meet this point with the '98 so they left out the milling that allows you to upgrade your gun with aftermarket parts. So kids/parents would come to my buddy's shop asking for upgrade parts and get mad at him because he'd say he couldn't install them.   

The same happens with all brands/products. Catapiller boot used to be made by Wolverine, Wolverine used to all be made in US; Craftsmen welders used to be Lincoln, then Campbell Hausfeld now who knows. 

Sub contractors of subcontractors all to increase profitability of products the been counters see as disposable, while everyone else sees their tools as their life blood.

It's sad , If I were to make something I would do so with utmost pride in what I make, not just trying to make the biggest profit.

Ok, so here's the critical thing:

If you were making it with a company YOU owned, you can do that because you take pride in the product and are willing to take less profit to maintain a quality you're proud of (and can offer your skilled workers salary and benefits to keep your skilled workforce).

If you decide to go global, though you would need to raise a bunch of capital to expand and so...

You would talk to a bunch of venture capitalists etc who would tell you, you can get the money but you need to take your company public and sell stock (or sell controlling interest to the venture capitalists).  They promise they share your values, and everyone can make money this way, blah, blah, blah...

Then, the day comes when they decide they want bigger profits.  Yes you make a great product, but couldn't you make essentially the same thing for 15% less?  Do you have to use the top grade steel? Do you HAVE to do 8 finishing steps? Couldn't you do it a little simpler?  It's the finish afterall, not the function of the product...

Before long, you're making short cuts to satisfy investors who what greater profits and want to boost stock prices.

It's a slippery slope.

It's why some businesses eventually try to take their publicly traded corps private again. 

It's a difficult dance in the business world.