Would a multitool have stopped the air crash?

[dks]

The sad events that led to the last air "accident" made me wonder whether if the captain had a multitool on him he would have been able to enter the cabin and take charge, saving the passengers?
The two measures taken to prevent such tragedies - locking the cabin and not allowing any "dangerous" tools onboard may have caused the latest tragedy rather than prevent it. There was an accident in Greece too where if people were able to enter the cockpit area it may have been prevented.... just thinking out loudly....

[Corwyn]

Thought about it as well, but seriously doubt it: the new cabin doors are built to withstand bullets and even grenade explosions.
I know some companies have a safety axe for such occasions, but Lufthansa being Lufthansa I doubt even an axe would break the door   

Still... shocking development and shocking news... even moreso as I'll be travelling with GermanWings on Tuesday...

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

The next thing will be the return of the flight engineer I reckon so as to prevent a single person being in sole command of the aircraft.

Such a horrific thing

[Corwyn]

[Corwyn]

The next thing will be the return of the flight engineer I reckon so as to prevent a single person being in sole command of the aircraft.

Such a horrific thing

I guess, but it wouldn't help much. I mean one crazy, suicidal 100 Kg pilot versus a 35 Kg unaware flight-attendant. He'd swipe her away and do his business.

Look what happened in Japan as 2 male fit pilots could barely contain the third one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350

[Syncop8r]

What if it was the crazy pilot trying to get in... with a multitool?

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

The next thing will be the return of the flight engineer I reckon so as to prevent a single person being in sole command of the aircraft.

Such a horrific thing

I guess, but it wouldn't help much. I mean one crazy, suicidal 100 Kg pilot versus a 35 Kg unaware flight-attendant. He'd swipe her away and do his business.

Look what happened in Japan as 2 male fit pilots could barely contain the third one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350

I suppose that's true

End of the day nothing is truly 100% preventable. The ruthlessly determined will always find a way sadly.

[Rossko07]

What if it was the crazy pilot trying to get in... with a multitool?

Excellent point.

But, are we really even going there with this topic??

[PTRSAK]

Trust me.  All a MT is going to do to that door is scratch the paint. (I work on them)

[dks]

Watching the news, many companies are now re-evaluating their policies, regarding safety and security in airplanes and hopefully a new safer system will emerge - or more likely a knee-jerk reaction will prevail, leading to more pointless rules...

[Corwyn]

I'm afraid I was right:

The captain locked out of the cockpit of the Germanwings plane that crashed in the French Alps used an axe to try and force his way back in, German daily Bild said on Friday, citing security sources.
The cockpit flight recorder showed that the captain repeatedly knocked and tried to get back in as the plane went into its fatal descent, French prosecutors said. However, Bild reported that the captain also tried using an axe to break down the cockpit's armoured door.
This could not be immediately confirmed, but a spokesman for Germanwings confirmed to news agency AFP that an axe was on board the aircraft.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Good on him for having a go though.

[Whoey]

It's a terrible tragedy, the more they uncover the worse it seems.

That being said, I don't think anyone should be alone in the cockpit. Even less someone only 27 years old and with just 600 someodd hours of flight experience, I would say at least 30 with 1000 hours before being a bit more relaxed. I'm sorry but it doesn't strike me as a mature enough person to be in control, even if it's on autopilot.

Surely the latest (that he was suffering from depression etc) should have been communicated to the airline directly from his doctor. Privacy issues aside, that person is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, and should not be carrying on his job. The doctor shouldn't need to share private details of why, only that he is unfit.

[Aloha]

It's such a devastating event that leaves me  .

I have no words to express how deeply sad this makes me and my heart goes out to all who lost someone in this.   

[tosh]

I know nothing on this subject.
But I have to ask.

How far fetched would it be for air traffic controllers to take control of the plane in these situations.

I am ofcourse referring to drone technology

[dks]

I think the pilot took the airplane out of "auto" so traffic control could do nothing. The pilot has to allow them to take control. 

[tosh]

I think the pilot took the airplane out of "auto" so traffic control could do nothing. The pilot has to allow them to take control.

I see, but I'm guessing ALL flights follow a distinct flight path. Am I right in thinking that modern planes are on auto pilot much of the way. So, I'm inferring if the plane suddenly deviated from its projected path couldn't it raise the alarm at air traffic systems and allow them to take over the plane?? Wouldn't such technology have prevented 9/11?

[dks]

As far as I am aware it is not possible to take over the plane if the person in the cockpit does not want you too. There was a similar situation with the Helios flight over Greece a few years ago, when the pilots became unconscious, people could not get in the cockpit, and air traffic control could not do anything about it.

I am sure the experts here will clarify it more

[derekmac]

If pilots do not respond within a certain time frame, ATC should be able to take control of the plane.  If pilots are in control, then they shouldn't be able to, unless they can be certain that something major is going on.  If they were able to take control at will, you could have someone that has snapped decide to down an aircraft.

There's no perfect system that can be implemented with aircraft, as there are too many variables to account for.  Could it be made better though?  Of course.

[Cupboard]

I'd go for one stage simpler than full control, if instead of the person in the cockpit having the last word who can and can't get in, how about just allowing remote access for that?

In most circumstances things would act exactly as they do now, but in a case such as this one the people that are locked out can call home and get the door unlocked from the ground.

[derekmac]

Remote unlock would be a really good idea actually.  If the pilot is acting strange, or not responding, just unlock the door, or be able to provide a means for a flight attendant to unlock it.  There really does need to be some safety net in place for things like this can no longer happen.


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[BASguy]

Keypad cockpit door access for Air Marshals has been on the table for awhile.  Frankly, at the ridiculous cost of travel as it is, the airlines need to pull the trigger and retrofit all these doors for combo/remote access and man every flight with a Marshal.  Every flight has a crew, so it's the cost of doing business.  If ticket prices go up, that's the cost of travel.  Deal with it.


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[tjfarrington2000]

What I want to know is why we have to have all these rules. They all just seem to make things worse than before. Things were better off before 9/11, I mean victorinox sold full sized 91mm Swiss army multi tools on commercial airlines without regulation. Darn terrorists.


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[PTRSAK]

Speaking as an AME (aircraft maintenance engineer) with 35 years in the trade...

1. there is no "remote control" option. ATC can not take control or turn on/off the autopilot.
hell, they can't even read the aircraft's current airspeed/altitude/position without the pilot telling them. MH370 or AF447 for example.

2. the armoured cockpit door is designed to keep people OUT of the cockpit. Having any method of unlocking it from outside negates the entire reason for having it. A keypad code is just a HUGE security risk. Information leaks... you may as well write the passcode on a post-it note stuck under the fwd hostie's seat.

This tragedy is a failing of "the system" to pick up on a pilot who it appears was mentally unfit to fly.
Long gone are the days when pilots were highly paid, highly trained, super-professional demigods.
Sadly, due to the constant commercial pressure to make seat prices as low as possible ALL aspects of the airline industry fall victim to cost-cutting and (many) pilots these days are underpaid, under-trained and under-experienced.

Maintenance is sent offshore to 3rd party non airline maintenance companies who care little for "brand image", the "final 10%" and making things perfect. They want to get the aircraft in and out in the least possible time and effort to maximise profits.

It's the same as it was 20+ years ago, the flying public care more about air fares than air safety. They'll happily fly "Dodgy Brothers Air" to save a hundred dollars on a flight halfway around the world.

and don't hold your breath on any "ground breaking" technology being introduced to counter the "rouge pilot" problem any time soon.  Aviation regulators move with glacial speed and airlines driven by bean-counters will resist spending yet more money.

But "at the end of the day"  air travel is safer than it's ever been.
In the mid 90's it was predicted/forecast, at the then current accident rate per milion passenger km, with the projected growth in air traffic, that by now there would be a major "hull loss" air accident NEARLY EVERY WEEK.
This has not come to pass because of advances in technology and other things like "Human Factors" awareness and training.
Luckily for all of us who fly, this has far more than offset the decrease in other areas of air safety (including terrorism).

I saw a statistic once (can't find it right now) that said you are over 20 times more likely to die on the cab ride to the airport than on a commercial flight.
Ever thought twice about jumping in a taxi?

/rant     I need a lay down.

[Luna Knife]

A Mora 2000 might have been able to be hammered through the cockpit casing

[PTRSAK]

Unlikely.  These doors used to be little more than a privacy screen but after Sept11 they were made (mandatory) to be resistant to forcible entry.

from FAR129.28

"(2) The door must resist forcible intrusion by unauthorized persons and be capable of withstanding impacts of 300 joules (221.3 foot-pounds) at the critical locations on the door, as well as a 1,113-newton (250 pounds) constant tensile load on the knob or handle, and

(3) The door must resist penetration by small arms fire and fragmentation devices to a level equivalent to Level IIIa of the National Institute of Justice Standard (NIJ) 0101.04. "

[dks]

So it may be easier to break the wall next to the door...

[sawman]

Get rid of the impenetrable cockpits and arm the pilots.

[dks]

In that case, the co-pilot would have probably shot the pilot.... 

[Chako]

Thank you PTRSAK for bringing much levity to this discussion.

There are no easy answers to this situation. I am just thankful this does not happen more often. This tells me that the systems in place does a good job overall. No system is foolproof however, and thus we get tragedies like this.

My condolences to the families who have lost loved ones on this flight.