Juice KF4 appropriate for police

[Rico-2]

Leatherman Juice KF4 appropriate for law enforcement

Why did Leatherman discontinue its Juice KF4? The KF4 would be a useful multi tool for law enforcement and security personel, especially in combination with the Leatherman Removable Bit Driver.

http://www.leatherman.com/juice-kf4-87.html

The KF4 could be reintroduced targeting this user group. But it would also be a handy and lightweight tool for airforce pilots, campers, survivalists, technicians, climbers, etc.   

The Leatherman Removable Bit Driver fits on the short Philips screw-driver of the KF4, and supports Leatherman’s flat double sided screw bits, as well as regular 1/4 inch hex screw bits.

The KF4 weights 5.5 ounce (165 grams), and should be made even lighter for police, by removing the plain edge blade. The plain edge blade can be omitted, since there is also a serrated blade and wood saw on the KF4.

The wood saw and metal file in the Juice can be useful in a disaster situation, like a flood or hurricane. One could for example improvise emergency shelters, stretchers and splints, etc. from branches, with a wood saw.

The metal file should be three- or four sided, so it can be used somewhat to saw soft metals. I find it important that police officers carry multi tools, that are also useful in a disaster situation.

The remaining tools on the Juice KF4 for police should be:
Wire Cutters
Hard-wire Cutters
Needlenose Pliers
Regular Pliers

Serrated Knife
Saw

Medium/Large Screwdriver
Phillips Screwdriver
Extra-small Screwdriver

Needle-awl
Diamond-coated File
Ruler

If a police officer needs to carry scissors, it is preferable that they choose separate small lightweight trauma scissors. Those should be large enough to cut clothing from a wounded limb. Scissors that fit into a Juice, would often be too small for this application.   

All the tools in the KF4 should be replaceable by the consumer, by attaching them with bolts and nuts, instead of rivets. That is especially important for the Philips screw-driver, that is vulnerable to wear. So two of those spare Philips screw-drivers, should be added at the purchase-kit.

The blade of the KF4 should have a locking mechanism for self-defense purposes, for police use.

This police multi tool can be highly priced, because for police services, quality and usability are more important than price. And police services often buy multi tools in very large volumes at a reduced price.

http://www.leatherman.com/juice-kf4-87.html#q=juice&start=8

Een alternative for law enforcement could be the Leatherman Wave, but that is too heavy to carry permanently for police officers, who must be able to run in pursuit. And police equipment on the body nowadays has become pretty heavy altogether: bodycam, taser, pepperspray, handgun with spare mags, expandable baton, bullet-proof vest, sometimes a submachine gun with mags and helmet, etc. So a police multi tool that is permanently carried, should be lightweight these days.

But the heavy Leatherman Wave, Surge and Crunch are still appropriate to carry in a police car, or in a police motor-bike luggage box. So they should not be permanently worn on the body by police officers.

For permanent carry by police officers, Leatherman should develop an adapted mini version of the Wave, that weighs only 4 ounce (110 grams), and has less tools than the original Wave.

But the essential large bit driver, serrated blade and wood saw, etc. should be kept, just like I listed above about the Leap KF4.

http://www.leatherman.com/wave-10.html#q=wave&start=1

Leatherman should also develop a mini version of the orange Skeletool RX rescue multi tool for police officers. That  should be without the carbiner/bottle opener, and should weigh about 3 ounce (85 grams).

[Fortytwo]

Is the Juice line really up to a task such as this? What I seem to remember about mine before I lost it was a feeling that the small size really made it a bit awkward to use and that blades and the like didn't inspire confidence (mostly the part where they are thinner at the base). You have the quantity of tools but are they up for such heavy use? Then again I never really saw the use of these <4" saws that so many SAKs and other tools have. You are also suggesting a locking blade, something the Juice frame was never built for (to my knowledge).

If I was to look for a tool for a LE/rescue I would take more than one look at something similar to what Wenger made for the Alinghi sailing team. Including the seemingly much elusive Strap cutter pictured. So maybe a RangerGrip 90 with frame strap-cutter, pocket clip, partially serrated blade and the can-opener replaced with a cap-lifter (the thicker pry-bar style) or combo-tool.

[Rico-2]

Is the Juice line really up to a task such as this? What I seem to remember about mine before I lost it was a feeling that the small size really made it a bit awkward to use and that blades and the like didn't inspire confidence (mostly the part where they are thinner at the base). You have the quantity of tools but are they up for such heavy use? Then again I never really saw the use of these <4" saws that so many SAKs and other tools have. You are also suggesting a locking blade, something the Juice frame was never built for (to my knowledge).

If I was to look for a tool for a LE/rescue I would take more than one look at something similar to what Wenger made for the Alinghi sailing team. Including the seemingly much elusive Strap cutter pictured. So maybe a RangerGrip 90 with frame strap-cutter, pocket clip, partially serrated blade and the can-opener replaced with a cap-lifter (the thicker pry-bar style) or combo-tool.

Thanks for your reply. A tiny wood saw can be enough to saw branches in a circular movement.

If The Juice KF4 would be too weak for certain heavy tasks in a rescue scene, a police officer can often walk to his police car or motor bike. There he can take out from his glove compartment his second multitool, that is heavier, preferably a Leatherman Crunch, Wave or Surge.

IMO these larger multi tools are too heavy to run, climb and fight with, together with the other heavy police equipment, that I mentioned. Hence my preference for the Juice KF4 or even Leatherman Squirt PS4 for police officers to carry.

The Wenger Ranger Grip that you mention, weighs 255 g (326 g with pouch and 2 bits). That is too heavy for permanent carry by a police officer IMO, especially if he or she is somewhat smaller built. And as far as I know, the multi tool production from Wenger, is taken over by Victorinox.

[Fortytwo]

Is the Juice line really up to a task such as this? What I seem to remember about mine before I lost it was a feeling that the small size really made it a bit awkward to use and that blades and the like didn't inspire confidence (mostly the part where they are thinner at the base). You have the quantity of tools but are they up for such heavy use? Then again I never really saw the use of these <4" saws that so many SAKs and other tools have. You are also suggesting a locking blade, something the Juice frame was never built for (to my knowledge).

If I was to look for a tool for a LE/rescue I would take more than one look at something similar to what Wenger made for the Alinghi sailing team. Including the seemingly much elusive Strap cutter pictured. So maybe a RangerGrip 90 with frame strap-cutter, pocket clip, partially serrated blade and the can-opener replaced with a cap-lifter (the thicker pry-bar style) or combo-tool.

Thanks for your reply. A tiny wood saw can be enough to saw branches in a circular movement.

If The Juice KF4 would be too weak for certain heavy tasks in a rescue scene, a police officer can often walk to his police car of motor bike. There he can take out from his glove compartment his second multitool, that is heavier, preferably a Leatherman Crunch, Wave or Surge.

IMO these larger multi tools are too heavy to run, climb and fight with, together with the other heavy police equipment, that I mentioned. Hence my preference for the Juice KF4 or even Leatherman Squirt PS4 for police officers to carry.

The Wenger Ranger Grip that you mention, weighs 255 g (326 g with pouch and 2 bits). That is too heavy for permanent carry by a police officer IMO, especially if he or she is somewhat smaller built. And as far as I know, the multi tool production from Wenger, is taken over by Victorinox.

Fair enough, especially the bold part. I only have a much smaller RangerGrip without the pliers (probably the heaviest implement). Mine is in fact made by Victorinox.

[chrono]

@Rico: you were describing the old style Surge  I think any Juice is too small for cops. They would lose these Juicy puppies thru the donut holes so easily.

[yud]

I see a few problems with this:

Making the juice so you could easily replace bits would require a complete redesign and a change of Leatherman's culture.  Unless you like fiddling with things as is the multiple liners of the juice are a pian and the spring have to be redone every time the tool is opened up.  Also Leatherman has never trusted the user to fiddle with the tools themselves.

Second they are expensive tools, no idea why but they are, and you want some major edits, I doubt it would be cost effective.  Also I don't know where you live but I always thought police budgets were tight.

A locking blade is possible, evil did it, but a couple of thoughts on that, I have never heard of police being in knife fights and you have gotten rid of the blade that has a point.

Have you used a kf4?  I only aske because the file already has a saw on it.

The Jucie is already pretty slim when talking about saving weight.  I would not eliminate a layer it will give an unpleasant feeling in the hands.

Also check out this thread, it has links to the juice mods and the patent
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,65518.0.html

[Rico-2]

yud: Making the juice so you could easily replace bits would require a complete redesign and a change of Leatherman's culture. Unless you like fiddling with things as is the multiple liners of the juice are a pain and the spring have to be redone every time the tool is opened up. 

Rico-2: Would the same apply for the Wave? Maybe Leatherman can make a miniature version of the Surge for police? My experience is that you can do an awul lot of tasks mith micro-tools, like a 1.5 inch long wood saw blade en 1.5 inch long serrated knife.

yud: Second they are expensive tools, no idea why but they are, and you want some major edits, I doubt it would be cost effective. Also I don't know where you live but I always thought police budgets were tight.

Rico-2: If Leatherman would mass-produce such a light-weight police-Juice, then the resulting price may be affordable for police budgets IMO. But I mean, the multi tool should have quality, because sometimes lives are at stake in police work and seconds count.

yud: A locking blade is possible, evil did it, but a couple of thoughts on that, I have never heard of police being in knife fights and you have gotten rid of the blade that has a point.

Rico-2 I see what you mean.

yud: Have you used a kf4? I only ask because the file already has a saw on it.

Rico-2 I don't own one.

yud: The Jucie is already pretty slim when talking about saving weight.  I would not eliminate a layer it will give an unpleasant feeling in the hands.

Rico-2 But police officers use multitools only incidentally and shortly, so  that distress might be acceptable. 

yud: Also check out this thread, it has links to the juice mods and the patent

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,65518.0.html

Rico-2 Thanks. That is very interesting stuff.

[sLaughterMed]

Would the same apply for the Wave? Maybe Leatherman can make a miniature version of the Surge for police? My experience is that you can do an awul lot of tasks mith micro-tools, like a 1.5 inch long wood saw blade en 1.5 inch long serrated knife.

The wave is much more "mod friendly" than the Juice series, and would not require a major redesign. However, the Wave is basically already a larger KF4 (just swaped some drivers for the bit driver, and the awl for scissors).

I think a Wave sized Surge with outside opening large scissors, an awl and a blade exchangeer could be feasible.

I dont Leatherman will be making a LEO geared tool anytime soon. Gerber has been tailoring their tools for military and other mission specific contracts for years, but Leatherman doesn't seem interested in trying to compete for similar contracts.

[Brock O Lee]

The Juice's pliers feels quite flimsy compared to the Rebar. When I squeeze both of them, the Juice has quite a lot of give, which does not inspire confidence for any work other than light use IMO.

[Rico-2]

sLaughterMed: The wave is much more "mod friendly" than the Juice series, and would not require a major redesign. However, the Wave is basically already a larger KF4 (just swapped some drivers for the bit driver, and the awl for scissors).

Rico-2: Could Leatherman produce a miniature version of a Wave-like or Surge-like multitool, under 5 ounce, for law enforcement? It doesn't need screw-drivers at all, since it has the bit-driver. And also the scissors can be omitted. 

If they would call that product: 'Police Multi Tool', it might become very popular, because that concept wpuld appeal to many consumers outside law enforcement als well iMO.

That multi tool would also be ideal for disaster preparation, and could be advised by FEMA and American Red Cross as part of a disaster survival kit and Bug Out Bag. In a Bug Out Bag, that is carried as a backpack, 5 ounce is the maximum weight for the multitool IMO.

Separate small light-weight trauma scissors can be delivered in the same pouch. Then those scissors can be left in the car, if they are too heavy to carry permanently for a police officer. These trauma scissors should be approx. 4 inch long.

sLaughterMed: I dont think Leatherman will be making a LEO geared tool anytime soon. Gerber has been tailoring their tools for military and other mission specific contracts for years, but Leatherman doesn't seem interested in trying to compete for similar contracts.

Rico-2:: As far as I know, Gerber has no multi tool under 5 ounce, with dedicated wire cutters, that is appropriate for permanent carry by police officers.

[Rico-2]

The Juice's pliers feels quite flimsy compared to the Rebar. When I squeeze both of them, the Juice has quite a lot of give, which does not inspire confidence for any work other than light use IMO.

But the Rebar is 6.7 ounce (190 grams) which is too heavy for permanent carry on the body by police officers IMO. And in the police car should be a heavy-duty backup multi tool like the nomal Surge, for each officer.

http://www.leatherman.com/rebar-8.html#q=rebar&start=2

[yud]

Have you considered one of SOG's lighter offerings and Paratool (6.1oz) or the PowerPocket Pliers (5.1oz).  They lack outside opening tools and locking blades but I see SOG as more likely to work with someone and they already allow the user to trade out tools.  Plus they have full sized pliers.

Also if I may ask, who are you?  Are you police?  Also, why 5oz?

[alexTOOL]

https://www.leatherman.com/16_01_19_skele.html

Leatherman Skeletool RX

[Rico-2]

why 5oz?

Because that is the lightest weight, that a multi tool can reasonably have, with the desired options that I listed above. But that is my personal subjective estimation, that might be wrong.

Smaller police officers cannot run fast enough in pursuit, if their total carried equipment is too heavy.

[Rico-2]

I see SOG as more likely to work with someone and they already allow the user to trade out tools.

Can all SOG-multi tools be easily repaired by customers themselves? By replacing the integrated tools for spare parts, including the vulnerable Philips screw-driver?

[derekmac]

If they're already carrying a gun, flash light, handcuffs, taser, radio, club, bulletproof vest, ect, I don't think something like a Wave would be all that noticeable.  At least the weight difference between that and a Juice wouldn't be, IMHO.

[Rico-2]

Leatherman Skeletool RX

I see the Skeletool RX as a useful lightweight multi tool for police carry, esp. because of its flat bit-driver, serrated sheepfoot-blade, orange colour and full-size hard-wire cutters.

But it lacks a wood saw and metal file, that may be needed in a rescue-, disaster-, or terrorist attack scene.

And the blade of the Skeletool RX is much longer than necessary, and the carbiner and bottle opener are not really necessary for law enforcement.

There is also a rumour on Youtube, that the exposed liner-lock of the Skeletools can be unlocked by pushing on it accidentally.   

BTW, are Leatherman-people officially present at this forum to join discussions?

[alexTOOL]

Add to the LM Skeletool RX a DermaSafe saw and you are done...

The glass breaker could be handy for rescue, detentions to get out of a car, as a kubotan for self defense and so on.

[Rico-2]

If they're already carrying a gun, flash light, handcuffs, taser, radio, club, bulletproof vest, ect, I don't think something like a Wave would be all that noticeable.  At least the weight difference between that and a Juice wouldn't be, IMHO.

There are strong and tall officers that carry a medium weight multi tool (like a Wave) without a problem. But some others 'forget' to carry the multi tool, if they find it too heavy, or they run slower carrying it.

If you can shave off two ounce from ten duty items each, that weighs twenty ounce all together. That would be a drag in a sprint behind the fast bad boys.

[Rico-2]

Add to the LM Skeletool RX a DermaSafe saw and you are done...

The glass breaker could be handy for rescue, detentions to get out of a car, as a kubotan for self defense and so on.

Thanks. Adding the DermaSafe saw might be a perfect solution for police and rescue services.

http://www.derma-safe.com/product/utility-saw/

[Reedy]

Just thought I'd give a quick comment, I currently work for the police in England, and from my experience everyone who carries a multitool usually carries a leatherman wave, or a OHT.

I do however think this is because they are offered at a great discount on internal publications etc to officers.

They do get used quite a lot really, from securing doors/locks to breaking windows with the plier tips.

[captain spaulding]

I would personally disagree and say the KF4 is not a ideal option for police at all. This is just my opinion though. I just feel the KF4 is not a very "user friendly" multitool like others. Yes it is slightly lighter than say the Wave, but I still think the Wave or Rebar are much better options. Many police wear gloves and being able to manipulate the tool in gloves is a must. Also getting to your blade, saw, or file one handed and quickly is very important for police in my opinion. The KF4 falls short in all these categories. Its pliers are also less capable which is not ideal. It does not offer scissors either which is something I would say is important for anyone. I'm not talking large scissors for cutting clothing, but more precise scissors. I am a strong believer that everyone should have a small pair of scissors with them at all times as they are probably my most used tool. The Rebar also falls short here. I know the weight of the KF4 is a factor, but saving 1.2oz (Rebar) - 3.0oz (Wave) is not worth the numerous downsides to the KF4.

These are just my opinions and I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Its just how I see the matter.

[captain spaulding]

If they're already carrying a gun, flash light, handcuffs, taser, radio, club, bulletproof vest, ect, I don't think something like a Wave would be all that noticeable.  At least the weight difference between that and a Juice wouldn't be, IMHO.

There are strong and tall officers that carry a medium weight multi tool (like a Wave) without a problem. But some others 'forget' to carry the multi tool, if they find it too heavy, or they run slower carrying it.

If you can shave off two ounce from ten duty items each, that weighs twenty ounce all together. That would be a drag in a sprint behind the fast bad boys.

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt a extra 3.0oz max is going to affect anyone's running speed.

[Rico-2]

I currently work for the police in England, and from my experience everyone who carries a multitool usually carries a leatherman wave, or a OHT.

Thx. Do you know if consumers can replace the tools themselves of the Wave, if they are worn out? Like the wood saw and metal file.

And being in LE, do you know if your collegues feel somewhat dragged by the heavy Wave or Leatherman OHT, if running and climbing in pursuit?

And what estimated percentage of your collegues do wear a multi tool permanently?

The Wave has great functionality and quality, so I suggest Leatherman should make it in three sizes. All three should have the Leatherman flat bit-driver in standard size.

The smallest Wave would fit small police officers, small women, small Asians, backpackers, climbers, preppers with a Bug Out Bag, business-men in suits, etc.

Especially in a Bug Out Bag (backpack) every ounce counts. And office people in a suit can be struck by disaster as well, like a hurricane, flood, civil unrest, explosion, heavy snowfall, etc. Disaster preparation and police equipment could be the leading themes in Leatherman's marketing of such a small leight-weight multi tool.

[Rico-2]

Many police wear gloves and being able to manipulate the tool in gloves is a must. Also getting to your blade, saw, or file one handed and quickly is very important for police in my opinion. The KF4 falls short in all these categories. Its pliers are also less capable which is not ideal. It does not offer scissors either which is something I would say is important for anyone. I'm not talking large scissors for cutting clothing, but more precise scissors. I am a strong believer that everyone should have a small pair of scissors with them at all times as they are probably my most used tool. The Rebar also falls short here. I know the weight of the KF4 is a factor, but saving 1.2oz (Rebar) - 3.0oz (Wave) is not worth the numerous downsides to the KF4.

I will look at the the Rebar.

The option to handle the multi tool with gloves is indeed useful, as a protection against cold, rain, chemicals, and getting wounded or infected. Those risks may be present in rescue, fires, riots, disaster help, traffic accidents, aggressive dog situations, catching animals, etc.

Is their any research done about multi tools for police work?

[captain spaulding]

I currently work for the police in England, and from my experience everyone who carries a multitool usually carries a leatherman wave, or a OHT.

Thx. Do you know if consumers can replace the tools themselves of the Wave, if they are worn out? Like the wood saw and metal file.

And being in LE, do you know if your collegues feel somewhat dragged by the heavy Wave or Leatherman OHT, if running and climbing in pursuit?

And what estimated percentage of your collegues do wear a multi tool permanently?

The Wave has great functionality and quality, so I suggest Leatherman should make it in three sizes. All three should have the Leatherman flat bit-driver in standard size.

The smallest Wave would fit small police officers, small women, small Asians, backpackers, climbers, preppers with a Bug Out Bag, business-men in suits, etc.

Especially in a Bug Out Bag (backpack) every ounce counts. And office people in a suit can be struck by disaster as well, like a hurricane, flood, civil unrest, explosion, heavy snowfall, etc. Disaster preparation and police equipment could be the leading themes in their marketing of such a small leight-weight multi tool.

 

[captain spaulding]

Many police wear gloves and being able to manipulate the tool in gloves is a must. Also getting to your blade, saw, or file one handed and quickly is very important for police in my opinion. The KF4 falls short in all these categories. Its pliers are also less capable which is not ideal. It does not offer scissors either which is something I would say is important for anyone. I'm not talking large scissors for cutting clothing, but more precise scissors. I am a strong believer that everyone should have a small pair of scissors with them at all times as they are probably my most used tool. The Rebar also falls short here. I know the weight of the KF4 is a factor, but saving 1.2oz (Rebar) - 3.0oz (Wave) is not worth the numerous downsides to the KF4.

I will look at the the Rebar.

The option to handle the multi tool with gloves is indeed useful, as a protection against cold, rain, chemicals, and getting wounded or infected. Those risks may be present in rescue, fires, riots, disaster help, traffic accidents, aggressive dog situations, catching animals, etc.

Is their any research done about multi tools for police work?

Not that I know of, but it could be out there.

[alexTOOL]

If they're already carrying a gun, flash light, handcuffs, taser, radio, club, bulletproof vest, ect, I don't think something like a Wave would be all that noticeable.  At least the weight difference between that and a Juice wouldn't be, IMHO.

There are strong and tall officers that carry a medium weight multi tool (like a Wave) without a problem. But some others 'forget' to carry the multi tool, if they find it too heavy, or they run slower carrying it.

If you can shave off two ounce from ten duty items each, that weighs twenty ounce all together. That would be a drag in a sprint behind the fast bad boys.

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt a extra 3.0oz max is going to affect anyone's running speed.

Perhaps he refers to the bumping of a big multitool...

[Reedy]

I currently work for the police in England, and from my experience everyone who carries a multitool usually carries a leatherman wave, or a OHT.

Thx. Do you know if consumers can replace the tools themselves of the Wave, if they are worn out? Like the wood saw and metal file.

And being in LE, do you know if your collegues feel somewhat dragged by the heavy Wave or Leatherman OHT, if running and climbing in pursuit?

And what estimated percentage of your collegues do wear a multi tool permanently?

The Wave has great functionality and quality, so I suggest Leatherman should make it in three sizes. All three should have the Leatherman flat bit-driver in standard size.

The smallest Wave would fit small police officers, small women, small Asians, backpackers, climbers, preppers with a Bug Out Bag, business-men in suits, etc.

Especially in a Bug Out Bag (backpack) every ounce counts. And office people in a suit can be struck by disaster as well, like a hurricane, flood, civil unrest, explosion, heavy snowfall, etc. Disaster preparation and police equipment could be the leading themes in their marketing of such a small leight-weight multi tool.

Any leatherman multitools that need repair/replacement are done through the normal warranty process, the organisation doesn't have any input on it.

Part of the uniform includes an overt molle vest, which allows holsters/pouches to be added as required. Myself and colleagues wear the tool on the vest, by simply ordering an additional torch or cs spray pouch from stores and housing it in there. Once on your vest, you don't notice it, so running etc isn't a problem.

About 80% of officers I know carry a multitool.

As for the comment regarding the different sized LM wave for different sized people, I personally don't think this required. For example we wouldn't provide lighter handcuffs or batons for smaller officers. That's just my thought anyway.

& I suppose officers in England don't routinely carry as much equipment as our colleagues in America inc. firearms, ammunition,  taser etc.

[Obi1shinobee]

Many police wear gloves and being able to manipulate the tool in gloves is a must. Also getting to your blade, saw, or file one handed and quickly is very important for police in my opinion. The KF4 falls short in all these categories. Its pliers are also less capable which is not ideal. It does not offer scissors either which is something I would say is important for anyone. I'm not talking large scissors for cutting clothing, but more precise scissors. I am a strong believer that everyone should have a small pair of scissors with them at all times as they are probably my most used tool. The Rebar also falls short here. I know the weight of the KF4 is a factor, but saving 1.2oz (Rebar) - 3.0oz (Wave) is not worth the numerous downsides to the KF4.

I will look at the the Rebar.

The option to handle the multi tool with gloves is indeed useful, as a protection against cold, rain, chemicals, and getting wounded or infected. Those risks may be present in rescue, fires, riots, disaster help, traffic accidents, aggressive dog situations, catching animals, etc.

Is their any research done about multi tools for police work?

BLAVE