new section on main site...

[DaveK]

Well, I would reserve judgement until I I had seen them for myself.

Made in U.S.A. > chinese crap

Is that from the article, or all your own work?

[rockyman500]

Well, I would reserve judgement until I I had seen them for myself.

Made in U.S.A. > chinese crap

Is that from the article, or all your own work?

that's from me...

---------------------------

It "was" a very well made tool, until sometime in the mid-2000's when Remington started having the Bird Hunter's Tool made in China.

that's from the article...

[DaveK]

Well, I would reserve judgement until I I had seen them for myself.

Made in U.S.A. > chinese crap

Is that from the article, or all your own work?

that's from me...

---------------------------

It "was" a very well made tool, until sometime in the mid-2000's when Remington started having the Bird Hunter's Tool made in China.

that's from the article...

Well done.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Gentlemen, let's keep this nice.

You can speculate on what the writer of that article was thinking, or, since it was a member of this site that wrote it, you could ask him for some clarity.

Or you can get one of each model in question, try them out, and post your own thoughts!  

Def

[rockyman500]

I've heard there are some good chinese knives...such as the Spyderco Tenacious...but I don't think I know of a good multitool made in china...

[Benner]

I've heard there are some good chinese knives...such as the Spyderco Tenacious...but I don't think I know of a good multitool made in china...

The X-tract is just one example.

[DaveK]

Gentlemen, let's keep this nice.

Yes - sorry Def, you are right.

For the record, I have no issue whatsoever with an opinion or even a stated fact that a Chinese tool is inferior quality to it's US counterpart, but the generalisation that anything from China is crap, is quite different IMO. It happens a lot on here, and (again IMO) does no favours to the people who post such things. I can't imagine what a Chinese viewer of this site might think sometimes.

[Leatherman123]

What about the Gerber Flik or the Diesel?

[Poncho65]

Just a question is the Bear Bird Hunter tool still made in Alabama or are both it and the Remington version's made in China now Just curious more than anything

[Poncho65]

I agree that there are some good stuff that's China made

I am surprised sometimes at stuff I buy and then look at it and it's made in China

[Grant Lamontagne]

Dave is absolutely right- while much of the stuff that comes from China is indeed monkey poo, not all of it is, as seen by all the examples mentioned.  Painting them all with the same brush is indeed harmful, not only to China and Chinese made products, but also to our own community, as we really should be objective about tools.  As the largest assembly of multitool collectors and users, lots of people find this forum and read our thoughts and comments, and I hate to lead the masses astray and make them thing we are brand snobs.

If a tool is good, and it does the job you need to do, use it.

Def

[Benner]

Dave is absolutely right- while much of the stuff that comes from China is indeed monkey poo, not all of it is, as seen by all the examples mentioned.  Painting them all with the same brush is indeed harmful, not only to China and Chinese made products, but also to our own community, as we really should be objective about tools.  As the largest assembly of multitool collectors and users, lots of people find this forum and read our thoughts and comments, and I hate to lead the masses astray and make them thing we are brand snobs.

If a tool is good, and it does the job you need to do, use it.

Def

Well bloody said!    And a good point raised there Dave.

[Leatherman123]

Yeah, that sums it up nicely.. I don't care where a product's made, as long as it's of good quality.. Fenix lights are a prime example. Sure, they're made overseas; but they're just as good if not better than a Surefire which are all very expensive..

[J-sews]

As a person who makes his living in manufacturing, I have deep feelings about this topic.

In a nutshell, I think both Dave and Rockyman are right.

Just because something is made by Chinese people doesn't mean it is automatically crap. But indeed Made In China often means just that. Retailers and marketing companies don't move their factories to China because they are looking to improve quality. They move them because they are wanting higher profit margins, or because they are forced to lower production costs in order to compete with similar products that are already being made in China.

Are the Chinese capable of making top-quality products? Absolutely!! But top quality is not usually what the retailers are asking them for. Usually the demand is for low-cost first, quality a distant second. Kudos to companies like Buck and CRKT for requiring Chinese made products bearing their names to be well made.

So how do North American and European manufacturers even compete? I sometimes wonder. Not on price certainly. They either need to have super high volume production to keep costs low (like Vic or Wenger) or offer a higher quality product that will hopefully appeal to discriminating buyers willing to pay extra for it. (Leatherman, SOG, SureFire, etc)

The real problem I see for American manufacturers is that the Chinese keep getting better. As the level of quality they are capable of keeps improving, so must the rest of the world keep getting better in order to stay ahead and maintain their advantage. As consumers, we all benefit from this.

[Roadie]

I was reading my Professional Engineer magazine today (no idea how i got subscribed to it but i'm not complaining ) and it was saying British cast metal firms are actually starting to win work back from chinese competitors due to a general higher quality of work and the ease of communication and correction of ideas/parts. An interesting article on how values have changed recently

[DaveK]

Bob - a great post and clearly straight from the heart - I can't argue with any of the points in there, but there's one thing to be added I think.

There is another reason why manufacturers will move production to China (or it could be Taiwan, India or any of a bunch of developing economies) beyond those you mentioned, and that is simply to stay in business.

I was made redundant just before Christmas, and my old job is now done by a guy in Bangalore who works for about a quarter of the pay that I did. So it's a concept I'm familiar with, and it's a choice my company had to make. It's a phenomenon that we're probably more used to in Britain, as it's been going on since the 2nd World War, whilst the US just became stronger and stronger. Things are different now and they aren't going to gp back to the way they were as consumers expect better value for money.

As I said before, I can fully appreciate that some stuff that comes from China is crap, but rockyman's statement that "Made in U.S.A. > chinese crap" is itself, crap.

I was reading my Professional Engineer magazine today (no idea how i got subscribed to it but i'm not complaining ) and it was saying British cast metal firms are actually starting to win work back from chinese competitors due to a general higher quality of work and the ease of communication and correction of ideas/parts. An interesting article on how values have changed recently

Interesting, but I can't imagine that it will be more than just niche - higher end stuff. Let's face it, it will cost a ton compared to overseas production.

[J-sews]

True enough Dave.

Actually, there's sort of a cruel irony when it comes to the US knifemaking industry. Back in the 1800's the undisputed capital of knife making in the world was Sheffield England. All the best knives came from there. (Indeed, even all the not-so-best knives came from there!) Joseph Rodgers, Ibberson, Wostenholm, John Watt and others controlled over 90% of worlds fine cutlery industry. But then those bloody Americans with their "cheap" production line techniques came along and undercut the fine hand-made wares of the Sheffield master cutlers. Companies like Schrade and Camillus could crank out knives far cheaper than the old British firms. By WWII the heyday of Sheffield knifemaking had ended. I can just imagine the talk back then, of "crap" American knives! But of course that didn't change anything did it?

Nowadays the shoe is on the other foot    

[american lockpicker]

I thought the best knives were made in Germany?

[J-sews]

I thought the best knives were made in Germany?

The decline of Sheffield knifemaking is generally attributed to their higher cost of labor as compared to the Americans.

[DaveK]

Tis true, and was an example I had in mind when typing my last reply. In fact, that "cheap US crap" line applied to many industries that we just don't have any more in the UK.

I like to think it isn't that simple, and I see huge similarities with the current rise of Chinese manufacturing. At the same time I see no problem with people supporting their own national businesses (and work forces). I now have a policy of only buying cars that are built in Britain for example. There are no British car manufacturers left, but I can at least stick to cars made on English soil (Landrover, Jaguar who are owned by Ford for example), but dismissing anything imported as crap isn't really very fair, as it's a huge generalisation IMO.

I thought the best knives were made in Germany?

The decline of Sheffield knifemaking is generally attributed to their higher cost of labor as compared to the Americans.

A big factor in our steel industry was the coal running out! We have to import a lot of our coal now, which inflated the cost, so people buy cheaper imported steels. A double whammy really, rising costs and more competition, in this case, from the US.

[J-sews]

Off topic: did the coal really run out, or was it just Thatcher shutting down the mines?

[DaveK]

Off topic: did the coal really run out, or was it just Thatcher shutting down the mines?

Lol. Perhaps the singly most divisive issue in modern British politics that. My belief (and I think it's fairly informed) is that the mines had to close because the coal that was cost effective to mine ran out. My house is built on an old mine site that closed in the early 1990s. Just down the road, there's a museum that was set up by miners who lost their job when that pit closed. They do a mine tour and it's really a great attraction they have there, very interesting. That pit, was empty, and although the mine tour guides were on strike at the time and were involved in the riots etc, they will admit now, that it wasn't a viable business.

I truly believe that beneath all the politics, it was a pretty simple matter, and we could get coal at the time more cheaply from Japan than we could from out own mines. Not so now of course, as the closure of our last mines allowed the countries we import from to name their price.

If we had coal - someone would be digging it up!

[J-sews]

Off topic: did the coal really run out, or was it just Thatcher shutting down the mines?

Lol. Perhaps the singly most divisive issue in modern British politics that. My belief (and I think it's fairly informed) is that the mines had to close because the coal that was cost effective to mine ran out. My house is built on an old mine site that closed in the early 1990s. Just down the road, there's a museum that was set up by miners who lost their job when that pit closed. They do a mine tour and it's really a great attraction they have there, very interesting. That pit, was empty, and although the mine tour guides were on strike at the time and were involved in the riots etc, they will admit now, that it wasn't a viable business.

I truly believe that beneath all the politics, it was a pretty simple matter, and we could get coal at the time more cheaply from Japan than we could from out own mines. Not so now of course, as the closure of our last mines allowed the countries we import from to name their price.

If we had coal - someone would be digging it up!

Thanks for the explanation, that was something I've always wondered about.

[DaveK]

That's just my take on it. The issue is more divisive than religion here in Derbyshire and other traditional mining communities!

[I'm Still Bison]

Coal is a hot button issue in my part of the country,living in the coalfields of Southeastern Ohio.A lot of the mines have been played out,and most of the rest were closed because of clean air regulations.Coal in this part of the country has a high sulfur content.

[jzmtl]

There are industrial equipment from China that's best in the business, but of course at that level it's no cheaper than the competition.

As a person who makes his living in manufacturing, I have deep feelings about this topic.

...


So how do North American and European manufacturers even compete? I sometimes wonder. Not on price certainly. They either need to have super high volume production to keep costs low (like Vic or Wenger) or offer a higher quality product that will hopefully appeal to discriminating buyers willing to pay extra for it. (Leatherman, SOG, SureFire, etc)

So bob, we know you are a machinist, but what the heck do you make anyway?

Also Surefire get most sale from government/military/police contracts, I really don't think they give a damn about civilian market.

[MultiMat]

Not wanting to throw flammible fluid on the fire , but the 2 MT's I own that have serrious QUALITY control issues were made in the USA. My Super Bear Jaws locks only partially lock on 1/2 the tools , I am ok with that & I really like the MT. The other is the Leatherman TTi Charge , 2 of the Liner Locks do not engage fully (they only got it right on half the locks  ) & the very well commented issue with the rubbing Charge file occurs on my one. I could fix the liner locks with a bit of sanding , but the TTi is Leatherman's flagship tool why do they not fix these basic & COMMON QC problems.
It would be great Def if you could get some kind of response from Leatherman as to why these issues have not been addressed at the factory?

[jzmtl]

Not wanting to throw flammible fluid on the fire , but the 2 MT's I own that have serrious QUALITY control issues were made in the USA. My Super Bear Jaws locks only partially lock on 1/2 the tools , I am ok with that & I really like the MT. The other is the Leatherman TTi Charge , 2 of the Liner Locks do not engage fully (they only got it right on half the locks  ) & the very well commented issue with the rubbing Charge file occurs on my one. I could fix the liner locks with a bit of sanding , but the TTi is Leatherman's flagship tool why do they not fix these basic & COMMON QC problems.
It would be great Def if you could get some kind of response from Leatherman as to why these issues have not been addressed at the factory?

What do you mean by liner lock not engaging fully? If the lock doesn't slide all the way to contact screw, that's actually the correct way for liner lock to engage.

[MultiMat]

Not wanting to throw flammible fluid on the fire , but the 2 MT's I own that have serrious QUALITY control issues were made in the USA. My Super Bear Jaws locks only partially lock on 1/2 the tools , I am ok with that & I really like the MT. The other is the Leatherman TTi Charge , 2 of the Liner Locks do not engage fully (they only got it right on half the locks  ) & the very well commented issue with the rubbing Charge file occurs on my one. I could fix the liner locks with a bit of sanding , but the TTi is Leatherman's flagship tool why do they not fix these basic & COMMON QC problems.
It would be great Def if you could get some kind of response from Leatherman as to why these issues have not been addressed at the factory?

What do you mean by liner lock not engaging fully? If the lock doesn't slide all the way to contact screw, that's actually the correct way for liner lock to engage.

The liner lock does not slid completely across the blade's lock. I hope the pics I took awhile back show what I mean.I think a little sanding of the blade's end lock would allow the liner lock slide across & lock more securely .
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/multimat426/Navitool%20TTi/S6302271.jpg[/img]]
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/multimat426/Navitool%20TTi/S6302270.jpg[/img]]

[jzmtl]

That's perfectly fine, and is how the liner lock should work to allow room for wear.

To test the pic, do what STR showed in the pic, if it doesn't fold it's safe to use.