Announcement to make:

[bren10man]

This message is for those in the UK: if you want a rare SAK from me if I find one in Seoul, (i.e. like the First Mate find), and you live in the U.K., sorry, can't help you.

Reason: your government has banned Dr. Michael Savage, a U.S. radio talk show host I listen to daily, from intering the U.K. for "hate speech".   

I have listened to Michael Savage for years.  He does not spew "hate speech".  He should not be lumped into the same fold as radical Islamic terrorists that kill, the KKK, Nazi skinheads from Germany or Russia.   

I thought that the U.K. had freedom of speech?  I thought that the U.K. was along the lines of Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher, etc.?   

I guess times have changed.  Sad too, because I am fond of the British Army...and fought with them in Iraq.

As such, I have decided to heed Michael Savage's call for a boycott of the U.K.: visits, import of goods, etc.  Until your government sends him an apology, and rescends this stupid order, I am boycotting the U.K.   

For more information, go to www.michaelsavage.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IIzNmLDvb8&feature=related

Thank you (regretably).

[DaveK]

I'm not really sure what kind of response you want to this, but I can't see how boycotting your fellow forum members can possibly be relevant.

[bren10man]

I'm not really sure what kind of response you want to this, but I can't see how boycotting your fellow forum members can possibly be relevant.

Simple: read the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution.  Read the Magna Carta...it is relevant.  Tell your PM, your Home Secretary, your representatives in Parliament that "enough is enough". 

If enough people would stand up and say "enough is enough...you represent US and serve OUR will, or get voted out of office.." it can make a difference.

I do not want my country to go the way of the gutter (however, that is road we are going with all these bailouts, not securing the border, etc).  I do not want the U.K. to either.  Send your reps in Parliament to have Michael Savage removed from the "ban" list. 

[ducktapehero]

I still don't see how not sending knives to friends in the UK is a threat to your boycott. Our own gov't does stupid crap all the time, I certainly wouldn't want some people on here to refuse to be friendly to me because of the actions of our own out of control government.

[BIG-TARGET]

Don't boycott the UK!!!  Think of shipping SAKs to UK as equipment smuggling for freedom fighters 

It's merely a question of symantics

[ufox9al]

A couple of points:
1) I don't think that Swiss Forum is the place for political activism. The mods should move this thread to an appropriate forum, if one can be found on MT.org.
2) On the content of your actual post, by choosing to not send SAKs to your fellow MT.org members in the UK, you may be assiting UK government in their clamp-down on knives (eBay restrictions, etc.), which is quire ironic.

[bren10man]

I will lift my boycott IF my British mates over there send me a copy of their letter to the Parliament, PM, etc. telling them to lift the ban on Michael Savage.

So, my fellow Brits: who are you going to be: Neville "Peace in our time!!" Chamberlain (waving the "scrap of paper" Hitler signed handing over Czechoslovakia in 1938, appeasment that led to WW2) or are you going to be Winston Churchill ("We will fight on the beaches.  We will fight in the hills.  We will fight in the streets.  We will never surrender!!") and Margaret Thatcher (who is considered one of the Big 3 leaders -Reagan and Pope John Paul II- who defeated the Iron Curtain of the Soviet Union)?  The choice is yours, while you still HAVE a choice.....

We have serious issues in the USA....we are seeing what is going on over there in Europe.  God help us all!!!  Our leaders SUX!!!

[I'm Still Bison]

 I don't like locking down threads,and especially when someone feels like their using what we in the US believe to be out First Amendment rights. I am asking everybody to stop,count to 10,give everything a thought before saying anything. So PLEASE, I ask all of you consider and choose your words wisely.And yes,your Moderators are aware of this topic.

[Zack]

Friendships should outway politics no matter how extreme.  This is a place where we can talk about SAKS and MTs and is a friendly environment.  I personally don't care what the UK government decides to do, as I don't live there.  I know they have some strange knife laws and I feel for my comrades who live there, but I can't do anything about thier government.  I also don't believe a few letters from MT.org is going to change England's political machine.  I'm sorry your favorite radio host can't get into the UK, but I don't believe that you not sending SAKS to your friends is making that situation any better.

[bren10man]

A couple of points:
1) I don't think that Swiss Forum is the place for political activism. The mods should move this thread to an appropriate forum, if one can be found on MT.org.
2) On the content of your actual post, by choosing to not send SAKs to your fellow MT.org members in the UK, you may be assiting UK government in their clamp-down on knives (eBay restrictions, etc.), which is quire ironic.

Why, then, tell me, how in the heck did all these bans happen in the UK?  Why is it that the land of the Magna Carta, where the U.S. Constitution has roots, has Britain banned: pistols, rifles for the most part, shotguns simple pocket knives (sheesh!!!), etc.?  Why are their laws in the U.K. making it illegal to protect yourself?  What or why was apathy allowed to get this low?  

See, it DOES affect folks on this board......I read all the time about the woes of trying to even carry a simple SAK in parts of the UK.....I pray that B.H.O. does not ban guns in the USA...he wants to.  Yet, he has 80 million+ legal gun owners, with 4+ million in the NRA (I am in the NRA as well) standing in his way (ask Bill Klinton what happened in the fall of 1994 after his "assault weapon ban" went into effect).

That is why after hearing Michael Savage's show earlier today, I call for this.  I want my UK brothers to act...to save their country!!!!

[Grant Lamontagne]

One- Politics have no place on this forum.  It makes enemies out of friends, and nothing can ever be resolved, which is why various countries can never get along in the first place.

Two- The US Constitution and Bill of Rights really has no sway over the rest of the world.  It is only in the US, so I really don't see how it is supposed to affect the UK members.

Three- You can listen to any show you want online, without interference, so on the off chance that any UK members actually know who this guy is, I doubt their world will change much.

Four- You are free to make your own choices in life, but this is tantamount to imposing your will on other, innocent people, who if you approached it less radically, would probably have agreed with you.

Five- Free speech is an option I chose to exercise on my forum.  Unlike public places in the US (where, by the way I am not) the Constitution does not apply to me or this forum, and I can lock or remove discussions when/where I choose.  And, I guarantee that this is a great way to get a thread locked.

Still, I am leaving this open for now, as I think we are all smarter than this, and acted in moments of anger and disgust at the actions of idiots not affiliated or agreed with on this forum and I don't think anyone should be held accountable as a result.  No government is perfect, and I'll admit some are better than others (although I won't say who because there's no point in fighting over that, and I'm not qualified to judge anyway) but there is nothing constructive about arguing about that crap here.

Please don't make me (or another mod) lock this thread or take other action.

Def

[Buzzbait]

All of this over a radio talk show host? Geez. The UK people on this board are people that you converse with every day. How many times have you talked to this Savage fellow?

[Zack]

After reading more about Michael Wiener (Savage) I cannot supprt his ban on the UK.  Anyone who doesn't believe that Autism is a true disease and is a disease du jour has some screws loose.  That hits too close to home for me because I have a family member who is autistic and my wife works with autistic kids.  There is simply too many medical journal articles out there talking about autism to simply say 99% of the time it is a spoiled brat-his words not mine.

[bren10man]

One- Politics have no place on this forum.  It makes enemies out of friends, and nothing can ever be resolved, which is why various countries can never get along in the first place.


Two- The US Constitution and Bill of Rights really has no sway over the rest of the world.  It is only in the US, so I really don't see how it is supposed to affect the UK members.

- I thought the UK, and most western civilzations for that matter, had freedom of speech?  Isn't that what the U.S., U.K., Canada, and the other allies fought for in WW2??

Three- You can listen to any show you want online, without interference, so on the off chance that any UK members actually know who this guy is, I doubt their world will change much.

Hence, why I posted his website where they can get information.....about who he is and what he is not.

Four- You are free to make your own choices in life, but this is tantamount to imposing your will on other, innocent people, who if you approached it less radically, would probably have agreed with you.

I will keep my reply to that to myself.

Five- Free speech is an option I chose to exercise on my forum.  Unlike public places in the US (where, by the way I am not) the Constitution does not apply to me or this forum, and I can lock or remove discussions when/where I choose.  And, I guarantee that this is a great way to get a thread locked.

Free speech is a GOD GIVEN right, as long as it is not vile, vulgar, inflammatory of hate or terroristic in nature.  Again, I have more to say on this one thing alone, but will keep it to myself.  If this is your forum, and you are the owner...roger, wilco.

Still, I am leaving this open for now, as I think we are all smarter than this, and acted in moments of anger and disgust at the actions of idiots not affiliated or agreed with on this forum and I don't think anyone should be held accountable as a result.  No government is perfect, and I'll admit some are better than others (although I won't say who because there's no point in fighting over that, and I'm not qualified to judge anyway) but there is nothing constructive about arguing about that crap here.



Please don't make me (or another mod) lock this thread or take other action.

Again, not attacking anyone.....However, I am disgusted by what is going on....and hoping some of the UK people can chime in on what IS going on...PM me if necessary.

Def

[bren10man]

After reading more about Michael Wiener (Savage) I cannot supprt his ban on the UK.  Anyone who doesn't believe that Autism is a true disease and is a disease du jour has some screws loose.  That hits too close to home for me because I have a family member who is autistic and my wife works with autistic kids.  There is simply too many medical journal articles out there talking about autism to simply say 99% of the time it is a spoiled brat-his words not mine.

Subtract the Autism thing (a thing I disagree with him about....then again, he IS a scientist), and look at his other things.....

OK...I am letting this dog lie where it is........If the MOD here wants no politico talk, then so be it.  However, I STILL want to hear about the UK knife laws, gun laws, and what in the heck is going on over there.  I want to know which way the winds are blowing, before they fully come over here.  OUT.

[Zack]

Free speech is a GOD GIVEN right, as long as it is not vile, vulgar, inflammatory of hate or terroristic in nature.  Again, I have more to say on this one thing alone, but will keep it to myself.  If this is your forum, and you are the owner...roger, wilco.


The inflmmatory is what I have a problem with.  He is inflmmatory to illegals, people with disabilities, people with different political views from himself...

[Grant Lamontagne]

Knife laws and gun laws always were and always will be a valid topic for discussion here.  I think given the chance to discuss this over a pitcher (or ten, which is where IMO political discussions belong, if even there) we would have a great and long debate.  I would like to point out that my issue here is NOT your political beliefs as they more or less agree with my own, and which I also believe coincide with many members here.

The issue is with your method, not with your ideals.  Right idea, wrong way to go about it.  PM me if you want to discuss it in more detail, or I can be reached at the following IM addresses:

Yahoo: Multitooldotorg
MSN: Realdef@hotmail.com
GTalk: grant.lamontagne@gmail.com

I can also occasionally be reached on Skype as Realdef.

Def

[Nikos]

MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... There. All happy and tranquil now.

[bren10man]

MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... There. All happy and tranquil now.

   Happy place, yes.........

Already, this has started some lifely PM's I might add..........

[I'm Still Bison]

MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... MT.org is a happy place... There. All happy and tranquil now.

   Happy place, yes.........

Already, this has started some lifely PM's I might add..........

Most likely ,ordinary folks,just like you and I taking a stand for what they believe in

[bren10man]

Knife laws and gun laws always were and always will be a valid topic for discussion here.  I think given the chance to discuss this over a pitcher (or ten, which is where IMO political discussions belong, if even there) we would have a great and long debate.  I would like to point out that my issue here is NOT your political beliefs as they more or less agree with my own, and which I also believe coincide with many members here.

The issue is with your method, not with your ideals.  Right idea, wrong way to go about it.  Def

OK, then.....here is a pitcher of beer 

One of the Soldiers I work with (a Staff Sergeant, to be exact) discussed this earlier tonight.  See, he is from Ireland, and is worried sick about his homeland and what is going on in the UK.....

So, what, and please, UK brothers chime in, should be done about the 1. knife laws in the UK  2. gun laws in the UK which have practically banned everything, even their Olympic athletes from training at home, that goes BOOM!!  If I am wrong, correct me on this.  3. What can we do to HELP our UK brothers get started in standing up to what is going on? 

We in the US are sick of being over taxed (esp. the bailouts), and worried about how far the new .gov will go in some proposed laws....and had the "tea parties" last month.  Of couse, the MSM laughed it off, some vulgar at that (PM me and I will tell you or send you the you tube link of what Anderson Cooper of CNN stated about the "tea parties").  BTW: the "tea parties" get their name from the 1773 Boston Tea Party protest of taxes...the colonists dumped East India Company tea off the ships into Boston Harbor, hence the nickname Boston Tea Party.

[nuphoria]

The US government has broken the human rights bill and the amendments including the freedom of speech so many times it's silly. You find me a country which doesn't break the rules to the detriment of its people and I'll condone your boycott.

The UK is not perfect by a long shot, nor will it ever be. The reason why we have such extreme laws regarding people stirring up hatred is because we have been under terrorist attacks of one form or another for a very long time - long before 9/11. We have been trying to cope with it by trial and error but something we will not tolerate is people broadcasting hatred of any kind. I for one support that choice and don't intend to boycott my US pals in any way because of their governments faults.

Happy place.... happy place 

[bren10man]

The US government has broken the human rights bill and the amendments including the freedom of speech so many times it's silly. You find me a country which doesn't break the rules to the detriment of its people and I'll condone your boycott.

The UK is not perfect by a long shot, nor will it ever be. The reason why we have such extreme laws regarding people stirring up hatred is because we have been under terrorist attacks of one form or another for a very long time - long before 9/11. We have been trying to cope with it by trial and error but something we will not tolerate is people broadcasting hatred of any kind. I for one support that choice and don't intend to boycott my US pals in any way because of their governments faults.

Happy place.... happy place 

Please PM me different examples of the different things you mentioned above......

[american lockpicker]

I'm not going to stop buying things from the UK.

[bren10man]

Hmmm....after reading Sky News and the comments on this story, it appears the current UK .gov may be getting the boot.  Not too many kind words stated.

Maybe I won't have to do a "boycott" afterall ( believe me, I do NOT want to do it).

For you folks in the UK, tell me via PM what is up with your current government.  It does not sound very popular or something to that effect.

[Nikos]

Is there such a thing as a popular government?

[Mike 56]

I have deep affection for the people of Great Britain i feel like they are a extended family regardless of what there political policies may be or not be (it is there country). Great Britain has proven it self to be a good friend to the US. I feel that we should support them any way we can. I can not see how buying tools for friends can be political.
Mike

[Abstraction]

*considers carefully*

First of all, as a single case I disagree with his ban, as while i do not agree with a lot of this guys point's I don't think that in this case his offence- seemingly offending the liberal politicians- should be a reason for being considered a threat, and on top of that it blurs the lines and cheapens efforts to get rid of people who really are a threat to our countries peace.

That said the laws being used to keep him out of Britain are something which are needed, as without going into details, time and time again we have seen people mock the freedom we expect by openly standing up and promoting hatred against the British and taunting us for the fact they cannot be removed as they quote 'freedom of speech.'

It's that reason that I cannot criticise our government on the grounds that it does not respect freedom of speech because with the way that modern media works we cannot allow just anyone to enter the country and stir up hornets nest. We have been struggling to deal with the fallout from various hate preachers for years now and are only just getting rid of some of the people who are indirectly responsibly for numerous atrocities. 

This is the problem though - legally we need to be very black and white about who we ban, because otherwise someone who genuinely is a threat can turn up to the European court of human rights (blame them if you like ) and say (in simplistic terms): 'hang on, I've been banned from the UK for preaching racism, but Michael Savage is allowed to come and go, that's discrimination and breaches my human rights.'  The ban will then be overturned by Europe, he's allowed back in and we end up looking even weaker than before.  This isn't our governments fault, they have to be entirely black and white about who they apply this new law to, as otherwise they can be accused of discrimination and undermined by laws which are set down by Europe.

If the efforts to get rid of these genuine threats means that there has to be some unfortunate casualties from people who are lumped in the same category then that is a shame, but he is not blameless in this and while he may not be violent in his propaganda, his promotion of racism, homophobia and other controversial statements means he falls in line with the criteria set out, which 'legally' have to be black and white in order for them to work without those who really need to go being handed loopholes to get back in. 

I'd like to add some more points but i have to get going to work in a bit, hopefully this topic can stay on track as what could have been an inflammatory point seems to have evolved into a decent discussion

[Mike]

Imagine if we all did this because we had grievances with our own governments or someone else's government? I mean, not everyone agrees with everything their own government does, and not everyone agrees with things other governments do. So does that mean we penalize each other as individuals, is that what this is about? Trying to coerce or badger others into what ...... going on a letter writing campaign because they have a grievance with someone else's government or their own?

My opinion is this, if you want people to do something on  your behalf, why not just ask them to? Wouldn't that be a little more civil and effective than antagonizing people to the point where your message is lost and you make yourself look rather silly? And if they do, that's great ..... and if they don't, that's ok too?

Mike

[Benner]

Obviously living in the UK I have many strong feelings towards what has been brought up here today, but in a thread that could have resulted in me being a bit annoyed and saddened I am actually extremely happy.  The support shown by all of the members here is a really nice thing to see and I personally would like to thank all of you for your comments.