Special Knives: 154cm, S30V and beyond...

[Raukodur]

Sounds good to have a multitool with a 'special' steel knife, but for the lay people here. what exactly do these numbers mean?

How can you quantify what these mean?

Also, I wonder what the 'next' version of steel will be. I wonder if LM will ever get to using titanium knives.

And thats another question, how does the 154cm / S30V steel compare to other metals, such as titanium? What other metals make really good knives, and what advantages do they have over steel?

[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't believe the numbers really correspond to anything in particular, at least not to any kind of standard.  Not to the extent where you could compare one steel to another using the name.  Unless, the steel manufacturer is making several versions, such as AUS 4, AUS 6 and AUS 8 or ATS-34 and ATS-55.  In that case, the higher number usually denotes an improvement in the steel, but it's really hard to know what that is other than what the manufacturer says about it.

In fact, beyond the stamp, there really isn't any way to know what steel is used.  At least not without a full metalurgical lab at your disposal.

All in all, the steel race has gotten pretty pathetic overall.  Many knife companies are using their own proprietary steels, which are virtually the same steels being used by other companies, but come from different suppliers and have different names.

Lastly, steel is only one component of the bottom line of cutting.  Edge grind, blade shape, materials cut, personal sharpening habits, blade thickness and so on are all important factors in how well a blade performs. 

A Ferarri is a fantastic, precision machine, but if you put 35" Mickey Thompsons on it and try to romp through the woods, well you won't get very far!

Def

[I'm Still Bison]

 This has been covered on virtually every forum,and will be until the end of time.I feel some folks get so wrapped up in the wunderstahl du jour, that they lose sight of the simple fact that no recipe will ever be a substitute for geometry,heat treatment,and the blade user's own ability to keep a blade sharp trumps all. Some years back ATS-34 was regarded as being the king of steels,and now in some corners it's thought of as being nearly pre-historic.

[Raukodur]

Unfortunately I think my post has been misunderstood.

Does anyone know of how S30V is better than 154CM, and how 154CM is better than 'normal' steel?

How do other metals compare to steel for making knives (e.g. titanium)? What are their disadvantages / advantages?

I suppose another interesting question regarding knives is their shape. I really dislike the shape of the knives victorinox uses, it is perhaps the major reason I wouldnt buy a vic multitool. In contrast to this, I really like the shape of the leatherman multitool knife. What advantages are grnated to a knife by the different shapes we see? What would be the 'perfect' knife shape, if there is a such a thing?

[Grant Lamontagne]

The various steels are really more of a feature to increase sales and sound more advanced.  Almost every knife from a reputable manufacturer nowadays will be more than adequate for any uses you may have.  However, the latest cool sounding steel sells more knives than anything else because everyone wants the newest and greatest. 

Shape is very important- the thinner the blade, the less drag there is when cutting something.  This is why SAKs, with their "inferior" steel manage to cut better than many tactical knives with wonder steels.  Tactical knife blades (and multitool blades for the most part) tend to be quite thick and therefore don't cut as smoothly, but then can be pounded into things without damage. 

As for the perfect style of blade, well that is very subjective, and all depends on who you are and what you want to do.  The clip point reduces weight at the tip of the blade to make for a faster fighting knife, a tanto point is the best for stabbing through armor and a sheepsfoot keeps you from killing the person you are trying to save from a car wreck. 

Steel is cheaper than titanium and has different properties.  Knifemakers use titanium in scales to keep the price up, but don't use it as often in blades because it is harder to work, and there really are no fancy alloys they can put together to stay ahead of everyone else.  Titanium also has no magnetic signature which makes it great for EOD work, but has also fallen into a fair amount of disfavor since 9/11 because you can walk through a metal detector with it.  And, titanium is rust free and corrosion resistant, and can be anodized in many pretty colors.  Of course, most steels nowadays are also rust and corrosion resistant, so that's kind of a moot point now too.

Tool steels are also pretty common.  These are usually called by simpler terms like 01 or D2, and aren't usually as corrosion and rust resistant, but they do tend to be harder.  Of course, harder steel is more expensive because it costs the makers more time to cut, grind and sharpen, not to mention eating up more gringing wheels and sanding belts.  They are also kind of "retro" for the folks that like to get back to basics.  Just like the PT Cruiser...

Ceramic blades were also big for a while.  They out cut almost everything else, but had no lateral flexion or shock resistance.  You could actually whittle other knives with it, but if you dropped it you were out a good $200.  Plus, the only thing that would sharpen it was a diamond.

About the only numbers that really mean anything in a knife, if you want to check something, is the Rockwell Hardness, which is a measurement of how far a diamond point can be pushed into the steel with a specified amount of pressure.  Most knives are considered best at RC 58-60- any softer and they won't hold an edge as well, and any harder and the blade becomes brittle.  Of course, there are variations on this.  Titanium reacts differently, as do CPM (Carbon power Mettalurgy) and dentritic steels, but those are a different story all together.

I personally couldn't tell you if s30v was better than 154CM, but I can tell you that my SAKs and multis get along just fine without them.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy a multi with a better grade of steel, but only if I was interested in the tool.  The fancy steel wouldn't sway me one way or the other.  The price of it might, but that's about as much as I would care!

The old standard used to be that in order for a steel to be considered stainless, it had to have a minimum of 13% chromium.  Unfortunately, chromium is soft, and so the stainless blades wouldn't take or hold the same kind of edge as the carbon steel blades.  Carbon steel would take a great edge, but had to be sharpened at steeper angles because the edge was more brittle, plus they had to be coated with epoxy or anodized otherwise they'd rust quickly.  Leather sheaths were also bad for these knives because the leather would trap the moisture inside and eat away at the knife when it wasn't in use.  Most of the steels that you get currently won't have these problems- even the cheaper (but reputable) knives like CRKT and SAKs are using steels that are both stain resistant and quite reasonable for edge holding. 

Everything is a trade off, but to be honest, I sincerely believe that if you were to have ten of the exact same knife made in ten different kinds of steel, you likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between most of them.  Until you looked at the stamp and the price tags that is.

Def

[Grant Lamontagne]

It's kind of funny that this kind of discussion will usually degenerate into name calling and bad blood on a knufe forum, but when done in a tool forum it gets largely ignored... and the few folks that actually say something point out that really no steels are significantly different.

Kinda funny...

If we have any different opinions out there, feel free to let them fly.  I don't mind disagreement!

Def

[Anthony]

The fancy steel wouldn't sway me one way or the other. 

Agreed.

Stainless for standard cutting blades, and carbon steel for outdoors/hard use blades work fine.  Using either of both with a decent edge, you shoulden't look down at it and say "Damn, if only this knife was S30V Boron electroplated, THEN I'd be able to get the job done!"


As for diffrent responses between knife forums and multi tool forums...I see it as people who talk about multitools are more like engineers and people who talk about knives are more like artists...two diffrent frames of mind.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't know if I would say they are necessarily artistic- perhaps the folks that buy the $10,000 + knives seen in BLADE magazines could be patrons of art, but the $500 tactical crowd are often paranoid mall ninjas who need to compensate with a big knife in the latest steel!

I apologize if that's offensive to some.  It really is just my silly opinion, but don't worry, the silly mall ninja types aren't the kind to frequesnt multitool forums, so if you are reading this then it probably doesn't apply to you!

Def

[J-sews]

I've been reading along on this thread, (not contributing, because I don't know a damn thing about the subject matter!) but I wonder if Raukodur is getting the answers he is looking for?  I'm guessing that the guy with the new Leatherman TTi wants to know what exactly is supposed to be "better" about the S30V knife blade it comes equipped with. Sure, maybe the average user will not be able to tell the difference between S30V steel on the TTI and 420 stainless on the Wave, but what are the differences supposed to be?

I've heard that S30V is very tough, and holds a razor edge better than other knife steels. On the downside, I've also heard that it is difficult to sharpen back up when it finally does become dull.

Any truth to these rumors?

[damota]

I've heard that S30V is very tough, and holds a razor edge better than other knife steels. On the downside, I've also heard that it is difficult to sharpen back up when it finally does become dull.

That is the general difference. The harder steel can also be more prone to break if mistreat (like using it as a pry bar on paint tins).
The chart in A G Russels sites show the composition most steels used in knives -

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/steel_guide/index.html

There is also a decent read up on the different steels used in knives -

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/articles/steel.html

Hope this helps.

Dave

[I'm Still Bison]

I'll be called a Luddite,and have bricks thrown at me..but I'd be happy if they'd "downgraded" to 440-C. To me it's a good enough blade steel,and brought back to a good edge quickly.Many multi users seem to carry a dedicated folder with one of the other steels.

[damota]

I'll be called a Luddite,and have bricks thrown at me..but I'd be happy if they'd "downgraded" to 440-C. To me it's a good enough blade steel,and brought back to a good edge quickly.Many multi users seem to carry a dedicated folder with one of the other steels.

I agree with you on that, although I think the the jaws need the extra strength the blades are more easily looked after and could stand up to any abuse if made out of 440c in a tool like a multi. Vic's main asset is the steel they use that can stand up to abuse and still get a decent edge back on by anyone. If you need a blade that keeps its edge, buy a stand alone knife but do not complain if it snaps because you tried to open a tin of paint with it, unless it has the dimension that are needed. At least 4mm+ stock for the blade if not thicker, depending on the length. A multis blade of 2.5" - 3" made out of 2.5mm - 3mm would not stand a chance. Another reason although hard steels keep their edge they do loose them in time and you need to learn how to keep them sharp, 6 strokes in a crock stick IMO is not enough. while on the subject handles that fex under presure will also stand up to more abuse than those that are rigid and can be flexed back if the worst thing happens.



Dave

[Raukodur]

Hmm, wonder if there will ever be a tool produced (or if there is one already) which has mulitple knife blades on it made of different materials, to be used for different tasks.

So maybe one made of basic steel for all your everyday common tasks.
Maybe a ceramic one for ones where you need a really sharp knife
Maybe a titanium one for tasks where you would get a rusty blade

Furthermore, could have the blades of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses for different tasks.

A multitool with just a lot of knife blades on it, could be quite thin, no need to go overboard with the number of blades, maybe designed on a swiss army knife design rather than butterfly opening, since wouldnt want any pliers on it.

However...what if the main 'tool', normally pliers, was some sort of double sided knife itself; the handles would need to fully close to form the handle, not stay partially open like with pliers.

Sounds like it might have been interesting.

[Tom Munch]

That's a pretty weird, but useful, idea.  It seems there have been multiple blades, but the only possibility of finding one already made would be for a specific industry that needs different materials.

Tom

[J-sews]

Hmm, wonder if there will ever be a tool produced (or if there is one already) which has mulitple knife blades on it made of different materials, to be used for different tasks.

So maybe one made of basic steel for all your everyday common tasks.
Maybe a ceramic one for ones where you need a really sharp knife
Maybe a titanium one for tasks where you would get a rusty blade

Furthermore, could have the blades of different shapes, sizes and thicknesses for different tasks.

A multitool with just a lot of knife blades on it, could be quite thin, no need to go overboard with the number of blades, maybe designed on a swiss army knife design rather than butterfly opening, since wouldnt want any pliers on it.

However...what if the main 'tool', normally pliers, was some sort of double sided knife itself; the handles would need to fully close to form the handle, not stay partially open like with pliers.

Sounds like it might have been interesting.

I gotta hand it to you Raukodur, you are ALWAYS thinking outside the box and coming up with these interesting ideas and questions.   

[inkster]

Here's a couple of Benchmades  that use different steels on the same knives

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=921

http://www.nraknives.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=12700

I think there's more from Benchmade, and from other companies as well.

I personally like 154 CM  S30V is very hard to sharpen, but it does hold a serious edge for a long time depending on what you do with it.   

[J-sews]

Ironic that these two knives apparently have two different philosophies. The Switchback uses premium steel (S30V) on its MAIN blade with a 440C secondary. Meanwhile, the Steigerwalt has a premium steel (AUS8) SECONDARY blade, and uses 440C on the main. Exactly opposite.

Hmmmm.....which arrangement would be better?

[inkster]

You can get the switchback for over 100, and the other for about 30. That is premium steel for the price  LOL

[damota]

S30V is very hard to sharpen, but it does hold a serious edge for a long time depending on what you do with it.   

Ain't it just!

Dave

[Lion]

All else being equal, S30V is supposed to be a better steel than 154cm. I have S30V in a Spyderco Native and 154cm in my Charge. Don't have a problem sharpening either one. Would I buy a new tool just to get the S30V blade? NO! IMO, it really isn't worth it. As others have said, I'd be perfectly happy with 440C. 440C was considered to be the premium stainless for quite some time. Personally, I don't think the newer stainless steels have improved upon it enough to warrant the price increase.

As for titanium, it makes a poor knife blade(I'd much rather have 420) that's very corrosion resistant and nonmagnetic. Some alloys are better than others, but as far as I know, no one has come up with a titanium alloy that holds an edge as well as a SAK. Admitidly, I haven't payed attention in a while, but I kind of doubt it changed. Titanium just isn't a good material for making knife blades. Steels such as H-1 are very corrosion resistant and and hold a significantly better edge. So, unless you really need your blade to be nonmagnetic, forget titanium.

Sorry for getting wordy. Couldn't help myself.

Leo

[Raukodur]

hmm, you see, im surprised, are titanium knives so expensive just because they are non-magnetic and corrosion resistant?

I would have thought that unless they also had a major advantage in terms of sharpness and edge retention and hardness of blade or whatever, they wouldn't be so pricy?

[Anthony]

Titanium itself I think is more expensive, so you're paying for just the material to begin with.

[Grant Lamontagne]

It's kind of funny...  titanium itself isn't overly expensive unless you are using Uncle Sam's Brand Titanium.

Titanium is the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust. and Uncle Sam is the world's biggest buyer.  Unfortunately, the US Government only buys stuff that is mined and refined by US workers.  Great on paper because it keeps US workers working, but that adds significantly to the cost.  Similar grades of titanium from Russia or (GASP) China are significantly cheaper.

All in all, much of the cost depends on where it comes from.

In addition, another hunk of the cost comes in the difficulty of manufacturing.  Titanium is much harder on grinders and other equipment meaning that the production costs are higher, and also greater man hours to work it.  All of this is why titanium is an expensive material, despite being not terribly expensive....  if that makes any sense!

Def

[Raukodur]

so apart from non-corrosive and non-magnetic nature of titanium, is there any advantage to making a knife out of titanium?

If not, or if the opposite is true and its actually not a good material to make knives for apart from the two aforementioned reasons, then what properties of steel does titanium not have, which are wanted in a knife?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Titanium will take a good edge, but you will have to be more agressive to sharpen it.  I'd suggest using a diamond stone since it's so hard.  It will resist most anything else.  Titanium also benfits from being about half the weight of a typical knife steel, so if you are a camper/hiker and weight is an issue, then titanium might be right for you.  You can carry a large blade without havign the weight.  It also allows you to chop longer, which is good because you'll also have to chop harder since a titanium blade won't build up as much kinetic energy when you swing it.

Titanium makes a good knife blade, and it certainly does have it's benefits.  Less important benefits are that it can be anodized in very pretty colors, and it's also way cooler than any fancy steel!

Does it have it's place?  Heck yeah.  If you need any of the features it has- corrosion resistance, excellent edge retention and reduced weight, then yes, it's probably the best steel out there.  However, if ease of sharpening, heavy chopping and low cost are important to you, I'd probably just buy a SAK.

Def

[Raukodur]

Ok Def, well thats pretty much what I thought, which would seem to me that titanium is generally much better than steel for making blades, even if a lot more expensive.

What are the reasons for people saying its not? is this a matter of opinion...?

Hmm, going in a different route with this blade question, what kind of blade edges work best? Straight, curved? Smooth, serrated, micro serrations?

I would have thought some sort of tiny microserrations (so fine they wouldnt 'catch' on anything, but sufficient to give you a slight sawing action) would have been best, in a general all round way.

Are blades ever diamond edged?

[damota]

so apart from non-corrosive and non-magnetic nature of titanium, is there any advantage to making a knife out of titanium?

IMO the only reason to use titanium in a knife would be for it's non magnetic property by the military. I use a knife as a tool and like any tool it gets quite a lot of abuse as well as use. I am not willing to pay the extra when steel will do the job I need in both a knife or a multi-tool. I have found normal maintenance covers any rust problems steel is supposed to offer (rust is just a short term cosmetic problem that is easily cured with a bit of care). If you do not want to look after your tools or use them in a area were rust might be a problem like under sea water, you can get titanium coated tools that would do the job for you.

If not, or if the opposite is true and its actually not a good material to make knives for apart from the two aforementioned reasons, then what properties of steel does titanium not have, which are wanted in a knife?

I think of titanium just as a cosmetic item to make a tool a piece of jewelry. Personally if I paid extra for a knife for looks I would have Damascus blades rather than titanium, just for the looks, I would never use it for work.

Dave

[matlt]

To elaborate more on your original question the difference in steel makes a dramatic difference. S30V, simply speaking, is considered the king of knife steels. It doesn't have the best edge retention, it doesn't have the most resistance to rust, and it isn't the least likely candidate to break. But all said and done, it is by all means the best combination of all these traits you can get. You get what you pay for, simple as that. S30V is considered by the majority of steel nuts to be at the top, while the "super stainless" 154cm and ats-34 are tied at second. The 400 series and AUS series steels are the most commonly used. 440C and AUS8 are the common ones that are worth while. Benchmade is a big fan of 440C blades. 440C is the higher carbon content of the 440 series, and to put it simply carbon is what makes a blade tougher. 440A is the cheaper and less usable steel. 440A is what you would most likely find a $50 sword from the mall to be made out of. They are basically useless for just about any purpose other than display. Also, when a manufacturer doesn't tell you what a blade is made out of, you can be pretty sure that it's 440A. More important than knife steel, is heat treatment. Regardless of what steel you use, heat treatment makes or breaks the blade. A properly made 440A blade by a good manufacturer will outperform a botched job on an S30V blade. In regards to leatherman starting to use better steels in their blades, the intentions are commendable, but in my opinion overkill. I've been carrying a leatherman for several years now, and I would not consider the knife on my kick or core a knife. It's a sharpened chunk of steel and I have very rarely used them. If I was in a situation where I had to use the blade on either to cut through something tough, I would be afraid of the blade snapping and hurting someone. In fact, if I had to choose between carrying a pocket knife or a leatherman, it would be a pocket knife. It is very likely that these blades are made out of 440A. So the need for stronger steels in these blades is obvious. As stated in an earlier post, 440C or AUS8 would be the best candidate. S30V is much more than needed, and is almost pointless in a tool where the shape of the blade is confined to something that doesn't make a very efficient cutting tool. Although the one handed opening models have more sensible shapes, they are still shaped the way they are to conform to the tool. I am afraid that putting such a steel on a blade will bring some people too much confidence in it's abilities. It is not a suitable replacement for a pocket knife. It is a compromise. As for the questions regarding titanium blades, the only purpose they serve is when rust is a big issue. Titanium does not perform as well as hardened steel on rockwell tests. It's limit is around 50 when most blades are brought to 58-60. It is a downgrade that shouldn't be made unless working in a salt water environment. But, titanium is used in every other part of a knife, for handles, liners, locks, etc.

[joebw]

Hi All,

What knife manufacturers make knives or tools with a titanium blade?

Thanks - Joe

[Grant Lamontagne]

Discussing what steel is the "best" is a little like going to a multicultural festival and saying your religeon is the best.  Only the religeous debate will probably end up being less heated!

For instance, I disagree that s30v is the "best" steel, and I would also challenge the claim that "most" serious knife people prefer it, and I've been a fairly prominent member of the knifing community for more than a few years now.

As for what companies make a titanium bladed knife, there are a few but the ones that come to mind most (indeed the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but then I'm a little distracted at the moment) would be Mission Knife and Tool.  Their entire line is made of titanium knives.

Def