WTF is this world coming too

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I hope it makes you a decent human being, as I would have smacked the Dad for saying that too

[John]

Look guy's! I'm saying they should give a 0 tolerance on everyone NO! matter the age,or should we consider 100 yrs old ppls as well  it can go on you know 

[John]

Ok sometimes the police are wrong i.e "hello! what do we have here"? Nothing dude? what's the problem? 

Just seems you have a out of date pizza hut discount card? LOL give us all a chance 

"yeah ok can I call my mom?"


"No" you are coming with us BTW we like to use force,if it's all right with you 

[GraysonK]

Ok sometimes the police are wrong i.e "hello! what do we have here"? Nothing dude? what's the problem? 

Just seems you have a out of date pizza hut discount card? LOL give us all a chance 

"yeah ok can I call my mom?"


"No" you are coming with us BTW we like to use force,if it's all right with you 

Huh?

[John]

Ok sometimes the police are wrong i.e "hello! what do we have here"? Nothing dude? what's the problem?  

Just seems you have a out of date pizza hut discount card? LOL give us all a chance  

"yeah ok can I call my mom?"


"No" you are coming with us BTW we like to use force,if it's all right with you  

Huh?

Huh! we will twist you up! ok! "Cuffs"  
Huh?  nieve  

[J-sews]

Ok sometimes the police are wrong i.e "hello! what do we have here"? Nothing dude? what's the problem?  

Just seems you have a out of date pizza hut discount card? LOL give us all a chance  

"yeah ok can I call my mom?"


"No" you are coming with us BTW we like to use force,if it's all right with you  

Huh?

Huh! we will twist you up! ok! "Cuffs"  
Huh?  nieve  

Huh?

[John]

Ok sometimes the police are wrong i.e "hello! what do we have here"? Nothing dude? what's the problem?  

Just seems you have a out of date pizza hut discount card? LOL give us all a chance  

"yeah ok can I call my mom?"


"No" you are coming with us BTW we like to use force,if it's all right with you  

Huh?

Huh! we will twist you up! ok! "Cuffs"  
Huh?  nieve  

Huh?

[John]

Yet another one to add  WTF is this world coming too 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8233822.stm

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

It really is disgusting isn't it

[ringzero]

It's not too good is it? People seem to increasingly lack that moral restraint that prevents them from committing horrifying acts, and it has certainly spread to the kids. It makes me wonder what defines a human being   

Sadly enough, I must admit that the radical Islamists may have a valid point here.

They look at Western societies and believe they have become so Godless, so immoral, so hedonistic, and so corrupt that only the importation of Islam can save the West from self destructing.

I don't think things are quite that bad yet, but things are trending in that direction.

.

[ducktapehero]

They look at Western societies and believe they have become so Godless, so immoral, so hedonistic, and so corrupt that only the importation of Islam can save the West from self destructing.

I find it ironic that people(I use this term loosely) who believe in "honor killings" think they can judge us.

[ufox9al]

...They look at Western societies and believe they have become so Godless...

True, it happened  through the process known as "evolution".

[ducktapehero]

deleted, I didn't quite say what I meant to say.

[ringzero]

...They look at Western societies and believe they have become so Godless...

True, it happened  through the process known as "evolution".

Exactly right and it always happens that way.

A free Republic comes into existence and lasts for a while, until it evolves into a Democracy.

Then, as surely as night follows day, that Democracy evolves into an Autocracy, which eventually evolves into Tyranny.

Societies always evolve through those forms, nearly without exception throughout recorded history.

.

[ducktapehero]

I don't think "evolve" is the best term. Sure, we flirt with different governments occasionally but the same result always happens. Those in power use any and all methods to stay in power. Eventually though, they fall and another group takes its place. Then they become, in essence, the exact same thing that they replaced.

Evolving, at least to me, means changing. Humankind hasn't changed. Sure we've got better technology than before but we've got the same attitudes, values and morals as those living 5000 years ago.

[Whoey]

people still have values and morals?

[John]

people still have values and morals?

Yeah but it's a shame it's not practised throughout mankind  

 also some ppls have different morals and values than one would like, unfortunetley we don't all share what we consider good morals and values 

[ufox9al]

... Humankind hasn't changed. Sure we've got better technology than before but we've got the same attitudes, values and morals as those living 5000 years ago.

Yes and no, it really depends on specific "values" and "morals", especially comparing modern Western society. Human sacrifice, slavery, polygamy spring to mind.

[ducktapehero]

especially comparing modern Western society. Human sacrifice, slavery, polygamy spring to mind.

Human sacrifice, well not in a "let's keep the Gods happy" sense but powerful people are still more than happy to sacrifice a few "lesser" people than before.

And slavery? Well maybe not technically but in reality we are still slaves to the powerful.

And polygamy? Have you been to Utah? As always it's a small minority doing it but it's still here.

Things never change. Sure, now it's packaged different but if you really think about it it's all the same.

[ringzero]

I don't think "evolve" is the best term. Sure, we flirt with different governments occasionally but the same result always happens. Those in power use any and all methods to stay in power. Eventually though, they fall and another group takes its place. Then they become, in essence, the exact same thing that they replaced.

Evolving, at least to me, means changing. Humankind hasn't changed. Sure we've got better technology than before but we've got the same attitudes, values and morals as those living 5000 years ago.

Good point, ducktapehero.

Evolve isn't the best term, but I used it because it was in the post I was replying to.

"Devolve" is actually the term historians use, because it implies a higher form descending to a lower form.  Going from better to worse.

A Republic devolves into a Democracy.

A Democracy devolves into an Autocracy.

An Autocracy devolves into a Tyranny.

Two classic cases of this are Athens and Rome, both of which were once free Republics that devolved through all of these stages to Tyrannies.  These two are the most studied because the historical records are so plentiful, but there are many other examples of societal devolution.

Values and morals really aren't the same as 5000 years ago - not even close.

But human nature is the same as it was 5000 years ago, to the best of our knowledge.

.

[ducktapehero]

Values and morals really aren't the same as 5000 years ago - not even close.

We must not even agree on what "values and morals" are because I don't see any fundamental shift in how humankind treats each other.

We value freedom, peace, wealth and love, and so did our ancestors. And morally we're still about the same. There is a definite sense of "right and wrong" that humans have that is similar to what they had. Of course there will never be total agreement as some cultures are so different than others but the vast majority of us know it's wrong to kill a person without reason. It's wrong to hurt kids etc etc.

In that way is what I'm talking about. We're still the same. We'll always be the same.

[ringzero]

Values and morals really aren't the same as 5000 years ago - not even close.

We must not even agree on what "values and morals" are because I don't see any fundamental shift in how humankind treats each other.

We value freedom, peace, wealth and love, and so did our ancestors. And morally we're still about the same. There is a definite sense of "right and wrong" that humans have that is similar to what they had. Of course there will never be total agreement as some cultures are so different than others but the vast majority of us know it's wrong to kill a person without reason. It's wrong to hurt kids etc etc.

In that way is what I'm talking about. We're still the same. We'll always be the same.

I think "human nature" is the commonly used term for what you're talking about here.  I agree that human nature hasn't changed much, if at all, in only 5000 years because it's inbuilt - "the Nature of the Beast."

Morals are human constructs, most often with a basis in religion, but usually also reflective of human nature.

I said morals are human constructs, but that's open to dispute.

For example, if you believe that God literally gave Moses the Ten Commandments on a mountaintop, then to you those Ten Commandments aren't human constructs at all, but Divine constructs.

.
   

Morals are   

[ducktapehero]

Morals are human constructs, most often with a basis in religion, but usually also reflective of human nature.

I said morals are human constructs, but that's open to dispute.

OK, this is where we disagree. I think morals are, for most people, within us. Even non religious people simply know that certain things are right and wrong. Of course there are psycopaths who don't have those feelings but they're the exception, not the rule. Of course different societies will have different "morals" on somethings but I'm talking in general.

But I will admit I believe in God. I believe that it's our morals and our self awareness that will always separate us from the animals.

[ringzero]

Morals are human constructs, most often with a basis in religion, but usually also reflective of human nature.

I said morals are human constructs, but that's open to dispute.

OK, this is where we disagree. I think morals are, for most people, within us. Even non religious people simply know that certain things are right and wrong. Of course there are psycopaths who don't have those feelings but they're the exception, not the rule. Of course different societies will have different "morals" on somethings but I'm talking in general.

But I will admit I believe in God. I believe that it's our morals and our self awareness that will always separate us from the animals.

Well, the Ten Commandments (10 Com. for short) are very basic to Judeo-Christian morality and hence to the morality of all of Western Civilization.

(And IIRC, Islam also acknowledges the 10 Com. as Divine.)

Is it your position that the 10 Com. derive from human nature?  I don't think that position will stand up to even very simple analysis.

If not human nature, then what is the source of the 10 Com?

Direct from God?  That's the position of most Christians and Jews.

A human construct based on Judaism?  That's the position of most secularists.

Either way, the 10 Com didn't "come from within" and aren't based on "human nature."

.
   

[ducktapehero]

OK you just got a little too deep for me. 

I'll just state that laws are, in general, derived from what our moral values are. Now as to the origins of the 10 Com, well that discussion starts getting into religion and other things, not merely morals.

[Whoey]

Well, not that this is the same, but there have been several incidents here in the media in Spain since we moved here that really make me wonder WTF is wrong with the world lately...

One of them was that a couple were in a shop, and the boyfriend started yelling and smacking the girlfriend around, in public... they went to leave, and a passer by intervened telling the boyfriend to leave her alone, and then continued on his way into the shop. The Boyfriend went mental, chased the guy into the shop, AND BEAT HIM INTO A COMA. Obviously it was on the security cameras, and the guy was charged and put in jail, but wait, that's not it... the girlfriend was going on all the gossip tv shows DEFENDING her boyfriend... even though he abuses her and she even filed a restraining order against him at one point.

The world is messed up...

[ducktapehero]

a passer by intervened telling the boyfriend to leave her alone, and then continued on his way into the shop. The Boyfriend went mental, chased the guy into the shop, AND BEAT HIM INTO A COMA.

I feel bad for the guy and I'm not blaming him but if you're going to intervene in something you'd better be ready to back it up. The guy was obviously violent, it makes sense that if you piss him off he's going to get violent on you.

[Whoey]

the real problem is that all the other people were just standing around pretending it wasnt happening... no solidarity in anything.

[ducktapehero]

the real problem is that all the other people were just standing around pretending it wasnt happening... no solidarity in anything.

That's true too.

[sappyg]

Morals are human constructs, most often with a basis in religion, but usually also reflective of human nature.

I said morals are human constructs, but that's open to dispute.

OK, this is where we disagree. I think morals are, for most people, within us. Even non religious people simply know that certain things are right and wrong. Of course there are psycopaths who don't have those feelings but they're the exception, not the rule. Of course different societies will have different "morals" on somethings but I'm talking in general.

But I will admit I believe in God. I believe that it's our morals and our self awareness that will always separate us from the animals.

Well, the Ten Commandments (10 Com. for short) are very basic to Judeo-Christian morality and hence to the morality of all of Western Civilization.

(And IIRC, Islam also acknowledges the 10 Com. as Divine.)

Is it your position that the 10 Com. derive from human nature?  I don't think that position will stand up to even very simple analysis.

If not human nature, then what is the source of the 10 Com?

Direct from God?  That's the position of most Christians and Jews.

A human construct based on Judaism?  That's the position of most secularists.

Either way, the 10 Com didn't "come from within" and aren't based on "human nature."

.
   

i beg to differ.. the 10 commandments did come from within. exactly as other religious works did.