Got a speeding ticket

[Grant Lamontagne]

I got a speeding ticket today- my first time ever, and it's a doozy.  They are claiming that I was doing 84kph in a 50kph zone which carries a penalty of $394.50 and 4 points off my license.  I say "claiming" because I feel it was in error, and not that "I was probably doing it but I don't want to admit it" type error.  In all my years of driving I have never had a ticket for one reason- I don't speed, and if I do speed, it's never excessive like they are claiming this to be.  Hell, I was in my Jeep, which is not exactly an excessive speed type machine, and I honestly feel that they picked me out simply because the bright yellow was easier to follow in traffic.

It also wasn't a police officer that pulled me over.  In my city there are two bridges, which are the domain of the "Bridge Police" which are a private security company (Commissionaires) made up of guys retired from or medically discharged from the military and didn't manage to get far enough up to get much of a pension.  The section of highway leading up to one of the bridges drops from 80kph to 50kph, and they sit at the tolls just under 1km from where the limit changes and pick people off with a radar gun.  While I think this is a good idea as it keeps people from speeding right up to the tolls, you end up with these guys trying to accurately guage speeds at 500+ yards away with a handheld radar gun.  My guess is, they picked someone off at that speed and followed me because my Jeep is somewhat eye catching in bright yellow.

What are my excuses for not speeding there?  Pretty lame really- I know they are set up there, both because I cross that bridge at least ten times a week (Ask JZMTL how many times we went across it in the few hours he was with me!) and because my boss got nailed there (legitimately) a couple of months ago.  So, I know for a fact that they are there, why the heck would I be speeding, even if I was the type to speed in the first place?  In fact, I regularly have people honking at me and flipping me off for slowing down there when they are trying to speed through.  Of course, all of that just sounds like the kind of BS excuse that I sure as hell wouldn't believe if I was in their shoes, so what are the odds that a judge would believe me?

At this time of day there is also enough other traffic (three lanes at that section, right before it opens up into 6-7 lanes to go through the tolls) that they could have easily gotten another car and thought it was me.  As I was waiting for the officer (and I hate using that term to describe these twits) to fill out my ticket I took several photos of the oncoming traffic since I was stopped at what would be their point of view, so I can argue that there is enough traffic to have confused them, but that's also a pretty shaky excuse.

Summing it up, my best defense is that:

a) I never speed and my driving history will uphold that in that I've been driving for almost 20 years with no previous speeding tickets, although I have had tickets for other things, like expired plates and whatnot.

b)  I know there is a speed trap there as I cross the bridge frequently and I was in my boss' truck when he got pulled over there, so why would I speed knowing that they are there fairly often?

c)  There was a significant amount of traffic there and there is a possibility they were mistaken.

Of course, as one who listens to excuses like that quite often, I doubt I would believe me either.   

So, any of the cops here have any suggestions on how I should proceed?  I have contacted a lawyer, but that will probably run me close to $1,000.00 to fight it, and of course that guarantees me nothing, so I might end up dropping $1,000 in addition to the $400 ticket and the increase in my insurance.

Def

[Mr. Whippy]

Geeze, I hate to give any advice, seeing that you live in Canuckistan, but in the Communist State of Maryland, the standard advice is:

If it is your first ticket in the last 5 years, go to court.  If it's a felony charge OR you could lose your license, hire a lawyer--it's part of the game. 

If it's the first ticket in 5 years AND it's only a fine with points, go alone.  GENERALLY the judge will waive the points (saves you insurance rate hikes) and drops the fine to "court costs".

[Sazabi]

You could get records to see when the radar gun was last calibrated, or actual documentation somehow "proving" that they, in fact, were targeting your car, otherwise it's just word of mouth with no true "Oh, it was you, yup yup yup."

Or could you ask to take a driving school class instead of points and the fine?  I know it'd suck, but better than what they're "charging" you with at the moment. :/

Either way, that sucks.  I hope you can find a way out of it. :/

[Grant Lamontagne]

I considered the driving course thing.  According to the Registry Of Motor Vehicles website:

The Registrar may deduct up to four points from the record of a driver who has successfully completed a self-improvement defensive driving course within the preceding year. The points deducted are those that were first entered and are still existing on the driver's record. (Note: This does not apply to persons under the Graduated Licensing System.)

That, and the calibration thing could also sink my case, if the gun had been calibrated recently.  And, accepting a course is almost like an admission of guilt.  Still, the fine isn't what gets me, it's the insurance that is probably going to go nuts with this because of the fender bender I was in at Christmas time.

Def

[ufox9al]

In my experience of how things work in the Ontario court, you should definitely book a court date. You can the prepare he best explanation you can come up with for how the mistake could have been made (you were in this lane, there was a car passing you in the other lane, etc.). However, what you should try first, when you show up for hearing, is negotiate a plea bargain with the procecutor. You just come up to them before the judge comes and say "Here is the story... yadda, yadda, I might have been 10-15km over, moving with traffic, but not 34km over. So, how about I plead to 15km over, and we are done? Other wise, we'll let the judge decide.". The prosecutors are measured on the "win %" regardless of punishment, so they almost always go for it. Then you just wait for the judge, plead not guilty to the 34 over, plead guilty to 15 over and get away with no points and $60 fine. Needless to say, if the person who pulled you over does not show up, you are out free, regardless of whether you negotiated the plea bargainor not.

[jzmtl]

Oh man that sucks. To me when law enforcement is contracted to private hands, that's the end of justice.

Here's my story about the bridge. There are a couple of different types of toll booth, among them is one that's actually staffed by a person, and others that takes coins and open the gate automatically. There are big signs above them tell you how much the toll is (75c), but what it doesn't tell you is the machines don't give you change.

So there I was, going over the bridge for the first time ever. I see big signs, 75c tolls. Good, I have a two dollar coin so I'll use that. Drove up to the toll booth, drop it in, gate opens. But wait, where's my change!? There's not even a change slot on the machine!  People behind me started honking, and since there's no way I'm getting my change I had to drive off.

So first time In Halifax, I got ripped off by the same company that gives Grant a ticket.

By the way Grant drives like a grandma, so there's no way he can speed that much. 

[Chako]

Well that sucks.

I haven't received a ticket yet, but almost did on my Birthday. I sort of felt sorry for the police officer. Mind you, afterwards, I thought it was rather comical.

I parked in front of my friends house. He lives very near the Hospital. People park in the narrow street all the time so as not to pay the 3 dollars parking fee. Because of this, the streets have signs stating that there is no street parking between 9 to 11, and 2 to 4 (visiting hours of the Hospital). I had to park in front of his house because he has practically no driveway and certainly no room for a second vehicle.

this particular day, I was driving 5 of us to the Island for a boat ride with his in-laws. We all got to the street parked van at around 9:05. I note a police cruiser park across and down the small street. I comment on it to my friends who are all talking and getting ready to load the van to leave. He tells me that it is the same guy who tickets everyone on the street religiously. He does the rounds. Ok, I tell him that we had better leave soon, but if I get a ticket..then so be it. I had no place else to park. As we are leaving in no big hurry, around 9:07, I see the police hurriedly get out of his car and shuts the door. He quickly moves forward to ticket the first vehicle, but somehow cuts the corner too close and catches his driver side mirror. He falls down to the ground and his tickets fly everywhere. As I slowly pass him, I stop the vehicle and enquire if he needed any help. I was worried as he took a nasty fall. He told me he was ok. As he said this, he ripped one of the tickets up from the pavement...I can only assume it was mine. He gets up quickly, brushes himself off and picks up all his fallen tickets and quickly tickets everyone on the street. As I slowly drive away with a van load of howling people because it was a truly comical event to witness, I looked in my rear view mirror two minutes later and guess who was following us. We got shadowed right up to city limits by that police officer.

I told a few friends who are on the local force, and they got a big chuckle about it. They told me the guy is rather new, and probably got a bit excited to see one of his marks drive off without a ticket.

[WhichDawg]

that sucks!   "speed-trap!"

got any reporter friends/connections! get on the news, start a petition!
and if you need character witnesses, most of us would
gladly tell them how "slow" you are  

[Anthony]

Fradulent speeding tickets such as those are exactly that, fraudulent.  It's also extortsion.  But who are we to argue right?

I got a speeding ticket a few months ago also.  Their tactic is to have an officer walk out into the middle of the street (25mph limit), wave over the first  3-4 cars in a row, and ticket each and every one.

[Sazabi]

Fradulent speeding tickets such as those are exactly that, fraudulent.  It's also extortsion.  But who are we to argue right?

I got a speeding ticket a few months ago also.  Their tactic is to have an officer walk out into the middle of the street (25mph limit), wave over the first  3-4 cars in a row, and ticket each and every one.

I've never gotten a ticket before *knocks on wood* but I /hate hate hate/ 25mph zones, or lower.  For speeds that low, it would make sense to set cruise control on that speed... but no, it doesn't engage on such low speeds, making it extremely difficult for me to stay as such a low speed. ._.

[Sea Monster]

I have no useful advice for you, I avoid cops like the goddamn plague, and if anything becomes an issue I pack up and leave. Me and the Man don't get along

(For fenderbenders, if you turn up looking upset with detailed written descriptions of the event and little drawn schematics of what happened, you get a good review! at least the first time)


But as an unrelated side of humour -

In the last three months, 5 fixed speed cameras in my area have been set on fire. linky

The People have Spoken 

[eodtech]

A couple things come to mind

Are radar guns subject to a annual inspection and calibration in the Province?
If they are ask the officer to produce the " entire record " for the exact radar gun he used to bag you.
If they use a number of radar guns how does he know this is the particular gun he used the day he got you
Are the radar guns signed out on a daily basis , are they used by different officers
Is the gun carried in a holster or is it on a shelf subject to being banged around, dropped or coffee / soda spilt on it
Look to see if there are any times the gun was out of calibration, not working properly or had to be sent for repairs
According to the manufacturer is the radar gun equipped with the latest version of software

Has the officer been trained in it's operation
Is he certified to use the exact model gun he was using
Does he require re-certification on a regular basis
Ask him to produce his current certification in court

Ask why he gave YOU a ticket
Does he give everyone a ticket he stops
Does he ever let anyone go without a ticket because they are friends or a police officer or relative?
Would he give the judge a ticket or a warning
What is the policy on warnings - what determins a warning vs a ticket

Get they guy flustered and pay attention to his answers so you can dig deeper

My guess is the guns are not properly calibrated or certified and the operator probably does not know what he is doing

Look in the local newspaper archives for court cases on the bridge, go to the court and see what decisions have been made in similar cases and pay attention to how others beat the charge.

Look for a book on fighting a speeding ticket at the library

ASK  a law enforcement officer  not on the bridge cops for his opinion and thoughts.

Look at the bridge cops personnel records and see if there are any problems in his past, time off for improper or inappropriate behavior or reprimands for his job performance on the job.

Is he a drunk , pill popper, why did he get kicked out of the military or his last job. What did he do for ajobbefore being a bridge cop?

Because of the technical issues involved, it's probably easier to get off on a technicality than not when radar is used.

AND remember cops don't give cops tickets, ever !!! 

[duckman1975]

Hope you get out of it, from you explanation you are not speeding.

[cgk]

AND remember cops don't give cops tickets, ever !!! 

Not true.  I have given and received.

[cgk]

Def-PM sent

[Grant Lamontagne]

AND remember cops don't give cops tickets, ever !!! 

Tragically that doesn't help me anyway as I'm not a cop, and neither was the guy that issued the ticket.  He was a Commissionaire, and while I have refrained from saying anything about the Commissionaires in general (although I did let some of it slip earlier) since I didn't want to sound like I am bashing them in retaliation, but here is some interesting information about them.  Bear in mind that my father was military, I spent the first twenty years of my life in military surroundings, have a degree in Criminal and Civil Law and about 15 years experience in private law enforcement, so I know things about these guys that even many of them don't know!

The Canadian Corps of Commissionaires was developed after WWII to give soldiers who were injured and discharged from the military some kind of purpose and employment.  Most of the duties involved things like working in gate houses where they would log visitors in and out.  As injured soldiers started to thin out and retire after so many years, it was opened up to help military personnel without significant pensions make ends meet- ie, those guys that never managed to go far in the military, many of whom were simply slackers or had other personality traits that kept them from being promoted.  At some point (again I'm not sure when) they added in retired RCMP officers.  Soon they ended up with too many Commissionaires and not enough positions in various government locations, so someone got the idea to start hiring these guys out as a private security firm, claiming all their people were military/law enforcement trained, which is true, at least to a point.  What they don't advertise is that these guys are either medically incapable of remaining with the military or RCMP, or they were incapable of meritorious service and/or advancement.  Basically, the bottom of the barrel, but then that's ok, as most security companies in Canada are bottom feeders anyway, and most of the guards they employ are only there because they can't pass the aptitude test at Burger King.

As the Commissionaires  started to grow in the private security market they found they needed more personnel, which meant they lowered their standards even more, taking anyone who had ever been in Cadets (for those who don't know, it's the military equivalent of Cub Scouts) and eventually anyone with any kind of security experience, including the afore mentioned Burger King dropouts.

I apologize if this summary offends anyone who is, was or knows anyone who was a Commissionaire, but it is the tragic truth, although not all Commissionaires are useless, lazy or medically unfit, but the vast majority of them are, as that's pretty well what the Corps was made for.

And, if it still sounds like I am uselessly bashing them, here is a great example, and I am certain Whoey can back me up on this one as it's the father of a mutual friend of ours...

The gentleman in question was in Transport at the local military base (CFB Shearwater) until his tunnel vision shrank to the point where he could only see small areas directly in front of him and his driver's license was revoked.  After serving some time in "modified duties" which kept him from operating vehicles in any capacity, he was eventually given a medical discharge, and as he was only a Master Corporal after 20+ years in the military (I'll get to THAT one in a minute!) he became a Commissionaire while his eyesight kept deteriorating.  During that time, he was rented out to a variety of locations around the city as a security guard- a virtually blind security guard, with no peripheral vision whatsoever.

And, while I don't want to pick on this guy too much, Military ranks in Canada are pretty simple.  When you join, you become a Private.  If, after two years you manage not to get yourself thrown out of the military for burning the Base Commander's underpants while he is wearing them, you are automatically given a second bar and you are a Corporal.  Master Corporal is the first rank you actually earn, and it's like the first level of a video game- pretty easy.  After that, if you want to be a Seargent, you have to put in some effort, which is why there are so many Master Corporals!

Anyways, this is not a rant about the military, it's just an attempt to show that the Commissionaires are not the kind of folks who should be issuing citations in general....

Def

[yud]

Ok I am not a lawyer, cop, or from Canada, BUT I do watch speeders fight back of TruTV and know how radar works so...

what you want to do is play up what a long radar shot it was and that a radar beam being a EM wave spreds out with the farther from the gun it gets, and being the most eye catching means you got the ticket

[Chako]

and most of the guards they employ are only there because they can't pass the aptitude test at Burger King

 

[Grant Lamontagne]

It's funny I know, but for a security speSmurfpillst like myself, it's almost impossible to be taken seriously.

Def

[Chako]

I bet.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Court date tomorrow- wish me luck everyone!

Def

[Sazabi]

Good luck, Grant; remember to not take any knives into the court building.   

[cgk]

Its about time, good luck.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Thanks guys- worst comes to worst, the existing charge sticks, and I'm out $400, plus I lose four points on my license, which means my insurance goes up.  Best case scenario, it get's dropped.  The two steps in between best and worst is a $60 fine and no points, and $250 and two points.

If I was the kind of guy who actually drove fast, I'd be really upset, but I'd accept it because of all the times I got away with it.

Interestingly enough, a friend of mine (lady in her 60's) was stopped in the exact same place yesterday, allegedly doing 79kph, and she was let off with a warning.

Def

[Kmarr]

just to throw in my 2 cents-
When I got my speeding ticket, I hired a lawyer for $250 cuz I was 18 and got my license 2 months earlier. I was doing 65 in a 40mph(sry idk the kilo conversions ).....
any way long story short I did a lot of research on how to get out of the ticket and I agree with most of all the tactics eodtech said.  If you reschedule your court date and the cop can't make the new date they might throw it out cuz there's no prosecution

[Styerman]

If it were me I would enter a not guilty plea , and get a trial date set , In Ont you can often talk to the prosecutor and get some kind of reduction in either monetary fine or points . If the prosecutor isn't in the mod to play ball , defend yourself in front of the judge , he may give you something off if you have a reasonable story , and demeanor .

Chris

[donvito]

Good luck Def, let us know how it goes oh and half a year to see a judge?

[cerbera147]

Best of luck Def 

I know how it feels 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Best of luck matey

[Grant Lamontagne]

just to throw in my 2 cents-
When I got my speeding ticket, I hired a lawyer for $250 cuz I was 18 and got my license 2 months earlier. I was doing 65 in a 40mph(sry idk the kilo conversions ).....
any way long story short I did a lot of research on how to get out of the ticket and I agree with most of all the tactics eodtech said.  If you reschedule your court date and the cop can't make the new date they might throw it out cuz there's no prosecution

I contacted a lawyer initially, who supposedly specializes in traffic fines.  He quoted over $1,000.  If I lose, that's another $1,000 on top of the $400 and the increase in insurance, so I'm not interested.  I also happen to be reasonably well versed in the law and have some court experience, although not in traffic court, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

If it were me I would enter a not guilty plea , and get a trial date set , In Ont you can often talk to the prosecutor and get some kind of reduction in either monetary fine or points . If the prosecutor isn't in the mod to play ball , defend yourself in front of the judge , he may give you something off if you have a reasonable story , and demeanor .

Chris

I've already plead not guilty and this evening is my actual trial.  I'm hoping at least for a reduction based on my clean driving record, some technicalities and random BS, since I have no real evidence.  Who videotapes every moment of their driving?  I know I'm starting to consider it....

Good luck Def, let us know how it goes oh and half a year to see a judge?

My guess is they are busy with real crimes.....

Def