*U"@~i^% H¬ll

[Paul]

Travelled down the same road to work for 15 years with all cars doing around 40mph - you just join in, and today got a £60 fine and 3 points for doing 36 mph. Anybody going to let me cry on their shoulder   - or do I deserve it?

That's a couple of decent SAK's    


  

[nuphoria]

I feel your pain.... it's a bit crap really!

[Gareth]

That does suck mate.

[thesuper]

Thats just plain sneaky I bet they do that a lot, lull you into a sense of false security, then WHAM ....thank you very much that'll be ££££££££ please.    No mate, you didnt deserve it, but you'd best pay it all the same

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

That's damn sneaky

[ducttapetech]

Man that sucks, that is a big load of BULL Sh...

[Benner]

Hate to be the opposite to everyone else here, but you have broken the law probably on and off for the last 15 years, consider yourself lucky that you have got away with it till now.

Everyone I expect speeds at some point, myself included and I just consider myself lucky to have not been stopped for it yet.  That day will come though and when it does I will take it on the chin.

[Paul]

Taken right on the chin Benner.......... I'm going to be holding them all up at 30 mph for a long time now.
This is a good place to come and whinge though innit? 

[Benner]

Taken right on the chin Benner.......... I'm going to be holding them all up at 30 mph for a long time now.
This is a good place to come and whinge though innit? 

Oh totally!  And by your post you could tell that had done just that.  I was just nagging at those that followed. 

[DaveK]

Hate to be the opposite to everyone else here, but you have broken the law probably on and off for the last 15 years, consider yourself lucky that you have got away with it till now.

Everyone I expect speeds at some point, myself included and I just consider myself lucky to have not been stopped for it yet.  That day will come though and when it does I will take it on the chin.

That doesn't mean that they're not fascist b*****ds though does it?

I love this site:

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/index2.htm

[Benner]

What, by catching you breaking the law? 

[DaveK]

If those "laws" are invoked purely to make money, creating danger on the roads as people brake sharply rather than making them safer, then it's plain wrong and even the police forces are having trouble defending the policy at the moment.

I don't think anyone has a problem with speed cameras in built up / residential areas, but have a look at some of the locations of cameras on that link I posted.

The spirit of the law was to reduce accidents on the road, what we're actually seeing is councils and police forces exploiting the law to generate revenue, and a few of them have been fined for doing it (it's not just my daft idea).

I got 3 points at the beginning of this year for jumping a red light. The camera got me at 0.25 seconds after the light turned red, and the only way for me to explain that hitting the brakes in the icy conditions would have caused a serious accident, would be if I'd have contested it in court. I couldn't really afford to take the chance, so I had to accept it and I think many people do.

It's all about money, not safety and so in many ways, the law is an ass!

[Benner]

I sensed that you had recently been caught for doing something.  How could I tell? 

I agree, it is a bit sneaky at times but you know what there is a very very simple way of avoiding all those problems.  Just don't speed.  It really is that simple.  If you speed and get caught then you have accepted to take that gamble and should accept the consequences. 

[DaveK]

That's a dangerous stance though Ben, as whilst it's obviously true, it doesn't make it acceptable. Where do you draw the line at toeing the line, even when the rule is unjust and there for debatable reasons?

Obviously we have to comply with law or face the consequences, that doesn't make the "law" right though does it, and what use is the right of free speech if you can't say you don't like it?

Personally it pisses me off that:

- The local supermarket won't sell me a video game with a '16' rating for my 15 year old son;
- That the chemist won't let me buy more than x painkillers when I can actually be trusted not to take an overdose;
- etc, etc.....

[Mr. Whippy]

I sensed that you had recently been caught for doing something.  How could I tell? 

I agree, it is a bit sneaky at times but you know what there is a very very simple way of avoiding all those problems.  Just don't speed.  It really is that simple.  If you speed and get caught then you have accepted to take that gamble and should accept the consequences. 

If speeding cameras were really about public safety, then fines would be much higher.  As it is, most are willing to gamble, such that most of the time, they don't get tagged.  Raise the fine to 1000 GBP and you'd see an end to speeding.  Until then, it's all about revenue generation.

In the US, there have been locales where this has been proven in court.  Based on the nature of the contracts signed with the company installing/maintaining the cameras, the systems were set for maximum revenue generation (ie set to trigger too early by fractions of a second at redlight cameras or deliberately miscalibrated with speed cameras).

In the State of Virginia, 20 mph over the limit is a felony with high fine ($1000 to start I think) and an automatic court appearance (essentially careless driving).  They were serious about speeding and did the right things to stop it.  Handing out 60 GBP tickets is just the price of admission to the show, not a real deterrence.

JMO

[Benner]

That's a dangerous stance though Ben, as whilst it's obviously true, it doesn't make it acceptable. Where do you draw the line at toeing the line, even when the rule is unjust and there for debatable reasons?

Obviously we have to comply with law or face the consequences, that doesn't make the "law" right though does it, and what use is the right of free speech if you can't say you don't like it?

Personally it pisses me off that:

- The local supermarket won't sell me a video game with a '16' rating for my 15 year old son;
- That the chemist won't let me buy more than x painkillers when I can actually be trusted not to take an overdose;
- etc, etc.....

How on earth is that a "dangerous stance"?    This isn't a law where there is some ambiguity, this is actually one that is pretty damn simple really and the good old people that do the roads even give you multiple signs with a nice red ring around them so you know what the speed is.  And who says that it's wrong?  Do you know the road he is on about?  Are you the car speeding expert?  No, you know neither.  All we (us at MTO) know is that Paul has been caught doing 36MPH is a 30 zone. Seems pretty cut and shut that if he had oboeyed the law (silly or not) he would not be in this situation.

Paul, that was not some dig at you BTW.  

[Benner]

I sensed that you had recently been caught for doing something.  How could I tell? 

I agree, it is a bit sneaky at times but you know what there is a very very simple way of avoiding all those problems.  Just don't speed.  It really is that simple.  If you speed and get caught then you have accepted to take that gamble and should accept the consequences. 

If speeding cameras were really about public safety, then fines would be much higher.  As it is, most are willing to gamble, such that most of the time, they don't get tagged.  Raise the fine to 1000 GBP and you'd see an end to speeding.  Until then, it's all about revenue generation.

In the US, there have been locales where this has been proven in court.  Based on the nature of the contracts signed with the company installing/maintaining the cameras, the systems were set for maximum revenue generation (ie set to trigger too early by fractions of a second at redlight cameras or deliberately miscalibrated with speed cameras).

In the State of Virginia, 20 mph over the limit is a felony with high fine ($1000 to start I think) and an automatic court appearance (essentially careless driving).  They were serious about speeding and did the right things to stop it.  Handing out 60 GBP tickets is just the price of admission to the show, not a real deterrence.

JMO

I never said it was about safety did I?     All I said was to not get stung by the law for speeding, don't speed.  That had nothing at all to do with the safety of it or whether I thought the restrictions in place are correct.

[DaveK]

That's a dangerous stance though Ben, as whilst it's obviously true, it doesn't make it acceptable. Where do you draw the line at toeing the line, even when the rule is unjust and there for debatable reasons?

Obviously we have to comply with law or face the consequences, that doesn't make the "law" right though does it, and what use is the right of free speech if you can't say you don't like it?

Personally it pisses me off that:

- The local supermarket won't sell me a video game with a '16' rating for my 15 year old son;
- That the chemist won't let me buy more than x painkillers when I can actually be trusted not to take an overdose;
- etc, etc.....

How on earth is that a "dangerous stance"?    This isn't a law where there is some ambiguity, this is actually one that is pretty damn simple really and the good old people that do the roads even give you multiple signs with a nice red ring around them so you know what the speed is.  And who says that it's wrong?  Do you know the road he is on about?  Are you the car speeding expert?  No, you know neither.  All we (us at MTO) know is that Paul has been caught doing 36MPH is a 30 zone. Seems pretty cut and shut that if he had oboeyed the law (silly or not) he would not be in this situation.

Paul, that was not some dig at you BTW.  

You reckon? I read recently, (but unfortunately can't find the article right now), that 15% of charges arising from cameras are thrown out of court. Apparently, this number would be more than double, if people realised that you can actually contest these things, and that something like 30% of the notices issued wouldn't stand up in court.

Since these cameras were first introduced in the UK, the guidelines have been changed several times in an attempt to make things safety measures as opposed to nice little earners for the authorities. The speeds recorded are often inaccurate for a variety of reasons, the positioning of cameras often isn't legal, the visibility of the cameras is often contrary to the guidelines etc.

I'd say that a 1 in 3 chance that the ticket you just got is actually accurate shows that things are very ambiguous!

[Benner]

Well I'll make it simple for you Dave, if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH. 

[DaveK]

Well I'll make it simple for you Dave, if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH. 

And if I do, and get a picture through the post a few days later saying I was doing 36?

You may be able to recall your exact speed for every mile you drive, but I've done 20,000 miles so far this year!

[Benner]

Well I'll make it simple for you Dave, if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH. 

And if I do, and get a picture through the post a few days later saying I was doing 36?

You may be able to recall your exact speed for every mile you drive, but I've done 20,000 miles so far this year!

But this was about Paul's thread where he said that he was, so where's the argument there?

[Mr. Whippy]

I sensed that you had recently been caught for doing something.  How could I tell? 

I agree, it is a bit sneaky at times but you know what there is a very very simple way of avoiding all those problems.  Just don't speed.  It really is that simple.  If you speed and get caught then you have accepted to take that gamble and should accept the consequences. 

If speeding cameras were really about public safety, then fines would be much higher.  As it is, most are willing to gamble, such that most of the time, they don't get tagged.  Raise the fine to 1000 GBP and you'd see an end to speeding.  Until then, it's all about revenue generation.

In the US, there have been locales where this has been proven in court.  Based on the nature of the contracts signed with the company installing/maintaining the cameras, the systems were set for maximum revenue generation (ie set to trigger too early by fractions of a second at redlight cameras or deliberately miscalibrated with speed cameras).

In the State of Virginia, 20 mph over the limit is a felony with high fine ($1000 to start I think) and an automatic court appearance (essentially careless driving).  They were serious about speeding and did the right things to stop it.  Handing out 60 GBP tickets is just the price of admission to the show, not a real deterrence.

JMO

I never said it was about safety did I?     All I said was to not get stung by the law for speeding, don't speed.  That had nothing at all to do with the safety of it or whether I thought the restrictions in place are correct.

If that's the case, just turn it into a tollway and let the drivers have at it. 

[DaveK]

Well I'll make it simple for you Dave, if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH. 

And if I do, and get a picture through the post a few days later saying I was doing 36?

You may be able to recall your exact speed for every mile you drive, but I've done 20,000 miles so far this year!

But this was about Paul's thread where he said that he was, so where's the argument there?

You've lost me. You were talking about the lack ambiguity in the law, and then helpfully advised me that sticking to the speed limit would be fine.

I gave you a scenario where that doesn't apply, as supposedly in about 30% of cases in the UK.

The argument (if that's what you want to call it), is that you seem to think the system is flawless ("if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH.") and I think you're being very naive.

[Benner]

What I was saying was that Paul said he was speeding and then got caught.  If you look back you saw that as a suitable excuse to call police "fascist b*****ds" because he was caught for doing something which he knew was illegal.  If there was some ambiguity in what he said then I could see the frustration, but there wasn't.  Now I know I'm only, as you said yourself, naive, but that is a perfect example of the "cut and shut" example that I stated above.

[DaveK]

What I was saying was that Paul said he was speeding and then got caught.  If you look back you saw that as a suitable excuse to call police "fascist b*****ds" because he was caught for doing something which he knew was illegal.  If there was some ambiguity in what he said then I could see the frustration, but there wasn't.  Now I know I'm only, as you said yourself, naive, but that is a perfect example of the "cut and shut" example that I stated above.

OK, I know you don't really need me to do this, but:

1. The "fascist b******s" statement wasn't exactly serious, and I'd be amazed if you didn't realise that;
2. The conversation had long moved away from Paul's comment, onto the wider subject of "safety" cameras and the legitimacy of them. You could argue that we'd drifted slightly off topic, but I think that would be a first around here!

[Benner]

Firstly, most of us use emoticons to express opinions and you used nothing so anyone could have taken that any way.  May I suggest using something to show you're joking in the future, especially if it is about the old bill. 

Secondly, I was personally talking about Paul, and if you look back my whole 30MPH comment had a  after it, so I'm surprised that you didn't know I was joking. 

[DaveK]

....I was personally talking about Paul, and if you look back my whole 30MPH comment had a  after it, so I'm surprised that you didn't know I was joking. 

No you weren't:

I agree, it is a bit sneaky at times but you know what there is a very very simple way of avoiding all those problems.  Just don't speed.  It really is that simple.  If you speed and get caught then you have accepted to take that gamble and should accept the consequences. 

Well I'll make it simple for you Dave, if you see a sign with a big 30 in the middle of it, you can only do up to 30 MPH. 

Does the use of the emoticon here mean that you believe the afore-mentioned is always the case in a faultless system, or not 

...most of us use emoticons to express opinions and you used nothing so anyone could have taken that any way.  May I suggest using something to show you're joking in the future, especially if it is about the old bill. 

I would have thought that having met me in the real world a couple of times, in addition to knowing each other through this forum, that there was no way that you could have thought I wasn't joking. But if you need a small yellow picture - it's no bother

[Benner]

Oh dear.    Think what you like mate, makes no difference to me and I'm getting bored with repeating myself.

[Mr. Whippy]

I would have thought that having met me in the real world a couple of times, in addition to knowing each other through this forum, that there was no way that you could have thought I wasn't joking. But if you need a small yellow picture - it's no bother

That's rather jaundiced.  

[Benner]