The Good Times May Be Coming To An End

[1jump2many]

It won't stop me from buying anymore SAK's, but I sure won't be buying as many.  They are shooting themselves in the foot by implementing this policy.  Maybe they will have a change of heart once their sales do down?   

1Jump2Many

[gadgetman7]

Regardless of what I said if I see a really interesting model I'll probably still but it and from Tim. It means though that my gift giving will be primarily Leatherman. Does anyone know how to do one of those on line petitions? Might not help but I would feel better. 

[Mr. Whippy]

I just sent them an email via their website.  We'll see if I get a reply.

Any specific contacts we should know?

[WhichDawg]

I'm sorry they are doing this. In this economy/time, this doesn't help anybody, sounds like greed at the least.

People like Tim get the SAK word out, people buy more because of his prices and great service.
This leaves a bad Victorinox taste in my mouth and it won't make sales better.

I support FVEAP

[max6166]

I am still confused about exactly what this means. They are mandating that distributors list a specific advertised price, but technically the dealer can still sell the item at any price he/she wants?  

So the problem is how to let people know you are selling at a different price than the advertised one, without violating Vic's terms, no?

Surely, we can come up with a way around this using the combined SAK brainpower here.  

Hmmm.... Can a dealer perhaps auction a SAK at a price lower than the MAP? We do have a new auction site...

At the very least, can't people email for a quote?

What if a non-dealer bought a bulk order from a dealer and then resold the items at any price they wanted on another site?

At the very least, I am sure Amazon and it's sellers will find a way around this.

[Benner]

Won't really effect me as I don't do new, but it still sucks. 

[stressmaster5000]

I wonder what prompted this change 

Probably all the Vic dealers selling on eBay that allow such things as a $495 MSRP Heritage knife to be discounted by 30-40%.  I do believe that the retail selling on a discount auction website like eBay and general internet websites has probably caused more damage to the public opinion of what the retail value is.

[jzmtl]

You know, I can't help but thinking vic is trying to move up in market.

A while ago I posted a thread on how vic bags and clothing are friggin expensive, easily 2x or 3x of other brands with comparable quality. Someone mentioned that they are shooting for a higher market, which I said I hope they won't do that with SAK.

Well looks like they are doing it now, all the other "premier" brand does MAP, so why not them? Higher price must mean higher quality and prestige, right?

Urg, very much not happy about this... 

[american lockpicker]

This really will affect me as I only buy new.

[Screwtape]

Hmmmm, I was thinkning about a ferw new SAK but have been putting it off this might be the excuse to go out and get them before I can't afford em.

Possibly a niave question but is this a USA thing or worldwide?

[Mr. Whippy]

Just contacted Victorinox North America.

They told me letters should be addressed to

VSA
7 Victoria Drive
Monroe, CT 06468

Attention Marketing.


Complaining on MT.O is fine, but formally complaining to the corporation may accomplish more.

[1jump2many]

Just contacted Victorinox North America.

They told me letters should be addressed to

VSA
7 Victoria Drive
Monroe, CT 06468

Attention Marketing.


Complaining on MT.O is fine, but formally complaining to the corporation may accomplish more.

I hope their Marketing department is better than the service department in Connecticut.  They "refurbished" a knife for me and I'm definitely not impressed.  At one point they called me to ask a question and on my caller ID it came up as a cellular number, not Victorinox.  While I was talking to the representative she kept referring to Ibach as Victorinox, almost as if they were a sub contractor or they were a separate entity.  I don't know what the deal is there but that is the feeling I got from Connecticut.  I will email Ibach directly via their Contact Form:  http://www.victorinox.ch/index.cfm?site=victorinox.ch&page=246&lang=E.


1Jump2many

[ufox9al]

How about this... 2 Sections on the Felinevet website: "New Victorinox" and "Like New Victorinox". For the SAK to be listed in the second section, Tim will open the box, take the SAK out, put it in his pocket, take one step left, one step right, take out of the pocket, and put it back in the box. Description will state "carried only once".

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

How about this... 2 Sections on the Felinevet website: "New Victorinox" and "Like New Victorinox". For the SAK to be listed in the second section, Tim will open the box, take the SAK out, put it in his pocket, take one step left, one step right, take out of the pocket, and put it back in the box. Description will state "carried only once".

That's inspired

[Neil]

How about this... 2 Sections on the Felinevet website: "New Victorinox" and "Like New Victorinox". For the SAK to be listed in the second section, Tim will open the box, take the SAK out, put it in his pocket, take one step left, one step right, take out of the pocket, and put it back in the box. Description will state "carried only once".

   Like it

[max6166]

How about this... 2 Sections on the Felinevet website: "New Victorinox" and "Like New Victorinox". For the SAK to be listed in the second section, Tim will open the box, take the SAK out, put it in his pocket, take one step left, one step right, take out of the pocket, and put it back in the box. Description will state "carried only once".

 

[Anthony]

How about this... 2 Sections on the Felinevet website: "New Victorinox" and "Like New Victorinox". For the SAK to be listed in the second section, Tim will open the box, take the SAK out, put it in his pocket, take one step left, one step right, take out of the pocket, and put it back in the box. Description will state "carried only once".

Good one!  

Or what if new knives are given as "gifts" for a certain amount of a "donation" to Tims Vet assistance program?  Tax deductable SAKS?!?!


I agree with Screwtape also...I might have to get that Electrician Plus before the price jumps up

[Neil]

Here was me hoping to grab a Workchamp XL, but I can't afford it until next month 

[max6166]

You know, I can't help but thinking vic is trying to move up in market.

A while ago I posted a thread on how vic bags and clothing are friggin expensive, easily 2x or 3x of other brands with comparable quality. Someone mentioned that they are shooting for a higher market, which I said I hope they won't do that with SAK.

Well looks like they are doing it now, all the other "premier" brand does MAP, so why not them? Higher price must mean higher quality and prestige, right?

They are doing exactly that. They have been advertising in all the fashion and prestige magazines right along with the designer labels for a few years now. This includes ads for SAKs and even the Spirit.

It's going to take a lot more than that to convince people that SAKs are high end items though...  

[jzmtl]

Urg, if that's what they are shooting for and leave their past loyal customers in the dust, I'm selling all mine and be done with them.

[ducktapehero]

Here's what I emailed them. If they're gonna be like this then I will join the boycott.

I was just notified by a Victorinox dealer about your new policy concerning pricing Swiss Army Knives and how you will terminate your relationship with any dealer who sells below the MAP (Minimum Advertised Price).

I am a VERY loyal user of your knives and multi-tools. I am also a member of SOSAK and multi-tool.org.

I am absolutely livid about this. Dealers selling them at whatever price has no bearing on your profits, what is the reason behind this?

The ONLY thing this will accomplish is lower sales for you. I for one will NOT be buying anything else from you until this is changed. I hate to do this, I need another Swisstool and a Super Tinker but I guess I will have to buy a Leatherman or something.

Shame on you, especially in this economy. Screwing over your customers is NOT a good business practice

[Grant Lamontagne]

While this is a pain in the bum, it's not the end of the world.  Vic is merely attempting to keep their products from being devalued- a process I might add, Leatherman has been doing for years.  In fact, a certain LM dealer that we all know and love has had issues in the past with Leatherman and their MAP price policy.

MAP or Minimum Advertised Pricing is basically a way to keep the products from being devalued.  If a product has an MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested List Price) of $50, the wholesale cost is usually about 50% of that- prices and percentages vary according to the the product in question, but in the knife world that's pretty accurate.  So, a dealer buys his stock of $25 knives and lists them in his B&M store for $45.99, below the MSRP- WOW, great deal!

The Internet Dealer X gets his shipment of $25 knives and lists them online for $39.99, which is reasonable because he doesn't have the overhead that the B&M dealer has.  This doesn't hurt the B&M dealer since it's worth the extra few bucks to have the item now.  Then another online dealer undercuts the first by offering the knife for $34.99, then another undercuts him by offering it for $33.50, then another for $30 and so on, until the knife that Victorinox (or Leatherman, or Gerber of SOG, Or Spyderco etc) says is "worth" $50 is now only "worth" $27.50.  That not only ruins the B&M dealer, but hurts the product in general, as now it seems like it's pretty cheap, and you aren't likely to get much for under $30....

Tim is an ethical dealer- if he wasn't, he wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't personally endorse him.  Unfortunately, there are guys out there that aren't, and a company like Victorinox (or Leatherman, or SOG, or Gerber etc) can't take the time to investigate each and every dealer and make a decision based on who is a "good dealer" and who isn't.  In fact, Victorinox doesn't want to do that, since they don't want to admit, suggest or even hint that some of their dealers may not be... hmmm... shall we say "representative of Swiss Quality."  So, they make a rule for everyone to follow and if you don't stick to it, they cut you off.

I still can't help but think that Tim is the best way to go with SAKs since you know that whatever price you get from him is the absolute best he an give you- and, the extra "profit" goes to support the kitties, which isn't a bad thing from where I sit.

Def

[Screwtape]

Here was me hoping to grab a Workchamp XL, but I can't afford it until next month 

I hate to say it but some time credit cards are there for a good reason, layover the cost this month any pay before the interest is added next.

Dear Lord I just recommend using a credit card  

[DaveK]

While this is a pain in the bum, it's not the end of the world.  Vic is merely attempting to keep their products from being devalued- a process I might add, Leatherman has been doing for years.  In fact, a certain LM dealer that we all know and love has had issues in the past with Leatherman and their MAP price policy.

MAP or Minimum Advertised Pricing is basically a way to keep the products from being devalued.  If a product has an MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested List Price) of $50, the wholesale cost is usually about 50% of that- prices and percentages vary according to the the product in question, but in the knife world that's pretty accurate.  So, a dealer buys his stock of $25 knives and lists them in his B&M store for $45.99, below the MSRP- WOW, great deal!

The Internet Dealer X gets his shipment of $25 knives and lists them online for $39.99, which is reasonable because he doesn't have the overhead that the B&M dealer has.  This doesn't hurt the B&M dealer since it's worth the extra few bucks to have the item now.  Then another online dealer undercuts the first by offering the knife for $34.99, then another undercuts him by offering it for $33.50, then another for $30 and so on, until the knife that Victorinox (or Leatherman, or Gerber of SOG, Or Spyderco etc) says is "worth" $50 is now only "worth" $27.50.  That not only ruins the B&M dealer, but hurts the product in general, as now it seems like it's pretty cheap, and you aren't likely to get much for under $30....

Tim is an ethical dealer- if he wasn't, he wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't personally endorse him.  Unfortunately, there are guys out there that aren't, and a company like Victorinox (or Leatherman, or SOG, or Gerber etc) can't take the time to investigate each and every dealer and make a decision based on who is a "good dealer" and who isn't.  In fact, Victorinox doesn't want to do that, since they don't want to admit, suggest or even hint that some of their dealers may not be... hmmm... shall we say "representative of Swiss Quality."  So, they make a rule for everyone to follow and if you don't stick to it, they cut you off.

I still can't help but think that Tim is the best way to go with SAKs since you know that whatever price you get from him is the absolute best he an give you- and, the extra "profit" goes to support the kitties, which isn't a bad thing from where I sit.

Def

I've been watching this thread with interest, and agree with every word Def says here. It may be easier to take for us Brits as this is the norm over here, and I think throughout Europe.

That said, it does seem to contradict the basic principles of capitalism, and anything that forces sellers to inflate their profits over and above what they consider to be a fair and reasonable price is fundamentally wrong in my view. What ever happened to supply and demand?

I personally do take some comfort from the fact that Tim will at least be putting any extra profits to a great cause, and won't be simply lining his pockets! I'm not a huge buyer of Vic stuff, but I'll make sure that anything I do buy will go to Tim now on principle!

I also agree that Leatherman are amongst the worst for this.

[stressmaster5000]

While this is a pain in the bum, it's not the end of the world.  Vic is merely attempting to keep their products from being devalued- a process I might add, Leatherman has been doing for years.  In fact, a certain LM dealer that we all know and love has had issues in the past with Leatherman and their MAP price policy.

MAP or Minimum Advertised Pricing is basically a way to keep the products from being devalued.  If a product has an MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested List Price) of $50, the wholesale cost is usually about 50% of that- prices and percentages vary according to the the product in question, but in the knife world that's pretty accurate.  So, a dealer buys his stock of $25 knives and lists them in his B&M store for $45.99, below the MSRP- WOW, great deal!

The Internet Dealer X gets his shipment of $25 knives and lists them online for $39.99, which is reasonable because he doesn't have the overhead that the B&M dealer has.  This doesn't hurt the B&M dealer since it's worth the extra few bucks to have the item now.  Then another online dealer undercuts the first by offering the knife for $34.99, then another undercuts him by offering it for $33.50, then another for $30 and so on, until the knife that Victorinox (or Leatherman, or Gerber of SOG, Or Spyderco etc) says is "worth" $50 is now only "worth" $27.50.  That not only ruins the B&M dealer, but hurts the product in general, as now it seems like it's pretty cheap, and you aren't likely to get much for under $30....

Tim is an ethical dealer- if he wasn't, he wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't personally endorse him.  Unfortunately, there are guys out there that aren't, and a company like Victorinox (or Leatherman, or SOG, or Gerber etc) can't take the time to investigate each and every dealer and make a decision based on who is a "good dealer" and who isn't.  In fact, Victorinox doesn't want to do that, since they don't want to admit, suggest or even hint that some of their dealers may not be... hmmm... shall we say "representative of Swiss Quality."  So, they make a rule for everyone to follow and if you don't stick to it, they cut you off.

I still can't help but think that Tim is the best way to go with SAKs since you know that whatever price you get from him is the absolute best he an give you- and, the extra "profit" goes to support the kitties, which isn't a bad thing from where I sit.

Def

Your words are well put and on target. Everyone needs to chill-lax and realize that the product's quality and collectability is what drew us to buying these tools and also to this website. Ever notice there are no CAK(Chinese made army knife) website enthusiasts or forums to tout their praise?

[gadgetman7]

I'm not sure Leatherman's policy is the same. For example, Amazon has a button to show the price because they can't show it directly. That's true for Benchmade Knives as well. Even so, I don't like the policy and I think it's illegal in the US regardless of what the courts say.

I do wonder how they can enforce it though. Suppose you buy from a distributor like Monteng and then resell. You have no relationship with Victorinox.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yes, Leatherman's policy is the same.  There may be some slight changes in the details, but the policy is there, and I have seen them take action against a dealer that broke the MAP agreement.

Def

[Ben X]

Yeah, they beat me to it, I was going to suggest slicing a sheet of printer paper and calling it lightly used and like new, but "carried once" may be a touch better than my idea . As for the pricing it sounds like a very tricky situation, but maybe if our attempts at swaying them now don't succeed, then their bottom line will make our point for us. I understand their dilemma as described by Def, but I tend to side a little more with Duct Tape Hero, as long as they are making their money, what do they care about individual dealer profits? Sure, online dealers selling rock bottom have perhaps been detrimental to B&M retailers (my local Wal Mart is down to Classics I believe), but following Leatherman's approach won't bring me out to buy new either. For all the new Victorinox knives I bought at the turn of the millennium, I never bought a single Leatherman. Why? Too expensive.

This will more than ever widen the gap between cheap knock offs and genuine articles as well, increasing the sales of the inferior goods with ignorant first time buyers. Or, worse, it will legitimize even greater profit margins on the inferior goods. Seems lose-lose for everyone really.

[Neil]

Here was me hoping to grab a Workchamp XL, but I can't afford it until next month 

I hate to say it but some time credit cards are there for a good reason, layover the cost this month any pay before the interest is added next.

Dear Lord I just recommend using a credit card  

I did that once in order not to miss a unique opportunity on a rather expensive SAK and I'm still feeling the guilt   

Easier now though as I can't use a credit card to fund my purchases.

Time to sell an organ

[Screwtape]

Here was me hoping to grab a Workchamp XL, but I can't afford it until next month 

I hate to say it but some time credit cards are there for a good reason, layover the cost this month any pay before the interest is added next.

Dear Lord I just recommend using a credit card 

I did that once in order not to miss a unique opportunity on a rather expensive SAK and I'm still feeling the guilt   

Easier now though as I can't use a credit card to fund my purchases.

Time to sell an organ

Please no more details.......