Cub scouts....you gotta watch out for them.

[Zack]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?no_interstitial

all I can say is wow.

[J-sews]

Oh good lord.

And did you catch the backhanded reference to the old threat of "it could put an eye out"?

[Chako]

Rather cliché isn't it?

[Freudian Frog]

Well he did bring an actual hobo knife... I have to blame this on bad parenting, really. I mean, we all know it's zero tolerance right? As for the girl getting a knife from her grandma's cake, not really her fault.

[Chako]

Zero tolerance is hogwash. You have to have common sense and discretion. The issue is that there is no check and balance. Everyone is guilty. It is a stupid way to run things.

[Freudian Frog]

Zero tolerance is hogwash. You have to have common sense and discretion. The issue is that there is no check and balance. Everyone is guilty. It is a stupid way to run things.

Of course it's hogwash... but it's there and everyone knows it. I just don't think a mother should be letting her six year old play with a knife in school when he's just learning about saftey.

Especially when you should know it's against the rules already.

I usually carry a knife though my school disallows 'em. *shrugs*
But I also don't pull it out at the dining hall... or play with it during class...


Okay, so I've done both on occasion.

[Sazabi]

Zero tolerance is hogwash. You have to have common sense and discretion. The issue is that there is no check and balance. Everyone is guilty. It is a stupid way to run things.

Of course it's hogwash... but it's there and everyone knows it. I just don't think a mother should be letting her six year old play with a knife in school when he's just learning about saftey.

Especially when you should know it's against the rules already.

I usually carry a knife though my school disallows 'em. *shrugs*
But I also don't pull it out at the dining hall... or play with it during class...


Okay, so I've done both on occasion.

Your university bans knives? o.O

For us, they just have to be under five inches, and I'm in a /large/ urbanized city. XD

[Freudian Frog]

Zero tolerance is hogwash. You have to have common sense and discretion. The issue is that there is no check and balance. Everyone is guilty. It is a stupid way to run things.

Of course it's hogwash... but it's there and everyone knows it. I just don't think a mother should be letting her six year old play with a knife in school when he's just learning about saftey.

Especially when you should know it's against the rules already.

I usually carry a knife though my school disallows 'em. *shrugs*
But I also don't pull it out at the dining hall... or play with it during class...


Okay, so I've done both on occasion.

Your university bans knives? o.O

For us, they just have to be under five inches, and I'm in a /large/ urbanized city. XD

They ban anything considered a "weapon". Probably includes sharpened sticks...

But I've seen university police less than five times anyway... so... XD

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Welcome to our world

[Gareth]

It's a perfect example of why zero-tolerance policies don't work, as Chako said they leave no room for common sense.  The other extreme option is to have each and every single case judged on the individual circumstances, the problem with that is that you have to have total faith in the person deciding on the punishment.  Much better perhaps but still not without issues.

BTW I got the feeling that his parents didn't know that he had taken it into school, but I could be wrong.

[Whoey]

Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds.

See this is why they never should have allowed semi/automatic firearms on school grounds in the first place... 

In the 2005-6 school year, 86 percent of public schools reported at least one violent crime, theft or other crime

What I want to know is, how many of those violent crimes involved a stabbing in the eye with a pocket knife. 

[turbov21]

In fairness, that weapon did represent a clear and present danger to his lunch.

[Mr. Whippy]

It's a perfect example of why zero-tolerance policies don't work, as Chako said they leave no room for common sense.  The other extreme option is to have each and every single case judged on the individual circumstances, the problem with that is that you have to have total faith in the person deciding on the punishment.  Much better perhaps but still not without issues.

BTW I got the feeling that his parents didn't know that he had taken it into school, but I could be wrong.

Correct.  There's a video of an interview with the family on MSNBC (Today show segment).  The youngster is quite the little pip-squeak!

[AHB]

Maybe the punishment is a little hard, but I would contact just about every person in charge, if my daughter came and told me the boys in her class
carried knives to school. Then I really don't care what kind of knife it is.. And it is the parents responsibility to know where Junior's knife is at all time..

[Screwtape]

Might I just say that I believe that education not punishment is the propper thing to do for those young enough to need guidance

[Mr. Whippy]

Maybe the punishment is a little hard, but I would contact just about every person in charge, if my daughter came and told me the boys in her class
carried knives to school. Then I really don't care what kind of knife it is.. And it is the parents responsibility to know where Junior's knife is at all time..

Cultural differences I suspect...

When I was growing up, many of us carried pocket knives to school.  Only time we'd get in trouble was if we were caught playing mumbly-peg or carving on school property.  Heck, in 7th grade, there was a whittling/carving club for a while.  

However, times do change, and I can understand a policy prohibiting knives at school.  Just a sad development, imo.

[AHB]

Maybe the punishment is a little hard, but I would contact just about every person in charge, if my daughter came and told me the boys in her class
carried knives to school. Then I really don't care what kind of knife it is.. And it is the parents responsibility to know where Junior's knife is at all time..

Cultural differences I suspect...

When I was growing up, many of us carried pocket knives to school.  Only time we'd get in trouble was if we were caught playing mumbly-peg or carving on school property.  Heck, in 7th grade, there was a whittling/carving club for a while.  

However, times do change, and I can understand a policy prohibiting knives at school.  Just a sad development, imo.

Don't get me wrong, I also carried my cheap pocketknife with me sometimes as a kid, but accidents do happen and not all parents are as responsible regarding proper education as alot of us are... But I still think, that knives doesn't belong in school..

[ducktapehero]

I'm sorry but banning knives at school has the same effect as banning weapons in the adult world. The only ones affected are the ones who aren't planning to harm anyone. But regardless, it doesn't hurt to have that policy given that there's that there's a common sense approach to it. Let's use a little discretion here. It was a camping knife, NOT a large fixed blade knife meant for dispatching enemies. And yes, there IS a difference. I'm sorry but this no tolerance crap is asinine.  There has to be some leeway for different situations. A good kid bringing a Swiss Army Knife is completely different than a known troublemaker bringing a Marine KA-Bar and threatening others.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

[AHB]

I'm sorry but banning knives at school has the same effect as banning weapons in the adult world. The only ones affected are the ones who aren't planning to harm anyone. But regardless, it doesn't hurt to have that policy given that there's that there's a common sense approach to it. Let's use a little discretion here. It was a camping knife, NOT a large fixed blade knife meant for dispatching enemies. And yes, there IS a difference. I'm sorry but this no tolerance crap is asinine.  There has to be some leeway for different situations. A good kid bringing a Swiss Army Knife is completely different than a known troublemaker bringing a Marine KA-Bar and threatening others.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

I wrote: "Maybe the punishment is a little hard..." But actually I don't care what kind of knife it is, kids do stupid things and even a dull butterknife can do damage... Again the parents shouldn't allow this to happen (especially when there's zero-tolerance) and in light of that it only seems fair with the same punishment for all.. What if the good kid brought the Marine KA-Bar to school..? In the real world a person doesn't get less punishment, just being "a little drunk" while driving...  
Just my 2 cents.. * Takes his coat *

[Mr. Whippy]

I'm sorry but banning knives at school has the same effect as banning weapons in the adult world. The only ones affected are the ones who aren't planning to harm anyone. But regardless, it doesn't hurt to have that policy given that there's that there's a common sense approach to it. Let's use a little discretion here. It was a camping knife, NOT a large fixed blade knife meant for dispatching enemies. And yes, there IS a difference. I'm sorry but this no tolerance crap is asinine.  There has to be some leeway for different situations. A good kid bringing a Swiss Army Knife is completely different than a known troublemaker bringing a Marine KA-Bar and threatening others.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

I wrote: "Maybe the punishment is a little hard..." But actually I don't care what kind of knife it is, kids do stupid things and even a dull butterknife can do damage... Again the parents shouldn't allow this to happen (especially when there's zero-tolerance) and in light of that it only seems fair with the same punishment for all.. What if the good kid brought a Marine KA-Bar to school..? In the real world a person doesn't get less punishment, just being "a little drunk" while driving... 
Just my 2 cents.. * Takes his coat *

...and I would have to disagree with this approach.  An unthinking moment by the parents should not be met with an unthinking response by society.  The world is not a binary state.  It's not even digital.  It is analog and therefore responses should be able to have infinite and continuous points between 0 and 1. (No punishment-Maximum punishment).

jmo

[AHB]

I wrote: "Maybe the punishment is a little hard..." But actually I don't care what kind of knife it is, kids do stupid things and even a dull butterknife can do damage... Again the parents shouldn't allow this to happen (especially when there's zero-tolerance) and in light of that it only seems fair with the same punishment for all.. What if the good kid brought a Marine KA-Bar to school..? In the real world a person doesn't get less punishment, just being "a little drunk" while driving... 
Just my 2 cents.. * Takes his coat *

...and I would have to disagree with this approach.  An unthinking moment by the parents should not be met with an unthinking response by society.  The world is not a binary state.  It's not even digital.  It is analog and therefore responses should be able to have infinite and continuous points between 0 and 1. (No punishment-Maximum punishment).

jmo

I know the world isn't black and white, but there is zero-tolerance, even if we like it or not. Why dosen't the parents take the gear from 6 year old Junior when he's finished "scouting" and put them away until next time.? With the knifelaws we have here in Denmark, I could actually go to jail if I forgot to let my stanley knife stay at work.. That's unfair, but we all know what happens if we break the law.. (well, the knifelaw is tried at supreme court atm, so I'm following this very closely.)

[Mr. Whippy]

I wrote: "Maybe the punishment is a little hard..." But actually I don't care what kind of knife it is, kids do stupid things and even a dull butterknife can do damage... Again the parents shouldn't allow this to happen (especially when there's zero-tolerance) and in light of that it only seems fair with the same punishment for all.. What if the good kid brought a Marine KA-Bar to school..? In the real world a person doesn't get less punishment, just being "a little drunk" while driving... 
Just my 2 cents.. * Takes his coat *

...and I would have to disagree with this approach.  An unthinking moment by the parents should not be met with an unthinking response by society.  The world is not a binary state.  It's not even digital.  It is analog and therefore responses should be able to have infinite and continuous points between 0 and 1. (No punishment-Maximum punishment).

jmo

I know the world isn't black and white, but there is zero-tolerance, even if we like it or not. Why dosen't the parents take the gear from 6 year old Junior when he's finished "scouting" and put them away until next time.? With the knifelaws we have here in Denmark, I could actually go to jail if I forgot to let my stanley knife stay at work.. That's unfair, but we all know what happens if we break the law.. (well, the knifelaw is tried at supreme court atm, so I'm following this very closely.)

Again, I think this is a cultural difference.

In the US, knives are viewed very differently.  They are tools, like any other.  My children have been allowed to carry screwdrivers and pliers when they were old enough to use them correctly.  Same is true for a knife.  My son had a pocket knife by age 7 for sure, may have been earlier.  My daughter had her own tool box at age 7.

This has caused such a stir here, because the school's response is viewed as so disproportionate to the infraction.  Most here believe the knife confiscated, the parents called, the child counselled about knives at school, the parents counselled as well AND if there is concern on the school's part, Children's Protective Services called (not as a knee jerk response), a memo read to the students regarding the policy regarding knives at school and possibly a couple days' suspension.

At that point the knife may or may not be returned (again discretion applied). 

However, I do understand that other societies have a much greater expectation that social structures should protect citizens more aggressively.  I'm just glad I don't live with that. 

[AHB]

I know the world isn't black and white, but there is zero-tolerance, even if we like it or not. Why dosen't the parents take the gear from 6 year old Junior when he's finished "scouting" and put them away until next time.? With the knifelaws we have here in Denmark, I could actually go to jail if I forgot to let my stanley knife stay at work.. That's unfair, but we all know what happens if we break the law.. (well, the knifelaw is tried at supreme court atm, so I'm following this very closely.)

Again, I think this is a cultural difference.

In the US, knives are viewed very differently.  They are tools, like any other.  My children have been allowed to carry screwdrivers and pliers when they were old enough to use them correctly.  Same is true for a knife.  My son had a pocket knife by age 7 for sure, may have been earlier.  My daughter had her own tool box at age 7.

This has caused such a stir here, because the school's response is viewed as so disproportionate to the infraction.  Most here believe the knife confiscated, the parents called, the child counselled about knives at school, the parents counselled as well AND if there is concern on the school's part, Children's Protective Services called (not as a knee jerk response), a memo read to the students regarding the policy regarding knives at school and possibly a couple days' suspension.

At that point the knife may or may not be returned (again discretion applied). 

However, I do understand that other societies have a much greater expectation that social structures should protect citizens more aggressively.  I'm just glad I don't live with that. 

You said the magic word..: "use them correctly"    I would have no trouble at all letting my 9 year old daughter carry her "First Vic" at all time, because I know she would use it with proper caution, but sadly there's parents paying less attention to their kids doings. So for me it's all right that none of them is allowed to bring knives to school.. (I don't even know what the response from the school would be, we haven't had any incidents I know of) 

[ducktapehero]

I don't have a problem with a kid being able to bring a knife to school. I carried a pocket knife in my pocket from 3rd grade on. I never had a problem. These no tolerance laws have no effect on stopping crime. If a kid wants to bring a knife to hurt someone then do you think that the rules are going to stop him? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

All these stupid rules do is to make it look like the school system is doing something. But, if the school wants to ban knives then make it where the school principal can make the punishment fit the crime. If it is clearly a case where no harm was intended and the knife wasn't used as a weapon then let's not overreact. Set him down, talk to him and explain that he can't do it. If he's a cub scout I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't ever have worry about it again. Now if it was being used as a weapon then I don't think you'd have too many people saying you're wrong for the stiff punishment.

In the real world a person doesn't get less punishment,

Wrong, imagine you're speeding. You're doing 75 in a 70. How would you feel if now they had a blanket punishment for speeders and it was a $10,000 fine and loss of drivers privileges for 5 years. The same punishment that used to be reserved for the worst driving offenders. Do you like this "blanket policy"? IMHO it's kinda stupid, ain't it?


If the schools want to have a "no knife" policy then fine, I can stomach that but to have only 1 blanket punishment if you break the rule is counter productive. If it's a matter like this then this kid is going to learn to distrust authority and fear it, instead of respecting it believing it to be fair.

[NutSAK]

I'm sorry but banning knives at school has the same effect as banning weapons in the adult world. The only ones affected are the ones who aren't planning to harm anyone. But regardless, it doesn't hurt to have that policy given that there's that there's a common sense approach to it. Let's use a little discretion here. It was a camping knife, NOT a large fixed blade knife meant for dispatching enemies. And yes, there IS a difference. I'm sorry but this no tolerance crap is asinine.  There has to be some leeway for different situations. A good kid bringing a Swiss Army Knife is completely different than a known troublemaker bringing a Marine KA-Bar and threatening others.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

Hear, hear! 

Zero tolerance, in this case, is a lazy solution.  It is a product of political correctness and the nanny state.  It is foolish to take away the rights of all because of the actions of the few.

[NutSAK]

If the schools want to have a "no knife" policy then fine, I can stomach that but to have only 1 blanket punishment if you break the rule is counter productive. If it's a matter like this then this kid is going to learn to distrust authority and fear it, instead of respecting it believing it to be fair.

Well said again, DTH.  I've seen the interview with this young child, and his intentions seem to have been completely innocent.  Yes, this could be because of a lack of instruction from his parents, but he nor his parents deserve the same punishment as the kid who takes the KA-Bar to school with negative intentions...

The poor kid got a new multi tool and wanted to use it for its intended purposes. 

[AHB]

If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

Not THIS one..?   


My opinion is solely regading the parenting issue and not that poor kids intentions, so I hear what you're saying,
and I know when I'm outnumbered... 

[NutSAK]

I agree with you about the parenting, and that it is the root of the issue.  However, on one hand, parenting can't be monitored and, on the other, even a 6-year old kid has a mind of his own and will do things regardless of his parenting and beyond parental control.  But, IMO, that lack of control should not force us into equal punishment for unequal "crime".  Some common sense must prevail.

[cgk]

Without posting an opinion, let me throw this into the mix.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,565520,00.html

[Freudian Frog]

Without posting an opinion, let me throw this into the mix.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,565520,00.html

Okay, now that one is utter bullcrock.