Evolution of Wood Saws on 91mm Victorinox SAKs

[MiniChamp]

Great thread...great photos and excellent information. I enjoyed it a lot. 

Thanks! 

[MiniChamp]

An interesting Victorinox SAK was sold on eBay about a month ago and can be seen in the attached image. It's a model 237 with fiber scales that I believe to be from the early 1930's (or mid-1930's). What makes this SAK extremely interesting in the context of this thread is that it has a wood saw with 29 teeth. (While it's hard to be sure without access to the actual SAK, I believe that this saw fits the above introduced system of type designations as being of type SN29ALSP.) Before seeing this SAK, I have only seen wood saws with 27 teeth on pre-1950's 90mm Victorinox SAKs, so this is very unusual (and also unexpected) from my perspective. Has anyone seen such saws with 29 teeth on other pre-1950's Victorinox SAKs?

It should be pointed out that there is also another thing that makes this SAK interesting: it has a cap-lifter along with the slanted JNOXYD tang stamp (j2 stamp in Ulli's table). In my limited experience, this is relatively uncommon (since most SAKs with the slanted JNOXYD tang stamp have the older screw driver without a cap-lifter) and suggests that this SAK may be among the earliest Victorinox SAKs with a cap-lifter. For this reason, images of this SAK were already posted in another thread by Jnoxyd.

[kamakiri]

I recently managed to obtain SAKs with two types of wood saws that were previously missing (the April 2018 version of the table had place holders for these types, but no images). I am thus posting an updated table.

Excellent thread!  Been following it since I was lurking.

I've found a variant of the 29 tooth that fits between these two:


From a Late '50s/pre-'61 Woodsman 236U:


Teeth are machined like the SW29ARSP, but no nail nick like the SW29ARNP and has a polished finish. Tang stamps are VSSR/VOS. Bird head spacer is aluminum. Shackle is the 'flat' style.

-----

While I'm in here...I also think the change for the two symmetrical teeth types happens c. '78/'79, based on my CAMPING and Hoffritz inlay study, where the bulk of samples have wood saws.  All the knives I can positively put in the c. '80 range already have the new saw and have a fairly even sample from the '78/'79 range so I'm fairly sure the transition happens there and likely in the middle, late '78 to early-mid '79. Confirmed by samples of late 'V1' Hoffritz inlays, where the old style may have been in a 'disposal' phase and already off from main line use. Also confirmed after plastic tweezer head transition c. '78.

[MiniChamp]

Excellent thread!  Been following it since I was lurking.

Thanks! 

I've found a variant of the 29 tooth that fits between these two:
(Image removed from quote.)

From a Late '50s/pre-'61 Woodsman 236U:
(Image removed from quote.)

Teeth are machined like the SW29ARSP, but no nail nick like the SW29ARNP and has a polished finish. Tang stamps are VSSR/VOS. Bird head spacer is aluminum. Shackle is the 'flat' style.

Thanks for sharing this information. If I understand correctly, the saw that you show has all the features that makes it what I call a saw of type SW29ARNP. Hence, this is what I call it. There are always some production variations in the sizes of teeth and some other length parameters. Older SAKs tend to have bigger variations. As an example, the first attached image shows two saws of type SN27ALSP with some easy to see differences between them. They are both on SAKs that may be from the 1920's or early 1930's (stainless with fiber scales and screw drivers without cap-lifters). I consider them to be different production variations of the same basic type (SN27ALSP).

By the late 1950's the variations are smaller, but seem to still be noticeable. The second attached image, for example, shows a saw of type SW29ARNP with teeth that are smaller than the teeth on the type SW29ARNP saw in my above table. (It's on a SAK that has the older style big awl along with a NS spacer and a bail of the latest style). The saw that you show seems to me like a variation in the other direction (bigger teeth). I consider all three of them to be production variations of the basic type SW29ARNP.

Note that as far as I can tell, it's not impossible that the first generation of type SW29ARNP saws had bigger teeth in a way that may be used to characterize a legitimate sub-type. In order for me personally to adopt such a view, however, I would need to see convincing evidence that the various saws of type SW29ARNP can be unambiguously divided into two types (this would likely require looking at many samples and verifying that the variations within each sub-type are small in comparison to the differences between the sub-types) and that the type with the bigger teeth really came before the other one. Since I'm not aware of such evidence at this time, I consider all of the saws with features that make them qualify as type SW29ARNP to be of the same type and I interpret differences between them as production variations.

While I'm in here...I also think the change for the two symmetrical teeth types happens c. '78/'79, based on my CAMPING and Hoffritz inlay study, where the bulk of samples have wood saws.  All the knives I can positively put in the c. '80 range already have the new saw and have a fairly even sample from the '78/'79 range so I'm fairly sure the transition happens there and likely in the middle, late '78 to early-mid '79. Confirmed by samples of late 'V1' Hoffritz inlays, where the old style may have been in a 'disposal' phase and already off from main line use. Also confirmed after plastic tweezer head transition c. '78.

Thanks for sharing your findings. In essence, they seem to be consistent with my own observations. While it's probably not really meaningful to date such a transition with great precision (these things take time and may involve somewhat different times for different models), it's certainly convenient to be able to assign to it a concrete year. The practical question then becomes: which year is most suitable? I tend to agree that 1979 is likely to be the most suitable.

[MiniChamp]

I recently managed to obtain a (pre-1923) carbon steel model 236. Hence, I now have a SAK with a narrow-form left-weighted saw that is made of carbon steel and has 27 asymmetric teeth and a standard nail nick. I was thus able to remove the last place holder from the previous version of the table and complete it.    Due to corrosion, I cannot tell what was the original finish of this carbon steel saw (it may have been polished, once upon a time, but I cannot really know this now). Hence, I'm calling this saw type CN27ALS?, where the question mark indicates not knowing what was the original finish. The resulting completed table is in the first attached image. Unfortunately, I couldn't really attach the table that I prepared with the same resolution as before, because it seems that the maximal allowed size of attachments here was recently reduced by 50% to 512KB. (Why? It really sucks.) Hence, I'm attaching a shrunken version.

This completion of the previous table is far from being the end of story, however. As already noted above, there seem to exist 90mm Victorinox SAKs from the early 1930's with saws that have 29 teeth. In fact, I recently witnessed another such SAK getting sold on eBay. It is shown in the second attached image. On top of this, as already noted in the opening post of this thread, the upper SAK in the third image of this post (WARNING: it's a picture-heavy link) on Couteaux du monde looks like a very early (carbon steel) Victorinox SAK with a right-weighted saw. Hence, I expect that there should be at least one more type of a carbon steel saw (a right-weighted one; mine is left-weighted like the ones on most pre-1940 Victorinox SAKs). In other words, I expect that there are at least two more types of saws that should be in my table, but are not there yet. C'est la vie.

[MiniChamp]

Since the 512KB size restriction on attachments seems to be here to stay, I'm attaching a slightly better version of the table within this constraint. This one has the original pixel dimensions and achieves it's size reduction by lowering the quality of the JPEG compression.

It looks to me like a good time to list my current estimates for the time ranges when each of the different saw variants was used by Victorinox. While some related discussions took place earlier in this thread, it has been mostly avoided so far. Note that it's relatively easy to establish that a certain tool variant was used sometime in the past (seeing some samples of it should usually suffice), but telling when this point in time actually was is MUCH harder. Hence, estimating these time ranges is tricky and prone to making mistakes. Anyway, the following list includes the 14 types of saws that are in my current table along with the best estimates (or guesstimates) that I can currently provide for the year ranges of when Victorinox used them.

• CN27ALS?: 1902 - 1923
• SN27ALSP: 1923 - 1930's
• SN27ALLP: late-1930's - 1945
• SN27ARLP: 1945 - 1950
• SN27ARSP: 1950 - 1951
• SW27ALSP: 1951 - 1954
• SW39ALSP: 1954 - 1955
• SW39ARSP: 1955 - 1957
• SW29ARSP: 1957 - 1959
• SW29ARSB: 1957 - 1961
• SW29ARNP: 1959 - 1963
• SW29ARNB: 1963 - 1966
• SW29SRNB: 1966 - 1979
• SW29SRNBn: since 1979

Remarks:

• These suggested year ranges are just estimates that may be quite wrong in some cases.  The art of SAK-dating is based on making a lot of assumptions (like assuming that certain core transitions took place in certain key years and assuming uniform transition times across different product lines). I believe that (at least to the most part) I'm making the same core assumptions that most other collectors also make, but some of these assumptions may be wrong.
• The pre-1940 era is very blurry for me. As noted above in this thread, there should be at least two more saw types from this era that are not yet in the list (there may very well be more; it's also possible that some saws qualifying as being of type SN27ARSP were used in this era). Also, I have no real basis for even guessing until when in the 1930's saws of type SN27ALSP were in use, etc.
• There is a reasonable chance (but not certainty!) that I managed to identify all of the post-1940 types and that my above suggested year ranges are correct up to an error margin of two years, say. This assumes, however, that Victorinox wasn't really making more than one type of saw at a time (except for the saws that were used on Elinox SAKs in some years). If this assumption is wrong, things may be more complicated.
• As far as I can tell, saws of Type SW29ARSB were used only on Elinox SAKs. Moreover, I believe that saws of type SW29ARNB were used on Elinox SAKs before they were used on the regular (Victoria) line (possibly since 1961 or even before). The suggested 1963 start year for saws of type SW29ARNB is for the regular line.

Any feedback on these guesstimates (or otherwise) will be greatly appreciated. If you think that you have some better estimates, please say so. If you think that you have grounds to confirm some of these estimates, please also say so. Thanks!

[jnoxyd]

Nice work, Minichamp! What about larger pictures, try to post them using Tapatalk application.
What tool will be next? Maybe Phillips on the back?

[zoidberg]

Or use the MTo gallery...

[MiniChamp]

Nice work, Minichamp!

Thanks! 

What about larger pictures, try to post them using Tapatalk application.

Relying on such external hosting services looks problematic from my perspective. If you go over some old threads here, you can see that such linked images tend to disappear over time. Attached images, on the other hand, seem to remain intact even when the OPs have not been seen here for years or are known to be deceased.

What tool will be next? Maybe Phillips on the back?

We'll see. Doing Wenger saws can be far more challenging. The 85mm line should be easy (4-5 types, I think), but the older 92mm line is a big mess. 

[MiniChamp]

Or use the MTo gallery...

I don't really know anything about that. Does it require opening a new account? If so, how can it be done? Can you provide a link to related usage instructions?

[zoidberg]

I don't really know anything about that. Does it require opening a new account? If so, how can it be done? Can you provide a link to related usage instructions?

Yes, just send Def a PM and he'll add you to the list of users.

[MiniChamp]

Yes, just send Def a PM and he'll add you to the list of users.

Thanks! 

[MiniChamp]

Or use the MTo gallery...

Thanks a lot for this advice Zoidberg.    Indeed, the MTO Gallery seems to work very nicely. Here is the last version of the table with the original quality straight from the Gallery:

[MiniChamp]

The pre-1940 era is very blurry for me. As noted above in this thread, there should be at least two more saw types from this era that are not yet in the list (there may very well be more;

Well, it didn't take long for yet another type of wood saw to emerge: earlier today, a model 237 that appears to be from around 1902 was sold on eBay. It is shown in the attached image and has also been discussed on another thread. It has a saw with 23 teeth. This is the first time that I see a saw with this number of teeth on a 90mm/91mm Victorinox SAK.

[kamakiri]

Well, it didn't take long for yet another type of wood saw to emerge: earlier today, a model 237 that appears to be from around 1902 was sold on eBay. It is shown in the attached image and has also been discussed on another thread. It has a saw with 23 teeth. This is the first time that I see a saw with this number of teeth on a 90mm/91mm Victorinox SAK.

 

Would be nice if the winner is here and could get you better pics for your list.

[MiniChamp]

Would be nice if the winner is here and could get you better pics for your list.

Indeed! Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea who that winner is. 

[wengercollector]

Indeed! Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea who that winner is. 

I guess its dave arnold / hobie. When he is up for a rare vintage knife, there s no limit.

[MiniChamp]

I guess its dave arnold / hobie.

Unfortunately, it wasn't any of them, so it seems unlikely that we will be seeing this SAK featured in a nice Hobie video. Dave Arnold was actually one of the bidders, but (to my surprise) he didn't win. 

[MiniChamp]

As it has been just over a year since the last activity on this thread, I think that it may be worthwhile to give an update. Since I recently obtained an early model 237 with a type CN27ALS? saw that looks a little better than the one that I previously used, I made a new version of the table. Here it is:




What else?

As I kept following online sales, my findings concerning the post-1940 era revealed nothing new. I did not discover any new types of saws from this era, nor did I find any reason to change my previous estimates concerning the periods of time when the various types of saws were produced.

For the pre-1940 era, however, things are a little different and keep getting more interesting. I recorded only 6 newly observed saws on 90mm SAKs from this era. Out of these, 4 were left-weighted saws with 27 teeth (like most of the saws from this era seem to be), but two were different and thus unusual from my perspective.

The first of them, which is shown in the first attached image, is an early (probably pre-1920) model 237 with a (left-weighted) saw that has 29 teeth. While the scales on this SAK don't look original to me, I don't find strong reason to suspect the authenticity of the rest (although, one never really knows; the possibility that this saw isn't really original exists).

The second unusual saw can be seen in the second attached image. This is something truly remarkable from my perspective. The model 237 with this saw appears to be really VERY early, as it has the markers of the very first officer knives (an auger-type corkscrew and a "Gesetzlich Geschützt" stamp on the screwdriver). The saw is unlike any other saw that I have seen before on a Victorinox 90mm/91mm SAK. It seems to be unweighted with 30 teeth. Moreover, the shape of the tang is very unusual. Its bottom is in an angle and doesn't line up with the edges of the teeth like in other saws on 90mm/91mm Victorinox SAKs. Very strange.

So what is the conclusion?

I believe that, so far, I can say the following about the pre-1940 era:

• It seems that most saws are left-weighted with 27 teeth.
• Some saws are nevertheless left-weighted with 29 teeth (three such saws were shown above in this thread).
• Some saws are nevertheless right-weighted with 27 teeth (I have seen two; One was shown above in this thread; a link to an image of the other was included in the opening post of this thread).
• For very early SAKs one can find some very different types of saws (23 teeth and 30 teeth were shown above in this thread).

If anyone can shed more light on any of that, please do! I will greatly appreciate it!

[MiniChamp]

A small update: I'm changing my estimate for the range of years when Victorinox used wood saws of type SN27ARLP to 1944-1949 (from 1945 - 1950). This is due to observing quite a few wood saws of this type on SAKs with the pre-1946 can opener, as well as observing quite a few saws with a standard nail nick (type SN27ARSP) on SAKs with the pre-1951 can opener.

It's now almost three years since this thread was started and I believe that the results of my little study are now sufficiently mature to be made easier to access. That is, I would like to make a single image file that would contain the main findings in a format that is easy to understand (bye bye cryptic type designations). Here is the first draft for such an image:



Feedback of any kind will be greatly appreciated.

[jnoxyd]

Well done MiniChamp! Can you add few words about differences of 1966-1979 and post 1979 saw back spring please? It can be useful for beginners.

[Nick4]

Well done MiniChamp!

  Very detailed information! 

[MiniChamp]

Well done MiniChamp!

Thanks!

Can you add few words about differences of 1966-1979 and post 1979 saw back spring please? It can be useful for beginners.

Well, I thought that the remark "Reshaped tip (it is now resting on a bulge when folded)" should cover it. Can you propose better wording to explain it? Alternatively, do you think that it would be good to add an image explanation, like in the following version?

  Very detailed information! 

Thanks! 

[jnoxyd]

It looks grate for me, many thanks MiniChamp! Can we share it in other places please? What does SAKWIKI team think?

[MiniChamp]

Can we share it in other places please?

Sure. 

[Huntsman]

Whoa - How did I miss this thread?      
 
Amazing research and images - Thanks to MC, JNOX, KK and all
 
As discussed these images are heading for the Wiki -  Where they will be very much appreciated
            

PS. And I always thought that the saw had never changed much apart from 27 slopey teeth to 29 straight teeth!

[Huntsman]

Finally got MiniChamps brilliant saw evolution diagram in the Wiki - Apologies for the delay

https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Saw-wood
... via a link on the page

Thanks MC