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Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution

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00 Offline 1jump2many

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #60 on: October 22, 2009, 05:47:58 AM
That's certainly one mixed up SAK. :)
No kidding. It's an odd but interesting knife. Not the least of the issues are that no one knows what to call it or has a picture of it in a catalog. The Deluxe Climber name I got from SmartKnives, which is as good a guess as any really.

Here's a pic showing the grooved corkscrew, hook, and screw-joint scissors. Since I got this knife, I've gotten several others that have the hook/scissors screw combination including an Deluxe Tinker, Explorer, Climber and a Ranger. All of them have the guide groove in the scissors. The Deluxe Climber however, shown here, is the only one of these with a fully grooved corkscrew.

(Image removed from quote.)

Is the awl tip broken off or is that what you are referring to as the grooved cork screw?
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england Offline Benner

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #61 on: October 22, 2009, 12:38:59 PM
The awl is the awl, and yes it does look broken.

The grooved corkscrew is the corkscrew in the pic that has a groove in it.  Modern ones don't have it.
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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #62 on: October 22, 2009, 01:50:02 PM
The groove isn't so easy to make out in jazzbass's picture, here's one that should show it more clearly.



I've heard several ideas as to why it had a groove in it, my personal thought is that it helps the screw "cut" into the cork more easily, but frankly it doesn't seem to make much (if any) difference.


PS I think the awl is just stuck into the black material the SAK is sitting on not broken.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 01:52:33 PM by Gareth »
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us Offline stressmaster5000

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #63 on: October 22, 2009, 04:00:55 PM
Sometimes the "groove" is much more pronounced or at least it seems that way.  :pok: BTW that is my photo I took of an early 91mm Golfer. This one has the same tools as an 84mm golfer but it adds the ink pen/plus scales without adding the stick pin hole. Later on the plus scales had the stick pin hole added and history was made. Now everyone wants "Plus" scales on everything!  :tu: I like "Plus" scales too. Wish they were in 84mm size as well.


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #64 on: October 22, 2009, 05:09:05 PM
Sometimes the "groove" is much more pronounced or at least it seems that way.  :pok: BTW that is my photo I took of an early 91mm Golfer. This one has the same tools as an 84mm golfer but it adds the ink pen/plus scales without adding the stick pin hole. Later on the plus scales had the stick pin hole added and history was made. Now everyone wants "Plus" scales on everything!  :tu: I like "Plus" scales too. Wish they were in 84mm size as well.

I confess I pulled the pic form the SAKwiki, it was the best I find.  I really should have remembered about Ninjaz's new site. ::)

Oddly I have exactly the same Golfer, 91mm, grooved corkscrew, pen but no pin.  In fact it was the knife that really started me looking into SAKs, I realised that it wasn't a normal Compact, as it had no hook.  A few internet searches and SOSAK and I became acquainted. :)
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00 Offline 1jump2many

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #65 on: October 23, 2009, 12:24:26 AM
OK, that clears that up for me,  :tu:  In the first picture I could see the groove but in the picture that Gareth posted I can.  And I also think he is correct about the tip of the awl being imbedded in the black material.  Thanks for the explanation Brenner & Gareth. 
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england Offline Benner

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #66 on: October 23, 2009, 12:36:52 AM
Actually I can see now that it is in the cloth. Good spot Gareth.  :tu:
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us Offline jazzbass

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #67 on: October 23, 2009, 01:03:32 AM
Yep, the tip is in the black cloth, it's not broken. This pic was experiment #4592 in "trying to take a pic of a knife and not have it look like crap". The corkscrew is grooved like the one on the pic above.


00 Offline 1jump2many

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #68 on: October 23, 2009, 02:24:20 AM
Don't feel slighted, you take a lot better pictures than I do.   :D
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us Offline ICanFixThat

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #69 on: October 23, 2009, 03:40:22 AM
Too bad I don't even like Phillips drive!  Oh well, there is a lot of history that would have been better avoided.


us Offline ICanFixThat

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #70 on: October 28, 2009, 01:01:33 AM
I love the Meat Can picture with the Can-Key, but I can't stand to look at it.  Have to find a vegetable or fruit tin for examples.


no Offline North Man

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #71 on: October 29, 2009, 02:19:28 PM
Hi

Congratualtions! well done.....


Best
NM
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ru Offline Katran73

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #72 on: March 01, 2014, 07:19:13 PM
SAAM's 91 mm Tools Evolution - http://archive.is/DxkPF

This archive page instead of lost victorinox.saam007.com/91mmtools.php

And http://forum.knives.pl/index.php/topic,117768.0.html replace part of the lost victorinoxpage.com


hr Offline enki_ck

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #73 on: March 01, 2014, 07:21:52 PM
SAAM's 91 mm Tools Evolution - http://archive.is/DxkPF

This archive page instead of lost victorinox.saam007.com/91mmtools.php

And http://forum.knives.pl/index.php/topic,117768.0.html replace part of the lost victorinoxpage.com

Hi, Katran73. Welcome back. :waving:

SAAM007s is back up at another address.

http://victorinox.metodi.me/91mmtools.php


ru Offline Katran73

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #74 on: March 02, 2014, 06:22:55 AM
Hi, enki_ck. Thank you!

But I still continue to remain reader.  :) Sorry.


spam Offline J Mackrel Jones

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #75 on: March 02, 2014, 06:42:45 PM
Thanks for giving us access to the SAAM site again !

There is also a small change to the fish-scaler after the rules were added:  the 7 1/2 mm mark dropped.
Then there is the shuffle of tools on larger Officers as in these photos:
SAK shuffle.jpg
* SAK shuffle.jpg (Filesize: 310.45 KB)
SAK backs.jpg
* SAK backs.jpg (Filesize: 283.04 KB)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:47:02 PM by J Mackrel Jones »
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us Offline jazzbass

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #76 on: March 02, 2014, 07:58:31 PM
There is also a small change to the fish-scaler after the rules were added:  the 7 1/2 mm mark dropped.
Good eye! I never noticed that one before. I just checked my collection and can reasonably put a date of 1987 on that change.

Then there is the shuffle of tools on larger Officers as in these photos:
Yeah, you see that one a lot. Moving the scissors to the layer next to the openers instead of being next to the blades happens at almost the exact same time as the bail-to-keyring change and the scissors go from the old style gapless to the newer style with the large gap, dating this to about 1969-1970. The is some overlap of styles, but these are seen in < 10% of the Champions out there. Tool-wise, the LNF on the back of the knife gets it's nail-nick moved, so I guess that counts as a tool change.


spam Offline J Mackrel Jones

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #77 on: March 03, 2014, 07:31:20 PM
Jazzbass, you must have a nail-nickless LNF (or two?) in your collection but I have never seen one - even on a post-2004 european Traveller.  Maybe yours is a factory error - QC slip ? 
How is such an nailfile opened? 
Wish the back-side Long Nail File was still on the Officers that don't have a front-side metal saw/file.  Would trade the parcel hook for it any day.
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us Offline jazzbass

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #78 on: March 03, 2014, 08:39:28 PM
Jazzbass, you must have a nail-nickless LNF (or two?) in your collection but I have never seen one - even on a post-2004 european Traveller.  Maybe yours is a factory error - QC slip ? 
How is such an nailfile opened? 
Wish the back-side Long Nail File was still on the Officers that don't have a front-side metal saw/file.  Would trade the parcel hook for it any day.

I probably didn't word my last post as well as I should have. In the Champions you show above, the location of the nail-nick is changed, not removed all together. In the pre-1970 models the nail-nick on the LNF faced the back (corkscrew) side of the knife. This is because of the design of the backsprings of the adjacent layers. When the scissors/LNF layer was moved to the front of the knife beside the opener layers, the nail nick was moved to the front-side of the LNF. A pre-1970 LNF couldn't be used on a post-1970 model because of this.

BTW, this applies to 91mm LNFs only. 84mm models evolve in the opposite way - they face the front side of the knife initially (1940s) and then are changed to face the back side of the knife in the 1950s and stay there until phased out.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:41:08 PM by jazzbass »


Offline MiniChamp

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #79 on: October 21, 2019, 02:25:37 PM
This thread was started about a decade ago (on October 17, 2009) to announce and support the creation of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site. As can be seen above, the thread was active for about two weeks in October 2009 and then for three more days in March 2014. So why wake it up now? First, to celebrate the 10th birthday of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site. Second, to try to find out if SAAM's site is essentially a static document that will never be modified, or that there is still a possibility for it to get improved. Is there? Anyone knows?

In order to make things a bit less theoretical, I'm hereby providing the thing that is most notably missing from SAAM's site: an image of the backside Phillips screwdriver variations. Some of the posts above suggest that ICanFixThat was supposed to provide such an image about a decade ago. Better late than never?

The first attached image is this "missing piece." It was designed to be embedded in the corresponding SAAM's page instead of the current "na.jpg" place holder. The second attached image shows the result of this embedding. Anyone can make such a local version of SAAM's page by doing the following (I used a Windows PC, but it should similarly work on other operating systems):
  • Make a local copy of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution page by choosing "Save Page As" from your web browser's menu with the "Web page, complete" file type option. This should result in an HTML file called "SAAM's - 91mm Tools Evolution.htm" (or "SAAM's - 91mm Tools Evolution.html") and a folder called "SAAM's - 91mm Tools Evolution_files" in the same location.
  • Save a local copy of the first attached image below, make sure that the image file is called "phillips.jpg" and move it to the "SAAM's - 91mm Tools Evolution_files" folder that got created in the previous step.
  • Open the HTML file that got created in the first step with a text editor (such as Notepad). Search and replace "na.jpg" by "phillips.jpg" and then save the modified file.
If you now view your modified HTML file with a web browser, it should look like the second attached image below. A similar operation should also work for an online version of the page if you happen to have access to the site or to a mirror of it (but note that, legally, you may need appropriate permission to make such a publicly available modification).

Some (but not all) of the tool images on SAAM's page are also links to higher resolution versions of the corresponding images. The third attached image below is such a higher resolution version and can be used in this way.

Note that as the creator of both the first attached image and the third attached image below, I am hereby granting everyone the permission to do whatever they want with these two images. This includes, but is not limited to, embedding them in any publicly or privately available version of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site.

A final remark: Note that I'm not taking a position on whether or not distinguishing just 5 different variants of the backside Phillips screwdriver is the right thing to do. As already pointed out in this thread a decade ago (see above), by taking into account more subtle differences, more variants can be identified. The fact is that SAAM's page currently distinguishes 5 variants and the provided image thus shows what I believe to be suitable samples of these variants.
phillips.jpg
* phillips.jpg (Filesize: 64.09 KB)
SAAMs.jpg
* SAAMs.jpg (Filesize: 164.37 KB)
phillipsb.jpg
* phillipsb.jpg (Filesize: 223.99 KB)


us Offline Rapidray

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #80 on: October 21, 2019, 04:21:29 PM
That would be super cool. That site is bookmarked on my IPad and IPhone. I use it pretty often.  :cheers:


Offline MiniChamp

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #81 on: November 03, 2019, 02:29:04 AM
:bump:
So why wake it up now? First, to celebrate the 10th birthday of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site. Second, to try to find out if SAAM's site is essentially a static document that will never be modified, or that there is still a possibility for it to get improved. Is there? Anyone knows?
So...?  :think:  Anyone knows anything?  :dunno:

What about this thread?  :think:  Should it go to sleep for another five years now?  :think:  Is it a good place to discuss Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution?  :dunno: How about using it for pointing out problems in SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site? This way it may serve as an auxiliary source of information related to the site. Opinions?  :dunno:


au Offline Huntsman

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #82 on: November 03, 2019, 11:43:01 AM
Nice work MC.

I know one of our current members knows 'Mr. SAAMS' and contacted him in the last year or so to see if he was going to update the site/page - I cannot remember in which thread this was discusssed   :think:

Apparently he was not planning to do so - As he has moved onto other things

Although I know that some dates were added to that Phillips section in the last couple of years as there used to be more ? ? ? ? entries.

Updating this thread or the Work in the Wiki thread would be good for discussions/updates
Should we add this thread to the SAK identification sticky post - I reckon so   


Offline MiniChamp

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #83 on: November 06, 2019, 02:22:22 AM
Nice work MC.
Thanks!  :tu:

Quote
Updating this thread or the Work in the Wiki thread would be good for discussions/updates
Should we add this thread to the SAK identification sticky post - I reckon so
Good point about the sticky post. Without such an appropriate link, this thread wouldn't be a good place to discuss SAK evolution.

Anyway, I'd like to point out what I consider to be the most significant "bug" in the current version of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site. It's the year listed for the transition from a 5-loops fluted corkscrew to a 4-loops fluted corkscrew. As is well known, this is one of the many changes that occurred around 1973, but SAAM's site lists it as occurring in 1983. I've seen quite a few MTO posts where this error seems to confuse people. I suspect that it's essentially a typo.


00 Offline jnoxyd

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Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #84 on: November 06, 2019, 10:21:58 AM
Thanks!  :tu:
Good point about the sticky post. Without such an appropriate link, this thread wouldn't be a good place to discuss SAK evolution.

Anyway, I'd like to point out what I consider to be the most significant "bug" in the current version of SAAM's 91mm Tools Evolution site. It's the year listed for the transition from a 5-loops fluted corkscrew to a 4-loops fluted corkscrew. As is well known, this is one of the many changes that occurred around 1973, but SAAM's site lists it as occurring in 1983. I've seen quite a few MTO posts where this error seems to confuse people. I suspect that it's essentially a typo.
Good news  :salute: I've asked SAAM again about "corckscrew bug" and he found ability to fix it. Now I can recommend his site to new SAK collectors without saying every time "it's good for dating but 4 loop corcscrew started in 1973"  :whistle:


au Offline Huntsman

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #85 on: November 06, 2019, 12:59:00 PM
That's great jnox - Thanks to you and Mr Saam

Now I can recommend his site to new SAK collectors without saying every time "it's good for dating but 4 loop corcscrew started in 1973"  :whistle:
You could always recommend this .......  It's had the CS correct for a while!   :whistle:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51872.msg1629826.html#msg1629826   
 :climber:

It was based on SAAMs originally but now it's a bit more accurate and more detailed than SAAMs - Although not as pretty and well overdue for an update


Offline MiniChamp

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #86 on: November 06, 2019, 07:00:46 PM
Good news  :salute: I've asked SAAM again about "corckscrew bug" and he found ability to fix it.
Wow!  :woohoo:  Cool!  :tu:  Thanks for making it happen, Jnoxyd!  :salute:

to try to find out if SAAM's site is essentially a static document that will never be modified, or that there is still a possibility for it to get improved. Is there? Anyone knows?
I guess I got an answer. Now I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to feel about all this. Happy that the most significant bug got fixed or disappointed that my image of backside Phillips screwdriver variants wasn't adopted.  :think:  :think:  :think:  :dunno:  C'est la vie, I guess.  :D


us Offline kamakiri

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #87 on: November 06, 2019, 10:36:05 PM
Wow!  :woohoo:  Cool!  :tu:  Thanks for making it happen, Jnoxyd!  :salute:
I guess I got an answer. Now I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to feel about all this. Happy that the most significant bug got fixed or disappointed that my image of backside Phillips screwdriver variants wasn't adopted.  :think:  :think:  :think:  :dunno:  C'est la vie, I guess.  :D

I'd rather have the dates fixed. I have the 'square' phillips ending c. '82.  Lots of examples that are pre-'86 with the round can-key phillips.





« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 10:51:14 PM by kamakiri »
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Offline MiniChamp

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #88 on: November 10, 2019, 03:16:24 AM
I'd rather have the dates fixed. I have the 'square' phillips ending c. '82.
Certainly before 1985, but I believe that 1983-84 is more likely to be correct. This is because it's relatively common to see a square Phillips on SAKs with the latest eyeless variant of the awl.

Anyway, while there may be a limited scope to the changes that can be expected in SAAM's site, it may be useful to provide more information in the framework of this thread. Hence, the first attached image below shows seven different variants of the backside Phillips screwdriver. Since the shooting direction in this image (which is dictated by the location of the can-key slit) makes it difficult to tell the difference between variant 1a and variant 1b, the second attached image shows these two variants from a different direction.

The identification of these seven variants isn't just my personal preference. AFAIK, it's what emerges from previous MTO discussions. In particular, JazzBass discussed the 1a/1b difference above in this thread and the 2a/2b difference on other threads (see, e.g., https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51872.msg1632708.html#msg1632708). Here is what I can say about these variants:
  • 1a.  square, double-cut file, no can-key; used 1951-1960.
  • 1b.  square, single-cut file, no can-key; used 1960-1973.
  • 2a.  unpolished square, no file, no can-key; Elinox variant: used on Elinox SAKs from 1957 until the early 1970's.
  • 2b.  polished square, no file, no can-key; a relatively rare variant that was used quite briefly in the early 1970's (probably in 1971-1973; possibly in some overlap with variant 1b).
  • 3.   polished square, no file, can-key; used 1973-1983.
  • 4.   round, can-key; used 1983-1991.
  • 5.   round, no can-key; used since 1991.
Note that these proposed year ranges are guesstimates that may very well be wrong by an error margin of up to two years (but hopefully not more than that). They are based on a combination of my personal observations along with what others (notably JazzBass) reported in the framework of MTO discussions.
BackPhillipsVariants.jpg
* BackPhillipsVariants.jpg (Filesize: 148.7 KB)
PhillipsFilesVariants.jpg
* PhillipsFilesVariants.jpg (Filesize: 168.67 KB)


us Offline Myron

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Re: Victorinox 91mm Tools Evolution
Reply #89 on: November 10, 2019, 05:23:27 AM
Excellent summary; thank you, MiniChamp.


 

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