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Woah, is this for real?

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us Offline ducktapehero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #30 on: November 16, 2009, 05:26:28 PM
but it's like saying that one prison is nicer than another.

Some are  ;) here you get no congenial visits  :ahhh  :D
Here in the US we get our conjugal visit by Uncle Sam every April 15th.  :o :o
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spam Offline John

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #31 on: November 16, 2009, 05:35:39 PM
but it's like saying that one prison is nicer than another.

Some are  ;) here you get no congenial visits  :ahhh  :D
Here in the US we get our conjugal visit by Uncle Sam every April 15th.  :o :o
That's the word I was looking for  :tu: In that case I get one every time I spend a pound  ::)


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #32 on: November 16, 2009, 05:36:10 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?  I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics. ;)
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Offline ringzero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #33 on: November 16, 2009, 05:44:30 PM
I don't think any of us are TRULY "free". Some may be more free compared to others but it's like saying that one prison is nicer than another.

Freedom is an unusual condition in human society.  Tyranny, oligarchy, and autocracy are much more common.

Throughout history most people have tended to prefer strong, somewhat repressive governments over freedom.

Even today, many people will gladly trade away their freedom for govenrment health care, welfare benefits, tougher policing, etc.

Historically speaking, freedom doesn't happen often, and usually after arising it doesn't last for long.

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um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #34 on: November 16, 2009, 05:44:57 PM
I don't think any of us are TRULY "free". Some may be more free compared to others but it's like saying that one prison is nicer than another.

Well, the price of true freedom are pretty high.  It is possible in the US, Canada and Mexico.  First thing, though, you have to be completely off the grid.  A pretty tough thing to do.  Next, you need to grow and raise most of your food.  Having a motorized vehicle makes it extremely hard too, since fuel is a major problem.  

Everytime you interact with the system that is on grid, you make concessions that you will have some level of government interference--from surveillence cameras, to using currency.  Barter is a tough way to go, but can be done.

If completely offgrid, figure on a shortened lifespan, cuz most modern healthcare hooks you into the system permanently.

Society has a price, I'm afraid.  :(


um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #35 on: November 16, 2009, 05:48:17 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK.  A significantly different situation in the US, Canada, Australia, etc where the land belongs to the people.


us Offline ducktapehero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #36 on: November 16, 2009, 05:49:22 PM
Freedom is an unusual condition in human society.  Tyranny, oligarchy, and autocracy are much more common.

Throughout history most people have tended to prefer strong, somewhat repressive governments over freedom.

Even today, many people will gladly trade away their freedom for govenrment health care, welfare benefits, tougher policing, etc.
Yep, and it's sad that we're living in a period that true freedom is dying. It's just like the Rome in its dying days, the citizens don't care about the declining moral values or the "barbarians at the gate". Just give us our gladiator games and make sure we have it easy.
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Offline ringzero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #37 on: November 16, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
Freedom is an unusual condition in human society.  Tyranny, oligarchy, and autocracy are much more common.

Throughout history most people have tended to prefer strong, somewhat repressive governments over freedom.

Even today, many people will gladly trade away their freedom for govenrment health care, welfare benefits, tougher policing, etc.
Yep, and it's sad that we're living in a period that true freedom is dying. It's just like the Rome in its dying days, the citizens don't care about the declining moral values or the "barbarians at the gate". Just give us our gladiator games and make sure we have it easy.

True, it's sad that we're witnessing the death of freedom.

But, we already beat very long odds by being born at the right time and place to experience freedom in the first place.  History wise, the odds are against it.

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spam Offline John

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #38 on: November 16, 2009, 06:01:31 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK. 

This is true!I've often been told "GET OFF MY LAND"  ::)


us Offline ducktapehero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #39 on: November 16, 2009, 06:04:56 PM
One thing, in you're in the US and you think you truly own land, skip paying "rent" (property taxes) and see how long it belongs to you.
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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #40 on: November 16, 2009, 06:13:39 PM
One thing, in you're in the US and you think you truly own land, skip paying "rent" (property taxes) and see how long it belongs to you.

I think property tax of some form is as old as history.

A Duke had to pay a yearly fee to his Sovereign for the right to own his lands.  The Duke collected fees from smaller landholders within his fiefdom, and on down the line to the tenant farmers at the bottom.

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us Offline Gadget Guy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #41 on: November 16, 2009, 06:16:25 PM
And I thought it was bad here.  ::)  >:(  All hail the USSUKR!!  ::) >:( ::) >:(

I hope you guys understand that I mean no disrespect to the people of the UK, but what was posted was USSRish. Heck, they call California "The Peoples Republic of California".  :rofl:
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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #42 on: November 16, 2009, 06:23:09 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?  I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

The UK has a more democratic government than the US.

Historically speaking, the more democratic a government becomes, the less freedoms its people enjoy.

.
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Offline american lockpicker

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #43 on: November 16, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
I heard that in the UK you don't vote for your prime minister you just vote for a party.
(


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #44 on: November 16, 2009, 06:27:14 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK.  A significantly different situation in the US, Canada, Australia, etc where the land belongs to the people.

Well the House of Lords is a body that has very limited power, at most that can delay some bills by up to a year but no more and often less.  But I will concede that the notion is outdated.

I'm not quite sure I understand the difference you are making in land ownership?  Yes someone owns pretty much every bit of the UK, but then we are a very small island and most of our rural land is given over to farming of one kind or another.  That's not to say we have no access to the majority of the land it's just that we need to be respectful of the fact it isn't ours.  I know that I wouldn't be at all happy if someone walked through my garden, had a fire and broke my fences, all the while claiming they had the right to be there.  I'm pretty sure this would hold true in the US as well.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #45 on: November 16, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
I heard that in the UK you don't vote for your prime minister you just vote for a party.

Correct, this is because the Prime Minister isn't the Head of State (unlike a President).  The strong emphasis here (in theory) is voting for the Party not the person.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


gb Offline nuphoria

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #46 on: November 16, 2009, 06:33:58 PM
The very concept that a portion of the big rock we stand on can "belong" to one us is bloody ludicrous in the first place, but I understand the practical need for it to work that way in a modern society.

Should we divvy up the water too? Oh wait... we did  :doh:

It's a shame really that people are no good at sharing anything... humans are a bit rubbish really....
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Offline ringzero

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #47 on: November 16, 2009, 06:35:43 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK.  A significantly different situation in the US, Canada, Australia, etc where the land belongs to the people.

Well the House of Lords is a body that has very limited power, at most that can delay some bills by up to a year but no more and often less.  But I will concede that the notion is outdated.

I'm not quite sure I understand the difference you are making in land ownership?  Yes someone owns pretty much every bit of the UK, but then we are a very small island and most of our rural land is given over to farming of one kind or another.  That's not to say we have no access to the majority of the land it's just that we need to be respectful of the fact it isn't ours.  I know that I wouldn't be at all happy if someone walked through my garden, had a fire and broke my fences, all the while claiming they had the right to be there.  I'm pretty sure this would hold true in the US as well.

It does hold true.

For most of the US east of the Mississippi, almost all of the land is in private hands.  There are state and Federal parks, National Forests, a few Federal Wilderness areas, but most people have to travel to reach those.

West of the Mississippi there is much more government land so residents may have public lands closer to home.

.
N


um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #48 on: November 16, 2009, 06:46:00 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK.  A significantly different situation in the US, Canada, Australia, etc where the land belongs to the people.

Well the House of Lords is a body that has very limited power, at most that can delay some bills by up to a year but no more and often less.  But I will concede that the notion is outdated.

I'm not quite sure I understand the difference you are making in land ownership?  Yes someone owns pretty much every bit of the UK, but then we are a very small island and most of our rural land is given over to farming of one kind or another.  That's not to say we have no access to the majority of the land it's just that we need to be respectful of the fact it isn't ours.  I know that I wouldn't be at all happy if someone walked through my garden, had a fire and broke my fences, all the while claiming they had the right to be there.  I'm pretty sure this would hold true in the US as well.

The fact is, in the US, much of the land is owned by the people.  That is, everyone is welcome to explore it and has a legal right to access it.  This was not always the case, but became a major push of Theodore Roosevelt, protecting Lt from being gobbled up by commercial interests (mostly mining, lumber and railroads at the time).  

Point is, I guess, that until recently (a few hundred years, if that's recent ::)) all of the land belonged to the monarchy.  Those lands were never given to "the people of Great Britain".  In the US, Canada, Australia, etc., the land was open (once the countries became independent).

In fairness, I'm not sure there would have been any way to redistribute the lands of GB, just pointing out that land is a resource which has never been freely available to those not of the landed gentry.


um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #49 on: November 16, 2009, 06:53:24 PM
As soon as I read that, my first thought was. Yeah, right - of course that's what happened.

We don't live in a police state, and I firmly believe that we live in the most democratic and free environment in the civilised world, here in the UK. We invented the concept in fact. I've lived abroad and couldn't wait to get back.



You think?

I'd argue that the US, Canada, Australia or even Switzerland are more free and equally democratic.  Y'all have a lot of leftovers from the monarchy.  Land access, right to weapons, freedom from government intrusion into your life.  (And the Swiss have been Monarch free for a VERY long time...)

You know the Queen has as much to say about the running of the UK as she does Canada and Australia, right?   I'm going to tread very lightly here as this is awfully close to a political discussion and you know what Grant gets like when we talk politics.(Image removed from quote.) ;)

House of Lords still gets a say though, right?  That's a remnant of the monarchy.

Plus, I was under the impression that much of the rural lands are in private hands in the UK.  A significantly different situation in the US, Canada, Australia, etc where the land belongs to the people.

Well the House of Lords is a body that has very limited power, at most that can delay some bills by up to a year but no more and often less.  But I will concede that the notion is outdated.

I'm not quite sure I understand the difference you are making in land ownership?  Yes someone owns pretty much every bit of the UK, but then we are a very small island and most of our rural land is given over to farming of one kind or another.  That's not to say we have no access to the majority of the land it's just that we need to be respectful of the fact it isn't ours.  I know that I wouldn't be at all happy if someone walked through my garden, had a fire and broke my fences, all the while claiming they had the right to be there.  I'm pretty sure this would hold true in the US as well.

It does hold true.

For most of the US east of the Mississippi, almost all of the land is in private hands.   There are state and Federal parks, National Forests, a few Federal Wilderness areas, but most people have to travel to reach those.

West of the Mississippi there is much more government land so residents may have public lands closer to home.

.


You do realize most of that land was divvied up at time when the concept of public lands was a a nonWestern concept.  Much of the land ownership, actually was deeded by the King of England when you speak of the Eastern Seaboard. 

After nationhood, the land was given or sold to all comers, not based on one family picking and choosing who received it.  This is a critical difference in how land ownership was determined.

@Nuphoria:  Yes, "Ownership" is an odd concept.  Seems more reasonable to "lease" the use of the public lands in a long term fashion, would make more sense and prevent the sorts of degradation that regularly occurs.


spam Offline John

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #50 on: November 16, 2009, 07:00:03 PM
I heard that in the UK you don't vote for your prime minister you just vote for a party.

Correct, this is because the Prime Minister isn't the Head of State (unlike a President).  The strong emphasis here (in theory) is voting for the Party not the person.
But that's it Gareth we don't vote the person but the party  :cheers:

[edit]and if that party is listening I'd like back my Persian carpet you put on account  :pok:  :cheers:
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 07:08:58 PM by John »


england Offline DaveK

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #51 on: November 16, 2009, 08:23:40 PM
I have returned!

Some good debate here, and it fascinates me to see how other countries think the UK governmental actually works.

Gareth has pretty much covered what I would say, but I've a couple of additional thoughts to add about the things that have been mentioned.

 - The House of Lords, is mainly just a law-making body now. They have no authority whatsoever without ratification by Parliament. Parliament has the first, and last word on all legal policy. The Lords is a tradition, perpetuated for sentimental reasons. Recently moves were made to remove the right for hereditary peers to vote on anything that matters anyway - most people thought it wasn't worth the bother! The Lords' main contribution to government these days is in running sub-committees, at which they tend to be very experienced and efficient, as well as cheaper than politicians.

- It amazes me that people believe that the Royal Family, or the remnants of it have any influence in what goes on in this country, it really does. I'll stop short of labelling the Royals as simply a "tourist attraction" through my own personal respect for our national heritage, but in reality, that's what they have become. London is absolutely full of Americans buying red phone box ornaments, and teddy bears dressed up as the Home Guard or Household Cavalry. Long live the Queen! That's what I say.

- Some of the Royals still hold significant land and live in stately homes, but they are very rare now. Most have turned their country houses over to charitable organisations like English Heritage or The National Trust, as they cannot afford the upkeep. Some of these buildings are older than your country, and personally I donate to both of these charities and hold family memberships so I can vist them, walk in their grounds and help ensure they are here for several hundred years more.

- I find the idea of voting for a person (like your President), rather than a local representative who has heard of the cities and towns he represents totally bizarre. We don't vote for parties any more than in the US you vote Republican or Democrat, we vote for local MPs. Obviously however, people (myself included) may select that representative based on which party they belong to and what I expect the national outcome. It's just the same.

Ironically, your President has far more consolidated "imperialistic" power than our monarch has had since 1564 (or whenever it was - I wasn't born).

But that's it Gareth we don't vote the person but the party  :cheers:

No we don't. Have a look at the ballot paper properly next time you vote ;)


And I thought it was bad here.  ::)  >:(  All hail the USSUKR!!  ::) >:( ::) >:(

I hope you guys understand that I mean no disrespect to the people of the UK, but what was posted was USSRish. Heck, they call California "The Peoples Republic of California".  :rofl:

I knew that John :tu:

I used to come here a lot.


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #52 on: November 16, 2009, 08:25:26 PM
Luckily we do have some national parks and also the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (England and Wales) plus the Land Reform Act 2003 (Scotland).  These bits of legislation went a long way to clarifying what had long been the case anyway (at least here in Scotland).
http://www.nationalparks.gov.uk/
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/Resources/Ramblers%20Association/Website/Freedom%20to%20Roam/Documents/Ftr_guide.pdf
http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/KnowCode.pdf


Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #53 on: November 16, 2009, 08:35:49 PM
Luckily we do have some national parks and also the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (England and Wales) plus the Land Reform Act 2003 (Scotland).  These bits of legislation went a long way to clarifying what had long been the case anyway (at least here in Scotland).
http://www.nationalparks.gov.uk/
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/Resources/Ramblers%20Association/Website/Freedom%20to%20Roam/Documents/Ftr_guide.pdf
http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/KnowCode.pdf




I didn't know about these right of way reforms.  Just read the links.  That goes a LONG way towards citizens' rights to the countryside.  :tu:

Really creative way to deal with the issue. :)

Thanks for those links, Gareth.


england Offline DaveK

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #54 on: November 16, 2009, 08:38:39 PM
To be fair, proper laws or not, Public Footpaths have been around since long before I was born. There aren't many places I can't go if I wanted to.

This is an organisation that I am passionate (and very patriotic) about:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/
I used to come here a lot.


spam Offline John

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #55 on: November 16, 2009, 09:07:38 PM
To be fair, proper laws or not, Public Footpaths have been around since long before I was born. There aren't many places I can't go if I wanted to.

This is an organisation that I am passionate (and very patriotic) about:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/
Thanks Dave but you must understand all land is not public  :tu:
So sorry Dave I'm done with this now   ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:10:01 PM by John »


england Offline DaveK

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #56 on: November 16, 2009, 09:09:30 PM
Quite right too. See what you get if you come on my drive without being invited :D
I used to come here a lot.


spam Offline John

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #57 on: November 16, 2009, 09:12:26 PM
Quite right too. See what you get if you come on my drive without being invited :D
Well  :salute: I'll see you tomorrow then  :D  :pok:  :mn:


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #58 on: November 16, 2009, 09:19:42 PM
Careful, he'll write a sternly worded letter to your duty elected local MP....  :D

Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


england Offline DaveK

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Re: Woah, is this for real?
Reply #59 on: November 16, 2009, 09:22:08 PM
Yes, to remove the remains  :P
I used to come here a lot.


 

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