Polite discussion on.........

[GraysonK]

Hmm, well there went that idea.    Anthony and Bob, you're right.  I do like this thread because it's been interesting but I think I am getting tad too argumentative.  Sorry.    Anthony you just summed up my point with a lot less emotion that I was about to post.  Thanks for the reality check.    I'll be good.  I promise.  Don't let Ben ban me.  Please?  Please???    LOL

[NeitherExtreme]

Having spent first 21 years of my life in one of the above-mentioned states, I would lilke to add my perspective on the subject...

Howdy! This is the beauty of the internet! Thank you for your first hand opinions. I'd love to sit down and hear a lot more of what you have to say, but I guess i'll have to settle for a forum chat. Anyhow, although we probably disagree on a lot of conclusions, I appreciate that you acknowledged a significant benefit that religion has had (namely instilling a set of ethical values in a society).

Also you brought up the very correct point that science can be exploited for immoral purposes, but that this is not automatically a flaw in science, but in the people using it. I think the same can be said for religion.

Of course all this concerning the role of religion in society is one kind of discussion... The real fun ones IMO are  discussing what we actually believe about the universe, and why. Those are hard to have on a forum.


Also wanted to add another +1 for Anthony's comments on human nature.

[GraysonK]

Having spent first 21 years of my life in one of the above-mentioned states, I would lilke to add my perspective on the subject...

Howdy! This is the beauty of the internet! Thank you for your first hand opinions. I'd love to sit down and hear a lot more of what you have to say, but I guess i'll have to settle for a forum chat. Anyhow, although we probably disagree on a lot of conclusions, I appreciate that you acknowledged a significant benefit that religion has had (namely instilling a set of ethical values in a society).

Also you brought up the very correct point that science can be exploited for immoral purposes, but that this is not automatically a flaw in science, but in the people using it. I think the same can be said for religion.

Of course all this concerning the role of religion in society is one kind of discussion... The real fun ones IMO are  discussing what we actually believe about the universe, and why. Those are hard to have on a forum.


Also wanted to add another +1 for Anthony's comments on human nature.

+1  I agree...those are a lot more fun.  I get into those all the time.  It gets tiresome justifying why I believe something and is fun when someone "I can see that, but here's my take..."

[Mr. Whippy]

Now, since I am posting again, I would like to comment on Eugenics. It is unreasonable to blame "science" for unethical application of scientific findings. Nuclear research is good, atomic bomb is bad. Genetics is good, Eugenics is bad. My funamental position is that knowledge is ALWAYS preferable to ignorance. That said, exploitation of science for political or financial gain may have catastrophic consequences.

Precisely.  My point was, Paul stated

I can not think of any examples of “bad things done in the name of atheism” or science for that matter

and I wanted to show how ludicrous the statement was.  When adhered to in a zealous, egocentric way, (perhaps not even for political or financial gain), the end result will likely be the same.

This is, IMO, because humans are not truly rational, just self aware.

[Styerman]

I think it's pretty safe to say that more throats have been slit in the name of Jesus Christ than in all other causes combined . Taking that into consideration , we have a bloody cheek crapping on the Islamic world , A) they outnumber us , and are growing faster , B) they have in the course of history , had a much better overall record for tolerance .

I dont see ever ( even if I believed ) , participating in organized religion . When you dissect it neatly , it's just another set of myths and ledgends .

Chris

[Paul]

Mr Whippy,

There are plenty findings in science like ‘gravity’ for instance that can do harmful things or “bad things” 
Your analogy is like saying that science is to blame for someone who dies as a result of being pushed of a tall building, instead of blaming the person who pushed him.

And then again the person may have been wanted to die as a result some incurable disease, or it could have been Adolph himself who was pushed and killed…….


You seem to be playing some kind of verbal tennis, and I would prefer to hear your veiws on religion.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Ok let's keep this polite please guys

[Paul]

This thought just came into my head:

Science and religion are like multi-tools, in science you can open the correct tool for the job and if you find something lacking you can always make a mod or introduce another layer or corkscrew or something that will be of benefit.
There are no blades, pliers, scissors or anything on a religious multi-tool, you just have to imagine them and when your tool needs another addition just imagine one in there!

I can never prove that your tool is useless as long as you have faith in it.

[american lockpicker]

Comment withheld.

[Mr. Whippy]

I'm out of this thread.

Paul, sorry to say, your posts read with the zealotry of Christian fundamentalist "True Believers".  I don't perceive any sense of critical assessment of the application and MISapplication of scientific principles.

As a very smart American History instructor told me once, anytime you want to understand why a movement took hold or policy was enacted, forget ALL the lofty ideals such as Manifest Destiny, Divine Providence or Eugenics and look for the three prime motivations of Man:

1. Power
2. Wealth
3. Land/Territory

The lofty concepts are simply a means to an end.  In the case of religion, the same applies.  People desirous of Power/Wealth/Territory used the principles of a given religion to obtain the three.  Science can and has been used in the same way, it's just that  Religion has a 5-10,000 year head start on Science.

[Medic82]

I think it's pretty safe to say that more throats have been slit in the name of Jesus Christ than in all other causes combined . Taking that into consideration , we have a bloody cheek crapping on the Islamic world , A) they outnumber us , and are growing faster , B) they have in the course of history , had a much better overall record for tolerance .

I dont see ever ( even if I believed ) , participating in organized religion . When you dissect it neatly , it's just another set of myths and ledgends .

Chris

Islam is only on 2 place, Christianity is still number 1. And Islam have had as much of tolerance as Christianity.

Take Iran for instance, why can a women be stoned to death because she was unfaithful with another man? Why do EVERY women HAVE to cover their hair? Because Iran is following Sharia. What about al Qaida that is an extremist group where the followers are Wahabi Muslims, they are doing it in the name of Islam and Allah, sure they are an extremist group that only a small part of Muslims follow but they are still doing it.

I believe that the reason why Islam is “out of touch” with the modern western civilization is that Christianity and Bible have been modified over the years while Islam and the Quran have never been up for a new interpretation.

This is not intended as an attack at Islam but it just shows that Islam is not that tolerant.

I can’t the se the problem with science and religion going hand in hand, but this is me. Science and Darwin have come up with Big BANG theory and how humans evolved but how did the Big BANG come to exist in the first place? Science say String theory but how did that first start? You can go on for ages but religion always have an answer that science don’t  have, and that’s God. God did it, simple isn’t it?

[Paul]

I'm out of this thread.


As a very smart American History instructor told me once, anytime you want to understand why a movement took hold or policy was enacted, forget ALL the lofty ideals such as Manifest Destiny, Divine Providence or Eugenics and look for the three prime motivations of Man:

1. Power
2. Wealth
3. Land/Territory

Nah,  he just meant American's didn't he?   

All You Need Is Love....John Lennon 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Okey, and the thread is locked

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Just to clarify, we're not holding anyone responsible for this thread turning bad. Just that we can see the bad blood that it could cause if we allow it to go any further