Polite discussion on.........

[Mr. Whippy]

Multiple philosophies can and do exist none of which is more or less correct--just different views of the same event.  Example:  One cannot credibly say that a Hindu's view of right and wrong is more correct than a Muslim's view of it or an atheist's view of it.  Both are valid, but different.

...and to further the point, in the wild, when one of a pack of wolves attacks (and possibly kills) another member of the pack, there is no moral value placed on it by other members of the pack.  It is simply a fact--and in general the pack continues on.  That humans place a moral value on the same act, but with different moral meanings depending on situation, is indicative of morality's subjective nature.

Morals can come from philosophy or religion - agreed, but  you seem to be saying  that these are one and the same thing?
Phlosophy is based on reason and inquiry while religion discourages it.

Depends on the religion, now doesn't it?  Seems to me you attribute all negative aspects to theist based philosophies--religion if you will (essentially) and all positive aspects to Non-theist philosophies.  Sorta prejudicial viewpoint, I'd say...

"prejudicial" ?.. No.... Skeptical yes.

At least you recognize you come to this discussion with a strong bias--and therefore your opinion is not impartial.

[sardauker]

I hope my english is good enough to make me understood.

You know, here in Italy we live next door with the Pope, Church has voice, hands and pockets in law, school, government...
They asked to make a consultation fail -it was about assisted procreation- and they made it fail.

I'm Atheist after 15 years grown Catholic, since when I began asking "why?".
I couldn't find answers involving a god -whichever- to the questions the world gives us, first of all "why bad things happen to good people?"
I've also tried to answer with faith only... and I found it also difficult. It is so difficult "you must believe in God because God wants so".
Religions were written by men for men. In many cases, MADE UP from previous myths.
Mayans ripped hearts for their gods, and they were GOOD people, at their eyes. Menads had orgies, that is a bit (a lot, I suppose, choice given) better, but the same...
Did you know that women have soul for one vote in a council, after many consultations, just because one of the voters fall ill?
That there are much more than 4 gospels, and the 4 we read now were chosen and sorted from an emperor that got baptized only in his death bed?
I really know better the inconsistencies in the bible, but, just to be fair...
did you know that the muslim prophet had a wife 9 years old?

Then I look at what religion did to people, in history. Inquisition (nobody expected it), persecutions, books erased from human knowledge, WARS, one after another...
I know also that religion did some good. But it's no good that could not have been done from a person with only a good empathy and common sense.
I mean... what religion was Gandhi's? did it matter?




I do not believe in god.
I believe there will be no hell, or no heaven (and I do not want an heaven where I'm so high I CAN'T be sad). We have just one dance, and it's better for us to dance as good as we can.
I believe that when two people love each other, there's no problem about their shape, sex, colour of whatsoever.
I believe that science was given to help us, so welcome to staminals, assisted procreation and so on. "Walk for a mile in my shoes..."
I believe that a man is the sum of its experiences, lives in his brain and is master of his life. I accept, even if I don't please them, euthanasia and abortion, because they are NOT easy choices.
I believe that we are basically good, because we share other people's joy, and there's no worst mistake than believing to be better than someother, even if God said so, because this make us think that OUR joy is more important of their's.
I believe that we learn and we teach from each other, and if something of what I believe in will be passed to my sons, or to my friends, because it was good and strong and joyful, well, I'll become immortal with them.


Red button for me?

[Paul]

Imagination and Scepticism  work well together.

[sardauker]

At one point in time, yes religion played a major role in controlling others, but it was done by those in charge who didn't know any other way to control their people except to tell them that they had an immortal soul and then scare them into believing that if the didn't follow the rules set forth by their leaders then they risked their souls burning forever.

Welcome in Italy, home of the Vatican City, THAT point in time.

[Medic82]

I have been in the YMCA for almost 20 years now and I have grown up with a religious grand mother but I’m still not religious, I do believe there is a higher power but I don’t believe it is God as described in the Bible or Koran.

I have worked with people that comes from different parts of Christianity and Islam and I have had long discussions with them about their religious beliefs and I have learned a lot from them. I respect their belief and the choice they have made, but I don’t like religions that dictate how you shall live your life.

One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink and is waiting to have sex until he is married, I asked him why and he said that for him it is the only right decision. Was this because he was dictated from an early age? No, it was a decision he made after reading the bible.
The other Christian was part of Jehovah witnesses and he didn’t do his year of conscription because he was told that he could not do it, did he vote at the election this year? No, he was not allowed.

I have worked with 4 Muslims at the most and they where all divided when it came to Islam. Like this here for example, in the Koran it says that you can’t eat and drink stuff that is bad for you, we all know that Muslims can’t eat pork and drink alcohol (those poor people, they don’t know what they are missing) but that also goes for cigarettes, one of the Muslims said that it is allowed but the other one says that it isn’t and the 2 other said that as long as he didn’t eat pork then it was OK. Go figure!!!

I really don’t like Islam, I don’t really like Jehovah witness, HEKK! I don’t like a religion that says if you are living the wrong way then you are going to a very hot place. But it’s not my place do judge a person if he wants to live his life as a Muslim or a Catholic, if he treats me and other people with respect and he is contributing to the society in a positive way then he is free to do as he pleas.

[american lockpicker]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

[GraysonK]

At one point in time, yes religion played a major role in controlling others, but it was done by those in charge who didn't know any other way to control their people except to tell them that they had an immortal soul and then scare them into believing that if the didn't follow the rules set forth by their leaders then they risked their souls burning forever.

Welcome in Italy, home of the Vatican City, THAT point in time.

Sardauker,
You were perfectly understandable and you didn't say anything ban worthy.    You bring up some excellent points...points that lots of people share and question themselves.  Good for you.

[Medic82]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

LOL! Funny that you would mention that, the Jehovah witness dude does drink alcohol and he said that his idol Jesus turned water to wine.

[american lockpicker]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

LOL! Funny that you would mention that, the Jehovah witness dude does drink alcohol and he said that his idol Jesus turned water to wine.

They aren't like that here. Or they downplay the fact that is was alcohol because in the early 20th century alcohol became a "bad" thing...

[Medic82]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

LOL! Funny that you would mention that, the Jehovah witness dude does drink alcohol and he said that his idol Jesus turned water to wine.

They aren't like that here. Or they downplay the fact that is was alcohol because in the early 20th century alcohol became a "bad" thing...

The congregation he belongs to has it’s own whiskey club, I was surprised when I heard that since I have always believed them to be really strict, but in Norway they are a little more liberal I guess.

[american lockpicker]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

LOL! Funny that you would mention that, the Jehovah witness dude does drink alcohol and he said that his idol Jesus turned water to wine.

They aren't like that here. Or they downplay the fact that is was alcohol because in the early 20th century alcohol became a "bad" thing...

The congregation he belongs to has it’s own whiskey club, I was surprised when I heard that since I have always believed them to be really strict, but in Norway they are a little more liberal I guess.

So let me get this right you have Voss on tap, cheap swedish knives and, everyone at church drinks. I want to move to Norway! 

[Medic82]

"One of the Christians that I worked with don’t drink" I don't understand were Christains get this at. One of Jesus's miracles was providing wine for a party. I can understand not drinking in excess but in moderation is fine. But then again other people think that Jesus was ultra conservative(Baptists Catholics, etc.) when if you read about him he was clearly a SoSmurfpillst(he gave all the people a chance to get into heaven not just a select few, he healed the poor, shared his food withe everyone, etc).

LOL! Funny that you would mention that, the Jehovah witness dude does drink alcohol and he said that his idol Jesus turned water to wine.

They aren't like that here. Or they downplay the fact that is was alcohol because in the early 20th century alcohol became a "bad" thing...

The congregation he belongs to has it’s own whiskey club, I was surprised when I heard that since I have always believed them to be really strict, but in Norway they are a little more liberal I guess.

So let me get this right you have Voss on tap, cheap swedish knives and, everyone at church drinks. I want to move to Norway! 

LOL!!! You are more than welcome dude.

[Paul]

Just read this article:
At irregular but frequent intervals since 1982, Gallup, America’s best-known polling organisation, has been sampling the national opinion on this question:

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings?

1.   Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process. (36%)

2.   Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in it. (14%)

3.   God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so. (44%)

No.3  is what I find most shocking.

A lot of history deniers stateside or an educational disaster? You decide!!
 

[nuphoria]

I'm a scientist with faith or sorts but I eat creationalists for breakfast 

I believe in what science had proven to be true - the jury's out on the rest.

[GraysonK]

I forget exactly where I read this, but I know it was in some kind of story:
"The difference between being right and being happy is that you never have to prove that your happy"  (I don't  know if this is a quote by someone else or I'd give them credit)  
I am a very linear thinker.  I love information, I love learning, and I love questioning things and finding answers.  I constantly question the church and constantly question my religion but not because I'm trying to prove or disprove anything.  I do it because I find it interesting.  I do the same with other religions, history, and all kinds of other random things.  But I don't question my faith.  My faith makes me happy.  Maybe that makes me naive, maybe that makes me a traitor to the sciences that I love.  And maybe it makes me ridiculous because I choose to believe in something higher than myself.  But I don't have to prove that I'm happy in my choice to do so.  Other people don't have to do that either.  If they choose to be religious rather than spiritual and follow the letter of their religion to the exclusion of everything else then more power to them.  I don't agree with trying to force others to believe the same way about religion nor do I appreciate people who's sole purpose is "make" others see the "truth" about something that they hold very dear.  
Others may find happiness in proving something or being right, but if people are happy in their beliefs then they don't have to prove it.  
And I also believe that truth is subjective.  Facts are not.  And facts, for most people, are a lot easier to refute than their truths.  

[nuphoria]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

[Paul]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

That's a very good point, and a good scientific point too. Course' just because something is nice dosen't make it true. It may be a grown up version of the  "imaginary freind" thing.

People of faith don't seem more happier to me, if anything the more devout their beliefs the more bloody miserable they are.

[nuphoria]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

That's a very good point, and a good scientific point too. Course' just because something is nice dosen't make it true. It may be a grown up version of the  "imaginary freind" thing.

I think it probably is for a lot of people - whatever works is good in my book though, as long as it doesn't mean you justify harming others as a result.
We non-believers could of course be wrong about it all, and I'm prepared to keep my eyes and ears open to any possible truths.

[Mr. Whippy]

I like to think of it in a different way:

I think one can observe the world around them and apply different models for different situations.  In one instance, a Scientific model seems most appropriate.  In another, some other philosophical/religious model works better.  It's not an either/or situation, but more of an overlapping of perspective.

Afterall, let's not forget the in reality, the physical world just exists.  Although the Scientific model explains it well, there is NOTHING about the physical world that dictates that it has to.  Our scientific principles may only apply to our tiny little corner of the universe.

Heck, news from my daughter (in the land of quantum physics) is that we really live in a higher degree multidimensional universe (not just 4).  The various models for this are some of the projects of CERN.  (That whole "black hole" hoopla is apparently related to this particular discussion).

IMO, the Scientific Model is a highly useful tool for explaining how the physical world works, but is still just a tool.

[Paul]

Yes, the quantum world is a very strange and interesting world indeed. The LHC should give us some good stuff!

Somebody once said (can't remember who) " All there is is physics and opinions" I kinda like that - but that's just my opinion.

[nuphoria]

Science is a tool but then are worship, churches and bibles etc aren't they?

In fact, you could argue that religion itself as a construct is a tool; a means of surviving the unanswered mysteries of our universe. It's far to easy to go start raving bonkers when you try to reason it all through without believing in a higher power!

[GraysonK]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

LOL!  Not at all.  I was just saying that maybe the reason that people don't feel they have to prove their faith to those who ask them to is because they are happy just have faith and not worry about the details.  And I'm talking about lay-people...not hardcore theological academic types.  They worry about all the details!  But they are also more open to accepting inconsistencies.  Which is odd, if you think about it.  And I'm not talking about zealots and extremists.  What brought up that particular thought was that poll about how man was created.  Some people just want to remain blissfully unaware so they don't have to prove their point to anyone.  They just say "Cuz God said so".  I don't agree with that, necessarily, but that's probably why.  
I"m personally in the camp that believes that creationism and evolution coexist...as to which came first...well, people neither side of that particular coin are going to like my answer.    

[Mr. Whippy]

Science is a tool but then are worship, churches and bibles etc aren't they?

In fact, you could argue that religion itself as a construct is a tool; a means of surviving the unanswered mysteries of our universe. It's far to easy to go start raving bonkers when you try to reason it all through without believing in a higher power!

Absolutely.  Pretty arrogant for any specific religion to state that they know the TRUE intentions of God, eh?  Highly unlikely to be some guy with a white beard and flowing robes too.  And why a humanoid form?  All highly unlikely. 

[Poncho65]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

That's a very good point, and a good scientific point too. Course' just because something is nice dosen't make it true. It may be a grown up version of the  "imaginary freind" thing.

People of faith don't seem more happier to me, if anything the more devout their beliefs the more bloody miserable they are.

Actually I am probably 1 of the happier ppl you will meet so you have no foundation in that   If you want to talk about religion then perhaps you should do less judging and more listening

Just throwing that out there

[GraysonK]

I wanted to apologize.  I think I may have stuck my foot in my mouth and I didn't mean to.  All I meant by the not having to prove your happy thing was that some people are happy or content to follow whatever they have been raised to believe and that's enough for them.  I didn't mean to imply at all that non religious people are the only happy people...just that they don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone.  That often leads to a rather narrow view of life, but it works for them. I don't agree with it, but unless it's being directed at me, I'm not going to tell them differently. I can get my dander up about a whole lot of things and religion is one of them.  But usually if that happens I''m shouting just as loudly as the other guy...telling him/her that hate, bigotry, condemnation, and segregation are not the primary message of Christianity.  But those instances are few and far between.  Generally speaking I can have a very meaningful conversation with someone even if they don't agree with me or vice versa. 

So, I'm sorry if my point wasn't made clear.  I understand that Paul and others may think that any religion is just another myth that in 1000 years (assuming humanity is still here) is going to be regarded as obsolete, but beautiful traditions.  I'm not right, I'll concede that. 

[Paul]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

That's a very good point, and a good scientific point too. Course' just because something is nice dosen't make it true. It may be a grown up version of the  "imaginary freind" thing.

People of faith don't seem more happier to me, if anything the more devout their beliefs the more bloody miserable they are.

Actually I am probably 1 of the happier ppl you will meet so you have no foundation in that   If you want to talk about religion then perhaps you should do less judging and more listening

Just throwing that out there

I can only give my opinions based on my observations: if you're saying you are very religious and very happy, fine, just say that and don't tell me how to think. 

ps your sig is not an American Indian quote I take it?

[nuphoria]

Not judging here either, even though I have had a fairly broad education on the subject and it's what works for me. 

I was raised by non-believers but in a Jewish family so took part in a lot of that. I spent 6 years at a Catholic school and came out unscathed from that too. I have held hands with pagans in stone circles, meditated with Buddhists, listened to the Jehovas at Kingdom Hall, living with a Christian partner and countless other interesting experiences - none of it is for me on a seriously committed level, that's what I do know.

I was under the impression this was a debate of our thoughts and observations, not an exercise in telling people what to do. We only have our individual experiences to draw upon and they are unique to each of us are they not?

[Poncho65]

So, are people with faith happier than those without?

Or maybe there's a catch 22 there as perhaps people who are unhappy might be more likely to desire faith in something.... just throwing it out there

That's a very good point, and a good scientific point too. Course' just because something is nice dosen't make it true. It may be a grown up version of the  "imaginary freind" thing.

People of faith don't seem more happier to me, if anything the more devout their beliefs the more bloody miserable they are.

Actually I am probably 1 of the happier ppl you will meet so you have no foundation in that   If you want to talk about religion then perhaps you should do less judging and more listening

Just throwing that out there

I can only give my opinions based on my observations: if you're saying you are very religious and very happy, fine, just say that and don't tell me how to think. 

ps your sig is not an American Indian quote I take it?

I do have American Indian heritage not alot but some

I am not telling you how to think but I have never pushed my beliefs on this forum not once it is a way of life for me as your belief or lack thereof is your way of life seems to me you are taking offense to ppl telling of there faith and beliefs and your the person who started the thread to have a polite discussion and would seem you have been anything but that too my beliefs as I have said nothing of yours out of the way

[Poncho65]

I wanted to apologize.  I think I may have stuck my foot in my mouth and I didn't mean to.  All I meant by the not having to prove your happy thing was that some people are happy or content to follow whatever they have been raised to believe and that's enough for them.  I didn't mean to imply at all that non religious people are the only happy people...just that they don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone.  That often leads to a rather narrow view of life, but it works for them. I don't agree with it, but unless it's being directed at me, I'm not going to tell them differently. I can get my dander up about a whole lot of things and religion is one of them.  But usually if that happens I''m shouting just as loudly as the other guy...telling him/her that hate, bigotry, condemnation, and segregation are not the primary message of Christianity.  But those instances are few and far between.  Generally speaking I can have a very meaningful conversation with someone even if they don't agree with me or vice versa. 

So, I'm sorry if my point wasn't made clear.  I understand that Paul and others may think that any religion is just another myth that in 1000 years (assuming humanity is still here) is going to be regarded as obsolete, but beautiful traditions.  I'm not right, I'll concede that. 

Not judging here either, even though I have had a fairly broad education on the subject and it's what works for me. 

I was raised by non-believers but in a Jewish family so took part in a lot of that. I spent 6 years at a Catholic school and came out unscathed from that too. I have held hands with pagans in stone circles, meditated with Buddhists, listened to the Jehovas at Kingdom Hall, living with a Christian partner and countless other interesting experiences - none of it is for me on a seriously committed level, that's what I do know.

I was under the impression this was a debate of our thoughts and observations, not an exercise in telling people what to do. We only have our individual experiences to draw upon and they are unique to each of us are they not?

If either was for me I have taken no offense to anything said by either was just putting out my POV as well 

[american lockpicker]

Hello All

A few days back I made some comments of about a people of a certain faith, since then I discovered that one of my friends on another forum is of that faith. I would like to admit I was wrong when I judged everyone who is a muslim based on the actions of a small radical minority. I should not have done that. While its not easy to unlearn prejudices I am now willing to start now. I still don't like radicals of any religion(including my own) and that won't change but from now on I will try to be more tolerant as they do not represent everyone who shares some of the same beliefs that they do.

AL