"Originality" of SOG's new knives?

[Benner]

Whilst I can see what has been said, look at the handle on that SS one. The lines are EXACTLY the same.  Hardly a tribute is it?

TBH I see plenty of other knife manufacturers making their own designs and I very much doubt we have just completely ran out.  Poor show if you ask me.

[hawkchucker]

The problem on the bottom three is the blades mostly they are exact copies! The two top spydie knockoffs are bad, but the blades on the others are pure theft.

[Santos]

Whilst I can see what has been said, look at the handle on that SS one. The lines are EXACTLY the same.  Hardly a tribute is it?

TBH I see plenty of other knife manufacturers making their own designs and I very much doubt we have just completely ran out.  Poor show if you ask me.

so why would someone re-invent the wheel to make a car? I get the smurfs when people tell me my suzuki copied willys.... but know nothing about the bantam jeep...

[Benner]

The point is Sal designed that knife for Spyderco to sell at Spyderco to make Spyderco money.  SOG have done sweet FA apart from cut a little (by the way crappy looking) slit in a OH hole and are still hoping to make money of of Sal's design - Sal getting nothing at all for HIS work.

The "wheel" example you said is a completely different thing.  The wheel is just a wheel, it works, but a knife can be designed in thousands of ways and yet SOG decide that they can't be bothered so they would just rip off someone else.

[DaveK]

The point is Sal designed that knife for Spyderco to sell at Spyderco to make Spyderco money.  SOG have done sweet FA apart from cut a little (by the way crappy looking) slit in a OH hole and are still hoping to make money of of Sal's design - Sal getting nothing at all for HIS work.

Just to play devil's advocate - where do you stand on the Cold Steel Kukri? Or the many Buck 100 clones?

I see both sides of the argument here tbh, some basic knife designs have been interpreted by all the manufacturers at some time and I'm wondering at what point does this become "ripping off" another maker's design. Does the design have to be a certain age, or is there some other criteria?

Also, why don't knife manufacturers patent their designs to make this kind of thing clearly illegal and remove the grey areas.

[Sean]

I remember years ago Spyderco had it out with Benchmade because they started putting the
Spyderco Patented hole in some of their blades.  As far as I know what followed was Spyderco lost that
battle if memory serves me as a hole couldn't be patented?  That is why you see Benchmade models
sporting the circle cutout.    Anyhow, this comes from the little I've read on other forums.

[J-sews]

I'm glad to see a few devil's advocates speaking up in this thread, and also that the discussion is being conducted in a polite reasoned manner. That way folks who know nothing about knives and knife history (like me) can read both sides and make up our minds for ourselves.

[Poncho65]

I'm glad to see a few devil's advocates speaking up in this thread, and also that the discussion is being conducted in a polite reasoned manner. That way folks who know nothing about knives and knife history (like me) can read both sides and make up our minds for ourselves.

That's the reason I hadn't said anything yet I can see how I would be mad if I thought a design of mine had been ripped off but also that you are always gonna step on peoples feet if your in a business of this sort eventually

I also don't know much about the history of these types of knifes and would like to hear more about it here

I believe it has been said already but with slippies you kind of just expect all the brands to have the same ones I like a congress pattern and many different companies make that 1 as well as the stockman, whittler, peanut etc.  but like I said it's expected

The pics do look like very close copies to me but perhaps that was the intent I haven't ever really looked into that type of knife so I can't really look at a knife and say it's a Spydie or Benchmade or a SOG unless the companies name is on it somewhere let alone what type of knife it is

[Santos]

Yeah sizing and shape can be very deceiving on "teh internetz", take the original Bundeswehr taschenmesser 'GAK' for example. Some turned up in the post today and i was genuinely suprised how big and chunky they were. I have handled 111mm saks in the pass and have seen comparisson photos but untill i had it in my hand i just kept thinking it was an elongated 93mm sak. 

 Interesting (if i got it right ) about SOG saying about the Spyderco Thumb hole actually being done around the 1930's... which would make it a misnomer!

I am kind of glad i am no longer a sufferer of the knife fetish. I like knives, there are a few i still want to get, but if i don't use it , i don't keep it. Shelf/Drawer queens are such a waste.

[Benner]

The point is Sal designed that knife for Spyderco to sell at Spyderco to make Spyderco money.  SOG have done sweet FA apart from cut a little (by the way crappy looking) slit in a OH hole and are still hoping to make money of of Sal's design - Sal getting nothing at all for HIS work.

Just to play devil's advocate - where do you stand on the Cold Steel Kukri? Or the many Buck 100 clones?

I see both sides of the argument here tbh, some basic knife designs have been interpreted by all the manufacturers at some time and I'm wondering at what point does this become "ripping off" another maker's design. Does the design have to be a certain age, or is there some other criteria?

Also, why don't knife manufacturers patent their designs to make this kind of thing clearly illegal and remove the grey areas.

Cold Steel Kukri?  In comparison to what?

[Gareth]

The point is Sal designed that knife for Spyderco to sell at Spyderco to make Spyderco money.  SOG have done sweet FA apart from cut a little (by the way crappy looking) slit in a OH hole and are still hoping to make money of of Sal's design - Sal getting nothing at all for HIS work.

Just to play devil's advocate - where do you stand on the Cold Steel Kukri? Or the many Buck 100 clones?

I see both sides of the argument here tbh, some basic knife designs have been interpreted by all the manufacturers at some time and I'm wondering at what point does this become "ripping off" another maker's design. Does the design have to be a certain age, or is there some other criteria?

Also, why don't knife manufacturers patent their designs to make this kind of thing clearly illegal and remove the grey areas.

Cold Steel Kukri?  In comparison to what?

I think the point is that Cold Steel certainly didn't invent the Kukri blade shape and yet no-one is shooting them down in flames for copying it.  Not for their kukri anyway.

Actually Cold Steel are the perfect example of a company that everybody knows that is perfectly happy to borrow others designs.  It seems to me there is a distinction that we draw that says it's OK to re-make "traditional" blade patterns, but not OK to do the same with modern designs.

Cold Steel Finn Bear?  Traditional scandi knife. OK.


Cold Steel Canadian Belt Knife?  Grohmann knock off. Not so nice.


Yet at some point in history someone invented the scandi blade style, and I bet he never got any royalties when others made the same knife.

In the end what I'm saying is that a good blade design is a good blade design, and at some point it's going to be made by somebody else, but I'm not necessarily happy about the way SOG has gone about it either.  Also Spyderco, Benchmade and the others are all big boys and can deal with it however they want.  We, as the knife buying public, get to vote with out wallets and not buy the things if they offend us.

[DaveK]

The point is Sal designed that knife for Spyderco to sell at Spyderco to make Spyderco money.  SOG have done sweet FA apart from cut a little (by the way crappy looking) slit in a OH hole and are still hoping to make money of of Sal's design - Sal getting nothing at all for HIS work.

Just to play devil's advocate - where do you stand on the Cold Steel Kukri? Or the many Buck 100 clones?

I see both sides of the argument here tbh, some basic knife designs have been interpreted by all the manufacturers at some time and I'm wondering at what point does this become "ripping off" another maker's design. Does the design have to be a certain age, or is there some other criteria?

Also, why don't knife manufacturers patent their designs to make this kind of thing clearly illegal and remove the grey areas.

Cold Steel Kukri?  In comparison to what?

I think the point is that Cold Steel certainly didn't invent the Kukri blade shape and yet no-one is shooting them down in flames for copying it.  Not for their kukri anyway.

Not really a point I was making, more a genuine question (as someone who has no particular loyalties), but yes that's what I was asking.

Put another way, Cold Steel have produced their Kukri - which was someone elses design and I think that's perceived as OK or even a good thing as it brings a "traditional" design into modern use. To someone like me (i.e. not that clued up on knives, and having no particular loyalty to any brand) the difference between this scenario and the SOG v Spyderco debate would appear to be that the Kukri is ancient, whereas the SOG/Spydie is obviously a lot more recent - is that the factor that makes it unacceptable in some people's eyes, or is there something else?

Perhaps the many different Buck 110 clones out there illustrate my question better as the design is more "traditional" than the pics in the OP of this thread, but obviously more recent than the Kukri.

It's possible that I'm trying to rationalise the "issue" too much, I'm sort of likening it to the development of drugs, where the developing company has exclusive rights to manufacture it (for seven years I think?), but after that, anyone can manufacture paracetomol, ibuprofen etc.

I'll just stress that I don't have a strong opinion on what SOG are doing here - I'm just trying to understand what constitutes the opinions that they are "ripping off" others' designs. In turn that leads to the question "if this is considered illegal or unethical, why do knife designers not patent their designs"?

Hopefully that explains better

[SlackOne]

More than anything else, I think people are balking at this because SOG is a "reputable" company.  You expect such companies to *not* blatantly copy current, on-the-market designs.  Ape them?  Sure, everyone is going to bend to market trends.  But making products that are nearly identical is something a lot of folks associate with off-brand companies that you find in pawn shops and gas station kiosks.  Frankly, with this and a couple of other dubious business decisions they've made, SOG is in danger of sliding down that slippery slope that Gerber slid down.  Gerber is seemingly trying to recover, but it's going to be a while before some of the shoddy designs and bad quality gear they've churned out in recent years regains some of their name cache.

[Medic82]

I can se the similarities between the knifes but I can also se some of the small differences on the “copied” knifes from SOG. I can see why people say that SOG is blatantly copying knifes but how many ways can you really make a knife?

I really like SOG and they have a special place in my life ever since I discovered them at the age of 12, so I am really concerned about where SOG is heading.

[Sean]

I remember on blade forums awhile ago (I think it was) I wouldn't want to quote it but a Kershaw
mod/rep was taking the usual ribbing on some of his new products that were coming out of China
instead of the USA, and then it began... pages of "back-and-forth" of why did Kershaw do this
and why did they do that, cheap out by taking primarily State-side made blades out of the country
to produce.
I wish I could find the thread but basically the Representative came on and said something to this
effect... Do you think you guys are the only one's that buy our knives (forumites)?  Do you think
that you have the majority of market share on our products?
Anyhow, it kind of stops one to think for a minute.  I really think that the one of the things a forum
is helpful in doing is putting forth constructive ideas to help manufacturers decide how
to improve a product and that is a good thing!
I  do really think with Sog moving more and more out of the US like alot of former primarily US knife
companies Cold Steel, Spyderco, Kershaw, etc, that we purchase from you will see more and more of
the same, copies of knives that sell well to the "world" market.
Living in Canada I do know what a Grohmann belt knife looks like and a bit of their history out of
Nova Scotia and yes Cold Steel has made a copy of it.
"All" the knife companies copy to some extent or other and being smart I'm sure they know their
boundary's legally when attempting this.  The bottom line is a copy can be made at a cheaper price
point, and sold to the world cheaper, and this is just good economic business sense.

[DaveK]

There's a point in there Sean, that I think get missed over and over by all of us on forum like these, and that is we are a miniscule minority of the people that buy tools and knives - we're insignificant to a product's success or failure, beyond the fact that these days some people will stumble across our thoughts after googling a particular knife or tool.

Equally important, is the fact that the "significant majority" won't analyse the things anything like we do. They'll probably buy a knife that looks good and fit for the job they have in hand, and most importantly is priced sensibly in their mind.

An example. Apparently over 10,000,000 PSTs were sold by Leatherman. Even allowing for the fact that a few of us here have several, that leaves more than 9,999,000 unaccounted for, that were probably bought by people who have no appreciation of what they were inspired by, who invented it, where it was made (I'm guessing half would have been sold outside the US - not sure but it would have been plenty), and so on.

With stats like that, I'm guessing these companies (who exist to make a profit) can put up with a fair bit of abuse on a few internet forums!

[Sean]

Yes Dave I agree. 

[Benner]

Just going back to the Kukri thing, I personally see that as a completely different kettle of fish.  A Kukri is a knife style that has many variations.  It wasn't made by Bob Kukri for Kukrico (names may be made up there  ) it is a "style" of blade that many people have used and put there own take on.  A bit like a machete or a parang for example.  Cold Steel have made a Kukri knife, but apart from the fact they have made it fold and designed the whole lot with a lock etc, they have only kinda copied a Kukri shape.  I see that as a similar thing as to doing a drop point knife. That isn't ripping of Mr P. Droppoint is it?

Cold Steel have though made blatant rip offs of Grohmanns Canadian Belt knife and Opinels with the Twistmaster.  Perhaps those are better examples.  Although I have those and probably look 2 faced with my comments here, I do not like what they have done there and Cold Steel has quite a bad reputation in some areas (the USN for example) for doing as such (and quite understandibly so).

The way I personally see it is that SOG haven't copied a "style" as in the Kukri example, they have copied a knife model.  The Spyderco Police isn't a "style" of knife, it is a knife design and copying it is ripping off someone elses design.  This applies to the Buck's you mentioned Dave.  I would consider those equally as "bad".

Overall, in a way it is a back handed compliment really as SOG see it worthy enough to copy.  However, I just personally see it as being a little pathetic that an actual knife company really cannot think of anything better themselves than to put a slit in a OH hole, which really was added to make it look slightly unique, not because they have deemed that as a good thing.

Poor show if you ask me.

[DaveK]

Hmmm - doesn't really answer my question.

At some point, the Kukri was someone's design, and someone must have been the first to copy it. I was thinking about this one rather than a folder with a similarly shaped blade.



Obviously, the first copy of that original design would have been a long time ago, and now loads of people have their own interpretations or direct copies of it.

At what point did it become OK, and cease to be a "rip-off" or theft of a design?

[Benner]

I guess age does play a part (sorry was in folder mode before).  Mr Kukri or the company behind it (if you get me) are long gone and whilst that doesn't necessarily make it OK, Cold Steel's Kukri isn't putting someone else possibly out of pocket and competing for sales.  Sal still sells the Police model yet SOG still deem it OK to sell this one.

If Vic sold a PST copy but just had more holes drilled in the handles, we wouldn't see that as being OK would we?  I know I wouldn't.

[Sazabi]

I guess age does play a part (sorry was in folder mode before).  Mr Kukri or the company behind it (if you get me) are long gone and whilst that doesn't necessarily make it OK, Cold Steel's Kukri isn't putting someone else possibly out of pocket and competing for sales.  Sal still sells the Police model yet SOG still deem it OK to sell this one.

If Vic sold a PST copy but just had more holes drilled in the handles, we wouldn't see that as being OK would we?  I know I wouldn't.

I'd not see it as being ok, either, but if they fixed the harsh edges and gave it stronger jaws, replacing one of the several flat head drives with an awl and keeping scissors on it, a la the PST II, I know I'd buy one, since Leatherman isn't interested in such compact, tool-laden designs anymore. -_-

[Benner]

But SOG haven't even done that.  From the pics, they seem to have changed the blade shape a bit and cut a bit out the hole (as in the "Police" example).  I doubt either of those were regarded as improvements, more just trying to make it a bit different.  The handle shape, lock, material, is all the same.

[Sazabi]

But SOG haven't even done that.  From the pics, they seem to have changed the blade shape a bit and cut a bit out the hole (as in the "Police" example).  I doubt either of those were regarded as improvements, more just trying to make it a bit different.  The handle shape, lock, material, is all the same.

Oh yes, I know, Benner.  I was just daydreaming of how neat a PST III would be, whether from Leatherman or Victorinox.   

[Benner]

I know you know.  Was just speaking (writing) out loud. 

[Sazabi]

I know you know.  Was just speaking (writing) out loud. 

Ah. 

[J-sews]

Wow, I just read through that Bladeforums thread and those guys are really napalming SOG over this whole copycat thing. Surely SOG can't be surprised by this negative feedback though can they?

Among the comments criticizing SOG I'm also picking up a certain feeling of betrayel as well. SOG built their reputation as being a leader and an innovator, and now for them to be blatently copying designs that are associated with other companies has got to be pretty upsetting to their (former) fans.

[Fisting_Chili]

“You can be assured that we at SOG work hard to protect our trademark and intellectual properties, while at the same time working to respect the intellectual property of others.”

I really noticed that when I bought a counterfeit SOG knife and reported the seller to SOG, not a single word from them, they didn’t even send me an e-mail confirming that they had gotten my mail. I even mailed them a second time with some more information about the seller but still no word.

I also bought a Spyderco from the same seller that was also counterfeit so I reported him to Spyderco also, they on the other hand gave me a quick response that the mail had been sent to the legal department and within 2 weeks I got a mail from the head of the legal department thanking me for the mail.

How can you recognize a knife as a counterfeit?
Thanks!

[Sean]

Sometimes you have to look very closely because some of these counterfeiters are putting the
name of the actual company and their model on the tools/knives so it makes it harder to
actually detect them as fakes.  Usually though upon closer inspection which isn't always
possible because you might buy it mail order or perhaps ebay it could be detected.  Some are
very poor copies though.
Pricing has something to do with it so if you see a tool or knife that is priced way below the
normal then that would be another reason to be alerted to it possibly being a counterfeit.
There was a good post with pictures of a the real Victorinox Rescue vs. fake on here not
all that long ago and it wasn't all that evident telling the difference.  Your best defense against
getting stung with a fake or counterfeit...?  This forum!  

[Medic82]

“You can be assured that we at SOG work hard to protect our trademark and intellectual properties, while at the same time working to respect the intellectual property of others.”

I really noticed that when I bought a counterfeit SOG knife and reported the seller to SOG, not a single word from them, they didn’t even send me an e-mail confirming that they had gotten my mail. I even mailed them a second time with some more information about the seller but still no word.

I also bought a Spyderco from the same seller that was also counterfeit so I reported him to Spyderco also, they on the other hand gave me a quick response that the mail had been sent to the legal department and within 2 weeks I got a mail from the head of the legal department thanking me for the mail.

How can you recognize a knife as a counterfeit?
Thanks!

In my case it was pretty simple cause the quality of the knifes that I bought where crap, could feel that the steel was really crap and the edges on the knifes was dull. The scales on the SOG knife was riveted together while on the original they are screwed together. The “kydex” sheet had no belt clip on it and the word SOG where just etched in while on the original it was stamped out.
The Spyderco knife was not even part of the Spyderco lineup, it was a mix between 2 models.

So in that case it was pretty simple to spot and I was lucky enough to get my money back .

[Chako]

SOG will improve on those designs by carpet bombing the knives with their logo. That should be enough to appease everyone.

In all seriousness...

Knives like the Kukri and other older designs are regional knives that date back a long time. Nobody owns the patents on them because by the time such concepts flared up,  you couldn’t exactly patent a national design. Hence why there are so many variations. That and besides, patents would only run for so long. These older designs predate that anyhow.

Good read so far. I see both sides as I don't have any stake in the discussion at all. It does appear that SOG is stealing some designs of the competition. I don't see the tanto as a direct copy, but the others....yes.