Damascus steel...a huge price for aesthetics?

[Raukodur]

Ok, this is interesting, I found this article on damascus steel:

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Damascus_steel

Basically, what it is saying is that the original process of creating this steel, which originated around damascus, with the metal maybe imported from India (what is currently India, Pakistan and Bangladesh), has been lost.

What we currently have is something called 'pattern welding' which produces a similar pattern on the metal to the original process, but the internal structure is different.

If this is the case (and I have no idea if it is), than all the damascus knives you can buy nowadays, for exorbitant prices, are charging you for the 'look' of the metal, in a similar fashion to BO, or TINI coating. Yet they are marketing the knives as having been crafted from an 'ancient process' which makes the knives categorically superior to other knives. Which may all be bull.

What do you think?

I will be travelling to Pakistan on my elective in a couple of weeks time, I will be trying quite hard to find some sort of traditional knife maker and finding out more about this.

[J-sews]

I'm rather new to damascus knives, but I think its all about the appearance. (although I have read some claims of improved cutting action due to the "micro-serrations" effect of the alternating bands of steel)

Not sure if I buy that though.

[Mr. Whippy]

I thought the original Damascus steels were superior due to being less brittle yet holding an edge as well as the the other steels of the time (medieval times). 

As for now?  I think it's appearance and historical context (although originally Damascus wasn't a stainless steel).

[Raukodur]

This is my point, it seems as if it is all false advertising, with buyers thinking they are getting damascus steel, whereas all they are getting is a lookalike, with none of the improved physical properties that made the knives and swords made using that process and metal so special (e.g. claims they could cut through other swords, and retain their edge).

The reason why I bring this up is because I would be very interested in trying to acquire a damascus blade, but it is disheartening to think that I would be paying a small fortune for what is pretty much a fake.

[Mr. Whippy]

It is my understanding that at least some of the modern Damascus steels are indistinguishable from the ancient steel.  Obviously this does NOT apply to the Damascus stainless steels.

[Chako]

Yes and no.

It is true that modern Damascus steel is not the real deal, as I do believe that the real stuff was lost in the 1700s when metal stock with the proper compositions dried up. With that said, you have to factor in the labour intensive process of pattern welding. You have to fold the steel quite a few times to get those patterns. The extra price not only reflects the skill of the metal smith and the increased labour, but its beauty as a purely aesthetic piece of art.

[Raukodur]

fair enough, but then it should not be labelled damascus steel IMO, because it is not, it should be called pattern welded steel which looks like damascus steel. I bet you they wouldnt be able to charge such high prices for it then, fact remains, majority of the people who buy these items probably believe they are getting authentic damascus steel.

[J-sews]

I can't believe the old damascus steel - of inconsistant chemical makeup and beat on with a hammer over an open flame - was stronger than even the lowest grade modern knife steel. Surely the only reason folded-metal blades (of any kind) are still being made today is because they look pretty?

[jzmtl]

fair enough, but then it should not be labelled damascus steel IMO, because it is not, it should be called pattern welded steel which looks like damascus steel. I bet you they wouldnt be able to charge such high prices for it then, fact remains, majority of the people who buy these items probably believe they are getting authentic damascus steel.

Well not really. Europeans of medieval times couldn't recreate the real damascus brought back from mid east, so they imitated the look by pattern welding and called it damascus. So essentially the damascus today is same as damascus as it was in medieval europe.

I can't believe the old damascus steel - of inconsistant chemical makeup and beat on with a hammer over an open flame - was stronger than even the lowest grade modern knife steel. Surely the only reason folded-metal blades (of any kind) are still being made today is because they look pretty?

Probably just the mystics of it, same as those "ancient techniques from africa" used by psychics in classified ads.

[Raukodur]

I can't believe the old damascus steel - of inconsistant chemical makeup and beat on with a hammer over an open flame - was stronger than even the lowest grade modern knife steel. Surely the only reason folded-metal blades (of any kind) are still being made today is because they look pretty?

Bob, if you think about it, its the same as the art of making Katanas. The process is not precise, and you would not get the same result every time, because the ore would differ in its properties, the way you smelted it would affect the purified metal you got out, the impurities you added to it would affect its balance of flexibility and hardness, and the sword maker and polisher would affect the shape and edge of the weapon. So lots of variables. BUT, the weapon that gets to the battle field, and the weapon that gets prized and handed down generations would be the one that had turned out to have the EXACT right combination of all these factors to produce an amazing weapon. The rest, which didnt come out exactly right, would not be so prized, and not be with us today.

Which makes sense, so the ancient (authentic) katana or damascus blade you can buy today, that has seen battle, would be the truly exceptional piece, and worth the huge price they sell for.

But if you had someone produce the same item today using this process, more than likely you would end up with a far inferior product.

And of course, as we are discussing here, the process itself is no longer with us, mainly because I believe we dont have the same ore, or are not exactly sure what was in the ore originally used, and dont know the exact methods used to create these blades.

Thats my take on it anyway.

If that is the case what does it mean?

Well, you cannot buy damascus unless you are paying a fortune to buy an ancient weapon that was actually crafted around that time, and ideally saw battle and was passed down generations in a family.
What you buy nowadays is pattern welded steel, which may have special properties (similar to the high carbon steel knives e.g.) BUT because it looks like damascus, and is advertised wrongly as such, you pay an exorbitant price.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Back in ancient times it gave you the relative best of both worlds ie resilience and edge retention which wasn't really bettered till the Chinese then the Japanese finalized there methods of sword making via differential tempering

Now it's more about aesthetics imo.

[Magnus]

Ok, we need to distinguish between two things here, real damascus steel (that was made in Damascus), and pattern welded steel, that Japanese swords were made of, and is often marketed as damascus steel today.

real damascus steel is indeed a completely lost process, and more importantly the mines dried up that had the specific ore required to make it.  This was actually pretty much just a historical fluke that it happened to be so good. The process they used to make it should have produced an extremely brittle steel, however due to the unusual nature of the chemical make-up of the ore, it became extremely hard and flexible.  This happened because by complete chance the combination of the specific ore and the process they used crated carbon nano-tubes* that gave the swords their virtual indestructible properties.

pattern welded steel on the other hand simply gains some strength from the layers of hard, but brittle steel and soft, but flexible steel.  This is extremely useful in swords as it gives you a razor sharp cutting edge with a very durable blade.  On knives however this effect is far less useful.  As has been mentioned some benefit may be gained from micro-serrations created by the layered structure of the steel, however this is probably negligible.  This (confusingly) is what all modern knives that are marketed as "damascus" steel are made of.

Also it is worth noting that the Japanese were not the only people to create pattern welded swords, the Vikings were quite fond of the process too.  They would make swords by twisting bars of steel together and then forge welding them into a sword.

So, to summarise, yes, today, except in swords, it is mostly used for aesthetic purposes.  I still love Damascus knives though, to quote William Morris "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.".

*http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

[Raukodur]

Ok, we need to distinguish between two things here, real damascus steel (that was made in Damascus), and pattern welded steel, that Japanese swords were made of, and is often marketed as damascus steel today.

real damascus steel is indeed a completely lost process, and more importantly the mines dried up that had the specific ore required to make it.  This was actually pretty much just a historical fluke that it happened to be so good. The process they used to make it should have produced an extremely brittle steel, however due to the unusual nature of the chemical make-up of the ore, it became extremely hard and flexible.  This happened because by complete chance the combination of the specific ore and the process they used crated carbon nano-tubes* that gave the swords their virtual indestructible properties.

pattern welded steel on the other hand simply gains some strength from the layers of hard, but brittle steel and soft, but flexible steel.  This is extremely useful in swords as it gives you a razor sharp cutting edge with a very durable blade.  On knives however this effect is far less useful.  As has been mentioned some benefit may be gained from micro-serrations created by the layered structure of the steel, however this is probably negligible.  This (confusingly) is what all modern knives that are marketed as "damascus" steel are made of.

Also it is worth noting that the Japanese were not the only people to create pattern welded swords, the Vikings were quite fond of the process too.  They would make swords by twisting bars of steel together and then forge welding them into a sword.

So, to summarise, yes, today, except in swords, it is mostly used for aesthetic purposes.  I still love Damascus knives though, to quote William Morris "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.".

*http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

Yep, this is exactly what I am saying, only I believe a lot of customers get ripped off, because they believe they are buying real damascus steel, whereas they are buying pattern welded steel. It is similar to real diamonds, and artificially produced real diamonds. Both are diamonds, but one is ancient, the other is mass produced.

People buy damascus stuff thinking it is the same ancient process, and in effect the same metal, but it isn't, the confusion comes because of false advertising.

[Zack]

The reason pattern welded or "Damascus" steel is so expensive to own in knife or sword form now, is that it takes an expert a long time to make.  I know our very own Ray Kerr deals in pattern welded steel, maybe he will chime in with a response.

[Zack]

Ok, we need to distinguish between two things here, real damascus steel (that was made in Damascus), and pattern welded steel, that Japanese swords were made of, and is often marketed as damascus steel today.

real damascus steel is indeed a completely lost process, and more importantly the mines dried up that had the specific ore required to make it.  This was actually pretty much just a historical fluke that it happened to be so good. The process they used to make it should have produced an extremely brittle steel, however due to the unusual nature of the chemical make-up of the ore, it became extremely hard and flexible.  This happened because by complete chance the combination of the specific ore and the process they used crated carbon nano-tubes* that gave the swords their virtual indestructible properties.

pattern welded steel on the other hand simply gains some strength from the layers of hard, but brittle steel and soft, but flexible steel.  This is extremely useful in swords as it gives you a razor sharp cutting edge with a very durable blade.  On knives however this effect is far less useful.  As has been mentioned some benefit may be gained from micro-serrations created by the layered structure of the steel, however this is probably negligible.  This (confusingly) is what all modern knives that are marketed as "damascus" steel are made of.

Also it is worth noting that the Japanese were not the only people to create pattern welded swords, the Vikings were quite fond of the process too.  They would make swords by twisting bars of steel together and then forge welding them into a sword.

So, to summarise, yes, today, except in swords, it is mostly used for aesthetic purposes.  I still love Damascus knives though, to quote William Morris "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.".

*http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

Yep, this is exactly what I am saying, only I believe a lot of customers get ripped off, because they believe they are buying real damascus steel, whereas they are buying pattern welded steel. It is similar to real diamonds, and artificially produced real diamonds. Both are diamonds, but one is ancient, the other is mass produced.

People buy damascus stuff thinking it is the same ancient process, and in effect the same metal, but it isn't, the confusion comes because of false advertising.

Artificially produced diamonds would be cubic zirconia and is nothing like a real diamond.  Modern damascus steel takes the ancient process and uses the ore that is available today.  I don't think it false advertising, just a revamp on ancient technology.

[Magnus]

Ok, we need to distinguish between two things here, real damascus steel (that was made in Damascus), and pattern welded steel, that Japanese swords were made of, and is often marketed as damascus steel today.

real damascus steel is indeed a completely lost process, and more importantly the mines dried up that had the specific ore required to make it.  This was actually pretty much just a historical fluke that it happened to be so good. The process they used to make it should have produced an extremely brittle steel, however due to the unusual nature of the chemical make-up of the ore, it became extremely hard and flexible.  This happened because by complete chance the combination of the specific ore and the process they used crated carbon nano-tubes* that gave the swords their virtual indestructible properties.

pattern welded steel on the other hand simply gains some strength from the layers of hard, but brittle steel and soft, but flexible steel.  This is extremely useful in swords as it gives you a razor sharp cutting edge with a very durable blade.  On knives however this effect is far less useful.  As has been mentioned some benefit may be gained from micro-serrations created by the layered structure of the steel, however this is probably negligible.  This (confusingly) is what all modern knives that are marketed as "damascus" steel are made of.

Also it is worth noting that the Japanese were not the only people to create pattern welded swords, the Vikings were quite fond of the process too.  They would make swords by twisting bars of steel together and then forge welding them into a sword.

So, to summarise, yes, today, except in swords, it is mostly used for aesthetic purposes.  I still love Damascus knives though, to quote William Morris "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.".

*http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

Yep, this is exactly what I am saying, only I believe a lot of customers get ripped off, because they believe they are buying real damascus steel, whereas they are buying pattern welded steel. It is similar to real diamonds, and artificially produced real diamonds. Both are diamonds, but one is ancient, the other is mass produced.

People buy damascus stuff thinking it is the same ancient process, and in effect the same metal, but it isn't, the confusion comes because of false advertising.

the are no diamonds in any damascus steel, and no carbon nanotubes in modern pattern welded steel.

The reason pattern welded or "Damascus" steel is so expensive to own in knife or sword form now, is that it takes an expert a long time to make.  I know our very own Ray Kerr deals in pattern welded steel, maybe he will chime in with a response.

actually, it takes about ten minutes with a modern gas forge and hydraulic press.

[Magnus]

Ok, we need to distinguish between two things here, real damascus steel (that was made in Damascus), and pattern welded steel, that Japanese swords were made of, and is often marketed as damascus steel today.

real damascus steel is indeed a completely lost process, and more importantly the mines dried up that had the specific ore required to make it.  This was actually pretty much just a historical fluke that it happened to be so good. The process they used to make it should have produced an extremely brittle steel, however due to the unusual nature of the chemical make-up of the ore, it became extremely hard and flexible.  This happened because by complete chance the combination of the specific ore and the process they used crated carbon nano-tubes* that gave the swords their virtual indestructible properties.

pattern welded steel on the other hand simply gains some strength from the layers of hard, but brittle steel and soft, but flexible steel.  This is extremely useful in swords as it gives you a razor sharp cutting edge with a very durable blade.  On knives however this effect is far less useful.  As has been mentioned some benefit may be gained from micro-serrations created by the layered structure of the steel, however this is probably negligible.  This (confusingly) is what all modern knives that are marketed as "damascus" steel are made of.

Also it is worth noting that the Japanese were not the only people to create pattern welded swords, the Vikings were quite fond of the process too.  They would make swords by twisting bars of steel together and then forge welding them into a sword.

So, to summarise, yes, today, except in swords, it is mostly used for aesthetic purposes.  I still love Damascus knives though, to quote William Morris "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.".

*http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

Yep, this is exactly what I am saying, only I believe a lot of customers get ripped off, because they believe they are buying real damascus steel, whereas they are buying pattern welded steel. It is similar to real diamonds, and artificially produced real diamonds. Both are diamonds, but one is ancient, the other is mass produced.

People buy damascus stuff thinking it is the same ancient process, and in effect the same metal, but it isn't, the confusion comes because of false advertising.

Artificially produced diamonds would be cubic zirconia and is nothing like a real diamond.  Modern damascus steel takes the ancient process and uses the ore that is available today.  I don't think it false advertising, just a revamp on ancient technology.

You can make artificial real diamonds, and they are more perfect than natural diamonds.

[Raukodur]

umm I never said there were any diamonds in damascus steel, I was using that as an analogy 

[Mr. Whippy]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it was my impression that modern Damascus steel is supposed to have the temper and flexibility of ancient Damascus, through a process analogous to what the Japanese used to make sword steel (folding essentially) and displaying the aesthetics of Damascus steel.

If the modern Damascus does this, then I believe they are fulfilling what is promised...

[Magnus]

umm I never said there were any diamonds in damascus steel, I was using that as an analogy 

sorry, my bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it was my impression that modern Damascus steel is supposed to have the temper and flexibility of ancient Damascus, through a process analogous to what the Japanese used to make sword steel (folding essentially) and displaying the aesthetics of Damascus steel.

If the modern Damascus does this, then I believe they are fulfilling what is promised...

It is just a confusion over terms, modern "damascus" knives should just be called "pattern welded", which is the same process that Japanese smiths used.  The confusion has arisen because people assumed they were the same thing given that the look similar.

[Raukodur]

But as you explained quite well in one of your previous answers, it is not just the name, i.e. pattern welded steel which looks like damascus, and damascus steel are NOT the same, as far as I know. There is a difference in their internal structure, and in their properties as knife/sword steel.

[nuphoria]

Disclaimer: I've been awake for about 20mins and the coffee hasn't quite kicked in over the meds yet, so....  

I have read this thread and still find myself struggling a little with one point. Regarding the cost of damascus steel - does the process of making it (modern and fast version), equate to it being "worth" more than regular steels? So if you take in to account any extra expense in time, materials and equipment etc, should we be paying more for it anyway?
Ultimately the price someone is prepared to pay, is what it's worth I think.

Personally I think it's quite beautiful and worth a few more quid. I love the look of most folded/welded metals like mokume and such, and certainly find them aesthetically superior to a plain metal, but that of course has nothing to do with the function as a tool.

I didn't know the Vikings were at it too - very interesting info here chaps  


Regarding diamonds (OT but I find it interesting), the synthetic ones are expensive but "real". They are grown from tiny diamond "seeds" and a carbon medium and reach very good prices due to their potential size and clarity. I believe they are laser engraved with information pertaining to their manufacturing so they can't be passed as natural ones. You can also have your ashes made in to a diamond after your demise - I love this idea (also expensive), but imagine if you lost the ring! Oh crap, I dropped my ex down the sink  

[Raukodur]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

[Magnus]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

well, to be fair, to most laymen damascus = samurai sword.

so they are getting exactly what they paid for.

[J-sews]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

Sorry to dissect your post Rauk, but I'm even skeptical of this one assumption here. From what I've heard, modern "damascus" is indeed all about appearance, and so makers choose the two types of steel not based on what would be the best properties for a knife, but based on what would yield the most desirable light-dark contrast between the layers.

So I've not done any testing obviously, but I'll bet modern "damascus" knives are inferior to knives using more suitable blade steels.

[Raukodur]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

Sorry to dissect your post Rauk, but I'm even skeptical of this one assumption here. From what I've heard, modern "damascus" is indeed all about appearance, and so makers choose the two types of steel not based on what would be the best properties for a knife, but based on what would yield the most desirable light-dark contrast between the layers.

So I've not done any testing obviously, but I'll bet modern "damascus" knives are inferior to knives using more suitable blade steels.

Right, this may well be true, in which case it is EVEN more of a con! This is what I am talking about. Not quite sure if anyone is getting what I mean 

[J-sews]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

Sorry to dissect your post Rauk, but I'm even skeptical of this one assumption here. From what I've heard, modern "damascus" is indeed all about appearance, and so makers choose the two types of steel not based on what would be the best properties for a knife, but based on what would yield the most desirable light-dark contrast between the layers.

So I've not done any testing obviously, but I'll bet modern "damascus" knives are inferior to knives using more suitable blade steels.

Right, this may well be true, in which case it is EVEN more of a con! This is what I am talking about. Not quite sure if anyone is getting what I mean 

I'm getting what you mean, but I wonder if it really matters? People nowadays don't buy damascus swords and knives for how well they hold up in combat, they buy them for how pretty they look. The suppliers of damascus items have simply tailored their products to meet the customer's expectations.

[Mr. Whippy]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

Sorry to dissect your post Rauk, but I'm even skeptical of this one assumption here. From what I've heard, modern "damascus" is indeed all about appearance, and so makers choose the two types of steel not based on what would be the best properties for a knife, but based on what would yield the most desirable light-dark contrast between the layers.

So I've not done any testing obviously, but I'll bet modern "damascus" knives are inferior to knives using more suitable blade steels.

Interesting thread.  I've been looking around at blade making websites, steel websites, etc and from what I can glean, Modern steels with various trace materials and closely titrated carbon content out-perform ANY of the ancient steels.  The Sword making folks shun all stainless due to brittleness and recommend high carbon steels only.  (O1 seems to be popular)

Most who are interested in sword performance believe that the Japanese and Viking folding techniques were ways of getting around inconsistent or poor quality steels available to them.  Damascus was a superior consistent product but likely not better than the current modern steels.

Most consider Damascus a purely asethetic thing, likely not improving on modern blade steels.

And btw, the desireable attribute of Damascus (flexible and good edge retention) is really not pertinent to knives, since few are of a length where flexibility is a critical factor. 

[J-sews]

Yes, this is my point, pattern welded, damascus lookalike steel you can buy today is probably superior to 'normal' steel used in knives, but it is advertised as damascus, with the implications associated with that (similar to a synthetic diamond being passed off as a real diamond, in effect the two are probably very similar, especially in a knife, but there is still a difference, which is born out by the large price difference between the two), and so an exorbitant price is charged.

I wonder, if it was made clear that a pattern welded knife was damascus steel lookalike and not the same ancient, now lost, process used for actual damascus steel, would 'they' be able to sell such knives for as much as they do? I doubt it. It makes me seriously reconsider how much I would buy one for.

Sorry to dissect your post Rauk, but I'm even skeptical of this one assumption here. From what I've heard, modern "damascus" is indeed all about appearance, and so makers choose the two types of steel not based on what would be the best properties for a knife, but based on what would yield the most desirable light-dark contrast between the layers.

So I've not done any testing obviously, but I'll bet modern "damascus" knives are inferior to knives using more suitable blade steels.

Interesting thread.  I've been looking around at blade making websites, steel websites, etc and from what I can glean, Modern steels with various trace materials and closely titrated carbon content out-perform ANY of the ancient steels.  The Sword making folks shun all stainless due to brittleness and recommend high carbon steels only.  (O1 seems to be popular)

Most who are interested in sword performance believe that the Japanese and Viking folding techniques were ways of getting around inconsistent or poor quality steels available to them.  Damascus was a superior consistent product but likely not better than the current modern steels.

Most consider Damascus a purely asethetic thing, likely not improving on modern blade steels.

And btw, the desireable attribute of Damascus (flexible and good edge retention) is really not pertinent to knives, since few are of a length where flexibility is a critical factor. 

Everything you say there rings true to me Mr W.

[jzmtl]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it was my impression that modern Damascus steel is supposed to have the temper and flexibility of ancient Damascus, through a process analogous to what the Japanese used to make sword steel (folding essentially) and displaying the aesthetics of Damascus steel.

If the modern Damascus does this, then I believe they are fulfilling what is promised...

No one knows, the owners of few damascus swords survived till today don't exactly want their prize tested for flexibility and edge holding.