What does it mean when somebody says their SAK has 2 layers?

[Fisting_Chili]

Thanks!
(re-reading my post, it almost sounds...dirty)

[django.cj]

It's simply the number of layers of tools present. Just at the SAK's side and count. For example a Tinker is two layers and a Huntsman four.  It determines how thick the overall knife is. 

[Chako]

Saks are measured by length (58mm, 91mm, etc...) as well as how many layers the knife has.

2 layers mean that there are literally 2 layers inside the knife. One layer will typically have a large blade and small blade, and the other could have a bottle opener and a can opener in the other. Think of layers as being partitioned by metal dividers inside the knife.

[Fisting_Chili]

Saks are measured by length (58mm, 91mm, etc...) as well as how many layers the knife has.

2 layers mean that there are literally 2 layers inside the knife. One layer will typically have a large blade and small blade, and the other could have a bottle opener and a can opener in the other. Think of layers as being partitioned by metal dividers inside the knife.

So ..say an Explorer...would you say that has 4 layers?

[Gareth]

Correct.

[Fisting_Chili]

Correct.

Got it, thanks all!

[yud]

Saks are measured by length (58mm, 91mm, etc...) as well as how many layers the knife has.

2 layers mean that there are literally 2 layers inside the knife. One layer will typically have a large blade and small blade, and the other could have a bottle opener and a can opener in the other. Think of layers as being partitioned by metal dividers inside the knife.

I go by back spring

[jazzbass]

Think of layers as being partitioned by metal dividers inside the knife.

I go by back spring

These are the two best ways to think of layers, and usually result in the same number. So, how do you guys count layers for the few knives where they put two tools in the same layer? This happens in Champions, SwissChamps, Outdoorsmen, pre-85 Craftsmen and Handymen where they put the fish scaler together with the saw or (more unusually) the metal file. I count the saw and scaler as two layers.

[Gareth]

Now there's a good question.  I've always taken the saw+scaler to be one layer, so a SwissChamp is a 7 layer SAK.  I can see why you'd look at it differently though.

[Fisting_Chili]

Question about the Champion....older models had a chisel...what does that look like?  I have one that looks like this...is that a chisel?

[jazzbass]

Question about the Champion....older models had a chisel...what does that look like?  I have one that looks like this...is that a chisel?

No, that's the fine screwdriver. Champions didn't get the chisel until 1986; the pic you show is a 73-85 Champion. That said, from a pic like that, the chisel DOES look like the old fine screwdriver. For models with the chisel, there will be either 4 or 5 back tools. From l-r in the pic below - corkscrew, new fine screwdriver, chisel, hook (91+ models), and the awl.

[Fisting_Chili]

Question about the Champion....older models had a chisel...what does that look like?  I have one that looks like this...is that a chisel?

No, that's the fine screwdriver. Champions didn't get the chisel until 1986; the pic you show is a 73-85 Champion. That said, from a pic like that, the chisel DOES look like the old fine screwdriver. For models with the chisel, there will be either 4 or 5 back tools. From l-r in the pic below - corkscrew, new fine screwdriver, chisel, hook (91+ models), and the awl.

(Image removed from quote.)

er...not that I don't believe you Jazzbass, but from the two pictures, mine looks identical to the chisel in your picture no?  Here is a link that I was looking at from Smartknives...
http://www.smartknives.com/Victorinox-Knives/Victorinox-Champion-Chisel.htm

Thanks

[Fisting_Chili]

Question about the Champion....older models had a chisel...what does that look like?  I have one that looks like this...is that a chisel?

No, that's the fine screwdriver. Champions didn't get the chisel until 1986; the pic you show is a 73-85 Champion. That said, from a pic like that, the chisel DOES look like the old fine screwdriver. For models with the chisel, there will be either 4 or 5 back tools. From l-r in the pic below - corkscrew, new fine screwdriver, chisel, hook (91+ models), and the awl.

(Image removed from quote.)

er...not that I don't believe you Jazzbass, but from the two pictures, mine looks identical to the chisel in your picture no?  Here is a link that I was looking at from Smartknives...
http://www.smartknives.com/Victorinox-Knives/Victorinox-Champion-Chisel.htm

Thanks

And here is their pic of a Champion with chisel

[Gareth]

Jazzbass is exactly right, the backtool on the older Champion isn't a chisel but a small screwdriver.  Here's a handy page for looking at the different versions of the tools from different ages.  About half way down you'll see the two versions of the driver and the chisel.

http://victorinox.saam007.com/91mmtools.php#finescrew




I have one of these Champions and can tell you categorically that it isn't a chisel, whatever smartknives thinks.

[Fisting_Chili]

Jazzbass is exactly right, the backtool on the older Champion isn't a chisel but a small screwdriver.  Here's a handy page for looking at the different versions of the tools from different ages.  About half way down you'll see the two versions of the driver and the chisel.

http://victorinox.saam007.com/91mmtools.php#finescrew


(Image removed from quote.)

I have one of these Champions and can tell you categorically that it isn't a chisel, whatever smartknives thinks.

Sweet, thanks for that link!  No disrespect intended to JB, I WAS DUPED!  Lol!

[cliosguy]

Now there's a good question.  I've always taken the saw+scaler to be one layer, so a SwissChamp is a 7 layer SAK.  I can see why you'd look at it differently though.

+1

[Spork, Lord of Lime Jello!]

I go by back spring

What about the Cybertool, which uses two springs for the bit driver?

[jazzbass]

er...not that I don't believe you Jazzbass, but from the two pictures, mine looks identical to the chisel in your picture no?  Here is a link that I was looking at from Smartknives...
Thanks

Yes, I know. That's why I said: "from a pic like that, the chisel DOES look like the old fine screwdriver". Trust me on this one, I have several version of both types - it's not a chisel.  

edit: Gareth beat me to it. 

[Fisting_Chili]

er...not that I don't believe you Jazzbass, but from the two pictures, mine looks identical to the chisel in your picture no?  Here is a link that I was looking at from Smartknives...
Thanks

Yes, I know. That's why I said: "from a pic like that, the chisel DOES look like the old fine screwdriver". Trust me on this one, I have several version of both types - it's not a chisel.  

Want another?? 
lol, just kidding.  Thanks for all your help!

[jazzbass]

Want another?? 
lol, just kidding.  Thanks for all your help!

It depends... does it have a tool combination I don't have? Champions are like snowflakes - no two are the same. Send me a pic, I might be interested.

[Fisting_Chili]

Want another?? 
lol, just kidding.  Thanks for all your help!

It depends... does it have a tool combination I don't have? Champions are like snowflakes - no two are the same. Send me a pic, I might be interested.

Damn...I didn't think you'd actually want another.  You crazy collectors!  I actually already popped it on ebay before I saw your reply, sorry!  Hopefully, it is a model you already have 12 of and are not interested in.

[Zack]

Pop them on here.....NO FEES. And a much faster sale.

[Gareth]

Jazzbass is exactly right, the backtool on the older Champion isn't a chisel but a small screwdriver.  Here's a handy page for looking at the different versions of the tools from different ages.  About half way down you'll see the two versions of the driver and the chisel.

http://victorinox.saam007.com/91mmtools.php#finescrew


(Image removed from quote.)

I have one of these Champions and can tell you categorically that it isn't a chisel, whatever smartknives thinks.

Sweet, thanks for that link!  No disrespect intended to JB, I WAS DUPED!  Lol!

NP Chili, I'll be the first to admit that without seeing the old driver in person it's easy to confuse it for a chisel.  I'd also add that while smartknives is an OK site it's got a few inaccuracies, SAKwiki is much better IMO.

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Knife+List

[AHB]

Pop them on here.....NO FEES. And a much faster sale.

+1
And the European members get a shot at them too...  

[jazzbass]

Damn...I didn't think you'd actually want another.  You crazy collectors!  I actually already popped it on ebay before I saw your reply, sorry!  Hopefully, it is a model you already have 12 of and are not interested in.

lol... no worries, I think I'm pretty good on the pre-85 Champions  .

And, for the record, I really only have one of each Champion... my problem (well one, at least) is that I collect 91mm variants - any differences or changes in the tools is a "different knife" to me. And for Champions, they've been made for so long, and have so many different tools, that finding variants is easy. Almost too easy, unfortunately. Combine that with the fact that they're one of the most popular knives, so finding them is easy and... well I just counted... I have 19 different Champions 

"Hello, my name is jazzbass and I have a problem..."

[ICanFixThat]

Now there's a good question.  I've always taken the saw+scaler to be one layer, so a SwissChamp is a 7 layer SAK.  I can see why you'd look at it differently though.

+1

I'm now counting it as two on SAKwiki as I believe it is most accurate, and I believe Victorinox is doing the same.  I use to call it a double layer, but decided based on Vic's labeling that this was not a good idea and some models over the years have added or removed a liner.  A layer is not a uniform thickness so I decided that calling something a double-layer really said little that was important, and make it more confusing when comparing different models.

That's my take anyway.

[Gareth]

Damn...I didn't think you'd actually want another.  You crazy collectors!  I actually already popped it on ebay before I saw your reply, sorry!  Hopefully, it is a model you already have 12 of and are not interested in.

lol... no worries, I think I'm pretty good on the pre-85 Champions  .

And, for the record, I really only have one of each Champion... my problem (well one, at least) is that I collect 91mm variants - any differences or changes in the tools is a "different knife" to me. And for Champions, they've been made for so long, and have so many different tools, that finding variants is easy. Almost too easy, unfortunately. Combine that with the fact that they're one of the most popular knives, so finding them is easy and... well I just counted... I have 19 different Champions  

"Hello, my name is jazzbass and I have a problem..."

19!?

I had no idea that there were so many variations on the Champion.

[Fisting_Chili]

Damn...I didn't think you'd actually want another.  You crazy collectors!  I actually already popped it on ebay before I saw your reply, sorry!  Hopefully, it is a model you already have 12 of and are not interested in.

lol... no worries, I think I'm pretty good on the pre-85 Champions  .

And, for the record, I really only have one of each Champion... my problem (well one, at least) is that I collect 91mm variants - any differences or changes in the tools is a "different knife" to me. And for Champions, they've been made for so long, and have so many different tools, that finding variants is easy. Almost too easy, unfortunately. Combine that with the fact that they're one of the most popular knives, so finding them is easy and... well I just counted... I have 19 different Champions 

"Hello, my name is jazzbass and I have a problem..."

Hahahahaha! 

[jazzbass]

19!?

I had no idea that there were so many variations on the Champion.

Oh, yeah - 19. 10 "new" (mag layer) and 9 "old" (no mag, long file). And I know of at least 10 variants I don't have. Now keep in mind this really goes down to the nit-picky minutia level with some of them.

The Champion was introduced in 1952. Since then, the main blade has changed 7 times (tang stamps, thickness), the pen blade twice, the file 4 times, the scissors 8 times, the awl 4 times, the mag/phillips layer, 5 times, fish scaler 5 times, the cap lifter 4 times, the can opener twice, the saw 4 times, and the key ring 4 times, the corkscrew four times, the back side phillips (for early models) 3 (maybe 4) times, the fine screwdriver twice and they added two new back tools (chisel and hook). Put all of those variations together in different combinations and it's very, very easy to get a unique Champion. That's why I say Champions are like snowflakes - no two are the same.

Champions are great mod-fodder knives, so if I see one selling for cheap on eBay I'll pick it up. If it's different in any way, I clean it up and put it in the collection. If it's a duplicate and not nicer than the one I already have, it gets torn apart for parts.

[M.TEX]

 Victorinox with many layers are fun....just like chubby woman... 
  I think I have said too much