Not tool related but wanted some feedback.

[David Bowen]

Been watching alot of Bear Grylls lately and it makes me wonder. If I was to be using a knife to baton into a tree, what steel would you rather it be? Would you stick to something cheaper like 420 HC or go with something premium like s30v? Does S30v chip when batoned? Just some questions rattling around in my head.

David

[I'm Still Bison]

 If it was a real world survival scenario..I'd go with one of the 440's..good and relatively easy to bring back to a good edge quick.

[665ae]

If it was a real world survival scenario..I'd go with one of the 440's..good and relatively easy to bring back to a good edge quick.

I agree.  I normally carry a Ka-Bar Large Heavy Bowie while camping/hiking.  Big and thick, easy to sharpen, and takes as much abuse as I can dish out. 

[Spoonrobot]

You are watching Mr. Grylls for the entertainment value and not actual tips right?  ;D

Depending on how the S30V was made it will chip on anything from light paper to thin plastic or not at all ever. Overall S30V does not seem more prone to chipping than other powder steels when done right.

I'll try to hunt up the information but I seem to recall S30V being a poor choice for batoning/prying since it has a tendency to snap easier than other steels (this does not make S30V a "fragile steel by any means).

Of the top of my head I would pick something super premium like Busse's INFI steel or A2 tool steel. Seems like mid/high grade steel would be a waste since it would not perform as well as the top end but still be a bear to sharpen when done. I think either super-high end or low end would be the best bet.

*I don't do a lot of batoning so I may be slightly underinformed.

[David Bowen]

Yes for entertainment value, but still wanted to know which to use if I "had to".

David

[tomcrx]

I always preferred high carbon like like 1095 or O2. The ability to reprofile and sharpen in the field are important to me.

My preference for non-stainless, high-carbon is just personal. I have been out for over 4-6 weeks at a time and have lost, forgot or cracked my pocket stones. I have successfully resharpened 1095 on river rocks and kept them sharp by stropping on my boot after use.

Batoning is more technique then steel quality. I have done it with great success with opinels and SAKS. I think you would be fine with any steel from a quality manufacturer.  Be it SV30, 440C or O2.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am not a professional survivalist- I don't even have a PSK, but it seems to me that if I were in a survival type situation, the edge on my large knife wouldn't be as important to me as the one on my SAK.  The large knife would likely be used for hacking down small trees and larger branches to create a shelter, and trimming firewood to fit in a pit.  It might even be used for some digging chores.  As a result, while it would be better to have it sharper than not, I wouldn't be as worried about chips in the edge or overall dullness in it as I would in a pocket knife. 

If I had to baton it, I think just about any steel would work as well as any other.  In the majority of survival situations you probably wouldn't have to think long term anyway.  In the event of a plane crash, getting lost while hiking, boating accident etc, chances are that someone will be looking for you, and you will probably only have to manage for a few days at most.  With that in mind, I doubt I would worry too much about maintaining a perfect edge on a heavy duty chopper.

Def

[665ae]

In the majority of survival situations you probably wouldn't have to think long term anyway.  In the event of a plane crash, getting lost while hiking, boating accident etc, chances are that someone will be looking for you, and you will probably only have to manage for a few days at most.

I remember reading somewhere that most survival situations last less than 72 hours.  If you want to read what I think is a pretty good book about survival, check out "98.6 Degrees : The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive" by Cody Lundin.  He's big on being prepared to survive for 72 hours.

[M.TEX]

 my .02 cents ... I guess in a survival situation any knife would Help.
 you are NOT going to cut BIG TREES. Batoning is done with hard wood
 and not a ROCK so....if you don't have any CHINA stuff I think you can make it
 fine...Mr. Grills has a web site BLOG I will post here.

 sorry for my .02 cents 

 There it is....

 http://www.bayleyknife.com/

[M.TEX]

Quote from his BLOG:


Tuesday, 17 April 2007
bear's knife....
I have had so many enquiries about what knife I consider best for all round performance blade.

Well, I have tried so many different ones during the filming of these 'Man Vs Wild''s & 'Born Survivor's', and if I am honest, none of them were quite right, (although in their defence. I did give them all a bit of a beating!)

So instead I have teamed up with Bayley knives and together have designed what I believe to be the most versatile, tough and practical knife available anywhere today.

Ironically, it has turned out very similar to ones we used in the SAS...but that is a beside...in conclusion, it is the knife I am currently using in any new episodes.

[Raukodur]

and what is this knife...

[Grant Lamontagne]

There's two issues I have with that statement.  One, he is probably drawn to an SAS style knife because that's what he is used to working with, and two, the celebrity designed and endorsed knives are always suspect in my books.  You never know when a savvy marketer is going to pull a dump truck full of money up to your door in exchange for the use of your name.  When you are out in the woods, freezing and possibly slightly injured, Mother Nature won't care that you have a Survivor Series Bowie Knife with Grizzly Adams inlaid in gold on the blade.

It's further proof that the knife you have should be selected as what is comfortable to you, not what someone with a nicer car than you says you should have.

Def

[Anthony]

I'm thinking of picking up a Ontario Pilots knife to take on my next trip, just to see how "inferior" it is to the high end knives. 

I definatley woulden't buy a knife just because it's some famous guys' "signature series" or whatever. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree completely.  Some knives that have a guy's name on them are good, but most are the result of the old dump truck full of money thing.  It's depressing but I don't know if I could turn down a dump truck full of money either.  I'd like to think I would, but there's a lot to be said for... well... a dump truck full of money!

Def

[Anthony]

Many popular outdoor knives come from guys who designed a knife BEFORE they got "famous" with knife users...like the Becker line and the guys behind the RAT knives.  Their good designs got them picked up by the major manufacturers, not their name.

[Grant Lamontagne]

They have to design a good knife at that point- their name will only justify a Hyundai full of money!

Def

[CQC-7]

For a survival knife I would want a blade of carbon steel.  1095 is a pretty good choice.  S30V is a good steel and I have several knives with this material for a blade.  My Spyderco Manix with a S30V Blade is a great knife.  I have used it to baton small logs and I really put it through the ringer more than a few times.  It has taken all that I have given to it and then some.  The blade has no chipped, the lock has not even gotten loose.  Perhaps the resistance to chipping could be due to the grind of the blade. 

As for the knives endorsed by famous people, I will have to say that some of the knives out there are junk but the Tom Brown Tracker is the real deal.  It is BIG, tough and a very well designed survival tool.  It is as close to a fixed blade multitool as a person can buy.   

[ringzero]

If I was to be using a knife to baton into a tree, what steel would you rather it be? Would you stick to something cheaper like 420 HC or go with something premium like s30v? Does S30v chip when batoned? Just some questions rattling around in my head...David

There's a website out there somewhere (can't find the bookmark or recall its name at the moment) that tests well-known brands and models of knives.

The guy specializes in outdoor-survival testing of knives, and he tests to destruction.  He chops branches and animal bones, he batons, he splits, he pries, he digs holes and builds fires and shelters, he cuts meat and vegetables, etc.

The knives he tests, even expensive knives by well-known manufacturers, will almost all fail one or more of his tests.  He commonly breaks off the blade tips.  He sometimes breaks blades by batoning, especially when cutting through animal bones.  He documents with photos the condition of the knife after each test.  Really a cool site.  I'll try to find it again and post a link here.

IIRC, blades made of D2 tool steel seemed to fare better than most during chopping and batoning.  D2 steel seems to stand up better to that kind of brutal treatment.  However, there were other types of steel that also held up well during batoning.

Some of the expensive, brandname "survival" knives didn't do that well in his tests.  Some of the better performers were moderately priced knives by less celebrated manufacturers.


.
   

[damota]

Under these circumstances I would go for a 440 type steel 57-58 hardness. More important I would be looking at the material the rest of the knife was made of. No plastic or open frame handle, plastic breaks and chips metal carries heat and cold. That would take me to animal (bone/horn) or wood handles. I would also rather than have a knife that had been artificially tested to destruction, have a one used every day by people that need to.
That would lead me to Norwegian - Swedish - Lapland knives of the Puuko design  Brussletto, Iisakki Jävenpää oy and Lappi for instance. I would also have a couple of sizes (they are cheap enough).
I can not see the day when I would need to cut a raw bone here in the UK I would wait till it was cooked then crack it.

Dave

[ringzero]

I would also rather than have a knife that had been artificially tested to destruction, have a one used every day by people that need to.
That would lead me to Norwegian - Swedish - Lapland knives of the Puuko design  Brussletto, Iisakki Jävenpää oy and Lappi for instance. I would also have a couple of sizes (they are cheap enough).

Personally, I've never seen the point in carrying a big 'survival' knife that weighs nearly as much as a small ax.

A big, heavy knife will never chop wood for shelter building as well as the smallest, lightest hand axes.

A knife will never work as well as an ax for splitting to get at dry wood for starting a fire.

An ax even works better for disjointing an animal carcass.

Even a light folding saw probably has better survival utility than a big knife.

If you expect to do those kinds of things - or just want to be prepared to do them if necessary - it's better to carry a light hand ax and a smaller, more handy knife.

.
 

[I'm Still Bison]

Under these circumstances I would go for a 440 type steel 57-58 hardness. More important I would be looking at the material the rest of the knife was made of. No plastic or open frame handle, plastic breaks and chips metal carries heat and cold. That would take me to animal (bone/horn) or wood handles. I would also rather than have a knife that had been artificially tested to destruction, have a one used every day by people that need to.
That would lead me to Norwegian - Swedish - Lapland knives of the Puuko design  Brussletto, Iisakki Jävenpää oy and Lappi for instance. I would also have a couple of sizes (they are cheap enough).
I can not see the day when I would need to cut a raw bone here in the UK I would wait till it was cooked then crack it.

Dave

                  Your sentiments are echoed by some SOSAKers,they've written in posts that they can spend a weekend outdooors with not much more than a SAK and a Scandi,and perhaps a multi and not feel they were inadequately equipped.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yeah, most SOSAKers will agree that it's the perfect combination.

 ;D

I am embarassed to say that I don't have a Scandi myself...

Def

[665ae]

A big, heavy knife will never chop wood for shelter building as well as the smallest, lightest hand axes.

What kind of wood are you using for building a shelter?  The last time we went camping, we had two hand axes (one was a Fiskars one was a Buck) and my KaBar Large Heavy Bowie.  When cutting trees with 3-4" diameters, the KaBar would cut thru in one swing.  The small light axes would not.

A knife will never work as well as an ax for splitting to get at dry wood for starting a fire.

Are you still talking about a small light hand axe?  Both still need to be batoned to split large pieces of wood.  I've found that the knife actually sinks deeper on the first swing than any of the light axes we've tried.

An ax even works better for disjointing an animal carcass.

Don't know about this one.  I don't usually disjoint squirrels

Even a light folding saw probably has better survival utility than a big knife.

A light folding saw has one purpose.  You can't dig, poke, slice, chop, or defend yourself with a folding saw.

[Grant Lamontagne]

A knife batons and cuts deeper simply because it's thinner than an axe.  Long term though, an axe will manage these tasks better.

And I'd be pretty concerned about getting gouged with a folding saw!  The teeth look like they'd hurt like hell!

Def

[665ae]

A knife batons and cuts deeper simply because it's thinner than an axe.  Long term though, an axe will manage these tasks better.

I don't necessarily agree.  The KaBar is thick, strong, and one piece.  With a lightweight hatchet, you run the risk of breaking the handle, which is usually some kind of plastic.  It we're talking long term, I think you'd have a greater chance of missing your mark on a few swings and smacking the handle pretty hard.  Even with batoning a knife, if you break some of it off it's still useable.

The way I look at it is like this... if I need to survive until rescue arrives, I want to conserve as much energy as possible.  I'm going to be gathering small deadfall for a fire (if I need one) and I will want to cut thru it fast and exert as little energy as possible.  In my experience and opinion (we camp quite a bit and goof off testing stuff like this) I've found that a large knife is less energy consuming and more capable for the small stuff than using a hatchet or a saw. 

[ringzero]

What kind of wood are you using for building a shelter?  The last time we went camping, we had two hand axes (one was a Fiskars one was a Buck) and my KaBar Large Heavy Bowie.  When cutting trees with 3-4" diameters, the KaBar would cut
thru in one swing.  The small light axes would not.

Sorry, but that just doesn't track with my experience in cutting small trees.

There's no way I'd be able to cut through a 3 inch diameter tree - much less a 4 inch diameter tree - with one swing of any knife or ax.

Are you still talking about a small light hand axe?  Both still need to be batoned to split large pieces of wood.  I've found that the knife actually sinks deeper on the first swing than any of the light axes we've tried.

I can split wood up to several inches diameter using my light Fiskars hand ax without batoning.  Splits branches fairly easily to get at the drier wood in the center.

Splitting bigger stuff will require batoning and probably use of wedges, and will require some work using any small tool.

I'd rather try splitting a one-foot diameter log with my Fiskars hand ax than with the biggest survival knife.

A light folding saw has one purpose.  You can't dig, poke, slice, chop, or defend yourself with a folding saw.

That's all true.  But, a good folding saw will excel at that one purpose.

A small, light hand ax probably makes a better weapon than a knife.  I'd rate a hand ax as better than a knife, but less effective than a spear for self defense.


.

[damota]

A small, light hand ax probably makes a better weapon than a knife.  I'd rate a hand ax as better than a knife, but less effective than a spear for self defense.

I did not realize we were talking of the end of civilization, I though we were just talking of natural disaster scenario.
I reckon a fire arm is the way to go if that became a reality, how to get one well that would have to be worked out before it was needed.

FWIW close quarter fighting needs speed and you must be trained to use a knife, heavy weapons slow you down.

Dave
If you feel that desperate learn how to use one of these.

[ringzero]

I did not realize we were talking of the end of civilization, I though we were just talking of natural disaster scenario.
I reckon a fire arm is the way to go if that became a reality, how to get one well that would have to be worked out before it was needed.

I wasn't talking about the end of civilization, merely responding to a post regarding the improvised use of tools for self defense.

I almost always take along a pistol when out hiking and camping.  Sometimes a rifle and shotgun.  I'm not a hunter, I just enjoy firearms.  Also, I like not being defenseless if the need should ever arise.

If you wait until you see trouble approaching to try and aquire a firearm, it may well be too late.

FWIW close quarter fighting needs speed and you must be trained to use a knife, heavy weapons slow you down.

Looking back at weapons people used before firearms came on the scene, some variation of a light hand ax was favored in many times and places, especially in frontier and wilderness settings.

If you are attacked and must defend yourself, almost any tool is better than an empty hand.


.

[David Bowen]

It's amazing how a simple thread topic gets a life of it's own.

David


BTW thanks for all the info 

[665ae]

Sorry, but that just doesn't track with my experience in cutting small trees.

There's no way I'd be able to cut through a 3 inch diameter tree - much less a 4 inch diameter tree - with one swing of any knife or ax.

I'll try to get out and measure some of the stuff I've personally cut.  I may be overestimating the measurment, but I don't think I am. 

I can split wood up to several inches diameter using my light Fiskars hand ax without batoning.  Splits branches fairly easily to get at the drier wood in the center.

Splitting bigger stuff will require batoning and probably use of wedges, and will require some work using any small tool.

I'd rather try splitting a one-foot diameter log with my Fiskars hand ax than with the biggest survival knife.

In my opinion and based on my "experience" (I use that term loosely), there's no good reason to waste the energy needed to split larger pieces of wood in a "survival" situation. 

That's all true.  But, a good folding saw will excel at that one purpose.

I never said it didn't.

A small, light hand ax probably makes a better weapon than a knife.  I'd rate a hand ax as better than a knife, but less effective than a spear for self defense.

I don't agree with that.  I'm not going to explain why, because I don't want to start a self defense debate.  I'll happily accept the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine