Reality check: What's the REAL difference between lights?

[Mr. Whippy]

I have a couple Maratac lights, AAAX1 and AAX1 and a few Fenix single battery lights.  Personally I prefer the Maratac AAAX1 to the Fenix LD01 BECAUSE the low is lower and the knurls are easier to turn one handed.  Plus it's about half the price.

Then I look at some of the Surefire, Ra and some of the other high end lights and I wonder, what makes them worth SO much more than the Maratac and Fenix lights? 

The specs are pretty similar.  Is it UI?  Construction wise,  I have no real complaints about my lowly Maratac (or my Fenix).

Is it mostly esthetics?

 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

This'll be an interesting thread as I've been wondering the same myself

I don't doubt a Surefires a better quality light that say a Fenix, but 4x better

[Swiss Man]

I have a Mini Tac Torch from Coast

http://www.coastportland.com/product.php?prodid=271&prodnums=%C2%BF183%C2%A1186%C2%A11030%C2%A118%C2%A11036%C2%A1943%C2%A1199%C2%A1204%C2%A11029%C2%A1214%C2%A1216%C2%A1194%C2%A11110%C2%A1191%C2%A1190%C2%A1271%C2%A1272%C2%A1274%C2%A1275%C2%A113%C2%BF&mastCat=1&catid=6

That I bought at Dick's Sporting Goods a couple weeks back for like $12.00. 

At first I was weary because I knew I wasn't a Coast fan as far as MT's
but it is a nice little light and slides right into the pouch of my ST300.

It is not super bright but it will find your keys in a movie theater

My version is the AAA not the watch cells this link shows. Plus mine is only 7.5 lumens not 15.  But it is still nice.

[zepla]

There will always be someone with bad experience with a Fenix that he never had with Surefire, and there for say Surefire is the better. And the otherway around.

But to be honest, I never had any problems with Fenix so I can't see any reason to spend more money on a Surefire.

I know people with, for example, a Ford driving thousends and thousends  miles with no troubles at all and I know people with a Mercedes spending more time in the garage than on the road. Perhaps you are statistically more likely to be trouble free with a mercedes, but to pay twice or more money for the chanche you might have getting troubles with a vauxhall or ford or whatever? I don't know. Estetically, trade-in value, technical innovations, etc. it's an whole different story of course. I'm just looking, in this case, will it work for me or will it break down every second I want to use it.

So in short; if you are happy with what you've got, why spend more?  

[NutSAK]

Materials, technology, design & engineering time, labor cost...  they all play a part of the price difference.

There is a HUGE difference in all of these categories when you compare a Maratac AAA vs. a Ra.

[zepla]

Materials, technology, design & engineering time, labor cost...  they all play a part of the price difference.

There is a HUGE difference in all of these categories when you compare a Maratac AAA vs. a Ra.

This is interesting, I really wonder what of those items you mentioned makes Surefire for example more expensive than Fenix. Besides the time and labor costs, I can see that as one is an asian company and the other a western company (if I'm correct).

[Styerman]

Build quality , durability , warranty , design , engineering , etc etc . Kinda like digital multimeters , the cheapos are quite accurate . Try them after being dropped a few times , or if you hit a good overload . Look at the quality of their test leads( a vital part as far as saftey is concerned ) .The cheapies are OK in the glove compartment , not so swift if you have to play with 480 Volts . Same logic applies to Lites .

To use a gun analogy , both a Norinco 1911 knockoff and a Les Bauer will go off with a bang , which one would you rather shoot competative IPSC , or carry as a duty weapon ? The Norinko will do an OK job sitting on a nightstand ,would you be as happy with it in Asscrackastan ?

Their is a whole range of quality , ranging from superb to dangerous , only you know what you need . I do a fair bit of work in confined spaces and nasty enviroments , I know from experience how unpleasant it can be to have stuff poop the bed . I'll pay the extra , and only cry once .

As always , you milage will be all over the map .

Chris

[NutSAK]

Materials, technology, design & engineering time, labor cost...  they all play a part of the price difference.

There is a HUGE difference in all of these categories when you compare a Maratac AAA vs. a Ra.

This is interesting, I really wonder what of those items you mentioned makes Surefire for example more expensive than Fenix. Besides the time and labor costs, I can see that as one is an asian company and the other a western company (if I'm correct).

Yes, that is correct.  The fact that one is Asian and one is western ensures that there would be a difference in time and labor costs.  I would say that material costs also plays a large part of the difference in price re:Surefire vs. Fenix.

[Styerman]

I do have one Fenix product , A leatherman Serac S2 , Works great , very happy with it . Makes a great keychain lite , as does a photon which I own a plethora of . For my outdoor emergency kit , I keep an Arc P , I just flat assed trust it more ! In a Work context , I would be quite happy to carry a Serac S3 as a backup lite/battery carrier , but no way as a primary . I have a plain clothes LEO buddy who is of the same opinion, his primary lite is a McGizmo McLux PD , his backup is a Serac S3 .

Chris

[Mr. Whippy]

Materials, technology, design & engineering time, labor cost...  they all play a part of the price difference.

There is a HUGE difference in all of these categories when you compare a Maratac AAA vs. a Ra.

Titanium vs Aluminum:  and degree of anodizing, I can see that difference.

But assuming Aluminum tubes (no plastic), using the same emitter, I just don't see where the extra money goes.  The clicky switch?  If I go with twisty, then it shouldn't be an issue...

Not trying to be flippant, but I see, for example Olight 1xCR123 lights with equivalent specs to a Ra 1xCr123 for 1/2 the price and wonder why.

[NutSAK]

Titanium vs Aluminum:  and degree of anodizing, I can see that difference.

But assuming Aluminum tubes (no plastic), using the same emitter, I just don't see where the extra money goes.

quality of materials (including aluminum)
quality of finish
mechanical complexity
electronic complexity

Specs are not everything.  You can't put a spec on the durability or complexity of a design.

[Mr. Whippy]

Titanium vs Aluminum:  and degree of anodizing, I can see that difference.

But assuming Aluminum tubes (no plastic), using the same emitter, I just don't see where the extra money goes.

quality of materials (including aluminum)
quality of finish
mechanical complexity
electronic complexity

Specs are not everything.  You can't put a spec on the durability or complexity of a design.

Again, trying to justify spending more  to myself,

My Fenix LD01 has been bombproof, even when 3.5 feet down in a muddy, cold trench, trying to find the point of leakage from a waterline.

To me, 3 modes is all I need.  I do like the memory feature.  More complexity= More chances of failure so simpler is better in my book.

I can definitely see the value of quality of finish (threads smooth, good water resistance, easy assembly/disassembly design), as a functional issue.

I guess what I'm after is, do the less expensive lights (Fenix, Maratac, others?) actually have higher documented failure rates compared to their expensive counterparts and if so, what are the weak links?

[zepla]

Titanium vs Aluminum:  and degree of anodizing, I can see that difference.

But assuming Aluminum tubes (no plastic), using the same emitter, I just don't see where the extra money goes.

quality of materials (including aluminum)
quality of finish
mechanical complexity
electronic complexity

Specs are not everything.  You can't put a spec on the durability or complexity of a design.

Again, trying to justify spending more  to myself,

My Fenix LD01 has been bombproof, even when 3.5 feet down in a muddy, cold trench, trying to find the point of leakage from a waterline.

To me, 3 modes is all I need.  I do like the memory feature.  More complexity= More chances of failure so simpler is better in my book.

I can definitely see the value of quality of finish (threads smooth, good water resistance, easy assembly/disassembly design), as a functional issue.

I guess what I'm after is, do the less expensive lights (Fenix, Maratac, others?) actually have higher documented failure rates compared to their expensive counterparts and if so, what are the weak links?

+ 1  That was a far better post than mine  I'm curious about those failures rates as well.

[Zed]

I have a few torches none expensive all from HK, these 2 have impressed me as the bigger MXDL 5w 3AAA £8 is bright enough for me for what i need it for , and the little MXDL 3w 1AAA £3 is spot on for a backup second torch, sorry no info on these as i have no clue on torches but they are bright 

Paul

[NutSAK]

Hmm, I see what you mean. But I wonder if the difference is big enough to justify the huge price difference between those two.

As far as the Ra and the Maratac go, IMO, yes.  The Ra is arguably one of the most durable flashlights ever made (read "How Tough is the Ra Twisty" here).  Do you think a Maratac can take a beating like that?  I quite seriously doubt it.  So, does a more complex design mean that the product is less durable?  IMO, it doesn't necessarily.

A Ra is a very sophisticated, microprocessor-controlled light that can literally be programmed thousands of different ways to suit your needs.  The Maratac uses a very simple three-level PWM circuit.

Am I going to tell you that you need a Ra when a Maratac suits your needs?  Absolutely not. 

I refuse to get into a debate about Fenix vs. SureFire.  If a Fenix meets your needs, buy one.  I will tell you that I've owned more Fenixes than Surefires, but that doesn't mean I think Fenixes are better by any means.

[NutSAK]

I guess what I'm after is, do the less expensive lights (Fenix, Maratac, others?) actually have higher documented failure rates compared to their expensive counterparts and if so, what are the weak links?

That, sir, is a damn good question.  If you can find that information, please LMK because I'd love to see it.

In my experience the weak links of those types of lights are usually the quality of the aluminum and anodize, and the switch if it's a clicky.  They also usually aren't designed to protect the cell (battery) against drops as well as more expensive designs.

[Freudian Frog]

I just wanna know who actually finds themselves in the predicament of repeatedly dropping their flashlights from 20 feet high then being forced to throw it at concrete walls?

Okay, so it's good against shock... you know, in case I decide to... throw my flashlight at people... or something.

[zepla]

Hmm, I see what you mean. But I wonder if the difference is big enough to justify the huge price difference between those two.

As far as the Ra and the Maratac go, IMO, yes.  The Ra is arguably one of the most durable flashlights ever made (read "How Tough is the Ra Twisty" here).  Do you think a Maratac can take a beating like that?  I quite seriously doubt it.  So, does a more complex design mean that the product is less durable?  IMO, it doesn't necessarily.

A Ra is a very sophisticated, microprocessor-controlled light that can literally be programmed thousands of different ways to suit your needs.  The Maratac uses a very simple three-level PWM circuit.

Am I going to tell you that you need a Ra when a Maratac suits your needs?  Absolutely not. 

I refuse to get into a debate about Fenix vs. SureFire.  If a Fenix meets your needs, buy one.  I will tell you that I've owned more Fenixes than Surefires, but that doesn't mean I think Fenixes are better by any means.

No worries, not looking for a debate here  Just looking for a reason to buy a Surefire (the fact that they are cool, which they are I know, is not enough for my wallet  ). I have two Fenix lights and they serve me well but never had a Surefire to compare. And as mentioned before not a flashlight expert by far. Just wondering for what reason I should spend that much more on a Surefire. I can see the difference between something bad and good, but between very good and very very good is a bit difficult for me. That's all 

I'm sure I will end up with one sooner or later and I'll probebly know the answer then why I spend that much on a flashlight  That's what happened with my Leatherman mt's   

[Mr. Whippy]

I just wanna know who actually finds themselves in the predicament of repeatedly dropping their flashlights from 20 feet high then being forced to throw it at concrete walls?

Okay, so it's good against shock... you know, in case I decide to... throw my flashlight at people... or something.

That's called "Tactical".  

Or is it tactile?  

[Styerman]

I just wanna know who actually finds themselves in the predicament of repeatedly dropping their flashlights from 20 feet high then being forced to throw it at concrete walls?

Okay, so it's good against shock... you know, in case I decide to... throw my flashlight at people... or something.

I work on scissor lifts quite a bit , I have also had to use a lite as an impact weapon( as have many others , just ask the Boss ) . I have , in the course of shooting in certain practical events subjected lites to a fair bit of recoil . I can't count how many times I've dropped stuff of 6-8' A frame ladders .

I have had lites fail in confined totally dark spaces , in one case up a 50M crawl space under a school , I take that type of stuff very seriously . If all you ever do is look for lost keys , or look into the bottom of your pack , the cheapies will do . Kinda like with meters , if all you ever look at is 12VDC , a POS Radio Shack meter with 20 ga. leads will be fine , if you work on higher energy stuff , forget it .

Chris

[Freudian Frog]

*cough* wrist strap *cough*



And the recoil from shooting and use as an impact weapon is peanuts to a 20 foot drop. =3
Besides, shock testing over a period of time is a different test.
I'm not saying it's not important... just that I don't think people drop their lights five times in a row 20 feet down. And then procede to throw it at a wall several times.

[Mr. Whippy]

*cough* wrist strap *cough*



And the recoil from shooting and use as an impact weapon is peanuts to a 20 foot drop. =3
Besides, shock testing over a period of time is a different test.
I'm not saying it's not important... just that I don't think people drop their lights five times in a row 20 feet down. And then procede to throw it at a wall several times.

You shoulda seen me trying to fix the tractor's water pump in the second blizzard...

[Freudian Frog]

You shoulda seen me trying to fix the tractor's water pump in the second blizzard...

So I could do this: ?

[Styerman]

Lanyards are great , within certain well defined limits , I use them when safe to do so , other times it's better to not use them, often times one forgets to loop them . Almost all products come in a range of different qualities , some can get away with the cheap stuff , some need the more heavy duty option . A home owner is OK with Sears Craftsman , you won't find too many professional mechanics using them . Ditto for flashlights . Some don't need , but prefer the best . Kinda like Spyderco Delica Vs. Sebenza . Why can't peeps. get their head around this concepts in re: lites ?

Chris

[Freudian Frog]

Lanyards are great , within certain well defined limits , I use them when safe to do so , other times it's better to not use them, often times one forgets to loop them . Almost all products come in a range of different qualities , some can get away with the cheap stuff , some need the more heavy duty option . A home owner is OK with Sears Craftsman , you won't find too many professional mechanics using them . Ditto for flashlights . Some don't need , but prefer the best . Kinda like Spyderco Delica Vs. Sebenza . Why can't peeps. get their head around this concepts in re: lites ?

Chris

I can't get my head around that concept in re: knives either.

BECAUSE IT'S DEAD WRONG.

[Mike]

Along with what others have said about materials, technology, design & engineering time, labor cost .... don't forget quality control over every aspect. This would include how many samples are pulled out of the finished product bin and actually tested along with testing individual parts along the way.

Mike

[NutSAK]

I can see the difference between something bad and good, but between very good and very very good is a bit difficult for me. That's all 

I'd say that pretty much describes the situation, IMO.

[Mr. Whippy]

I can see the difference between something bad and good, but between very good and very very good is a bit difficult for me. That's all 

I'd say that pretty much describes the situation, IMO.

That says a lot and is actually hugely helpful to a newbie like me.

[NutSAK]

I can see the difference between something bad and good, but between very good and very very good is a bit difficult for me. That's all 

I'd say that pretty much describes the situation, IMO.

That says a lot and is actually hugely helpful to a newbie like me.

I will go a bit further and say that, IMO, JetBeam has the best build and finish quality of any light I've seen produced overseas.  JetBeam's quality is somewhere between Surefire and brands like Fenix, Olight, 4Sevens, etc.

just my $.02

[Styerman]

It's also a bit like the difference between a good Varsity athlete and an Olympian - in performance and stamina terms probably well under 10% , but that last increment is quite pricey . Worth it , only you can say .

Chris