More car problems. Anyone know about clutch master cylinders?

[Benner]

My clutch has just gone AGAIN on my Vitara, just 5 months after spending over bloody £1k on getting that and my exhaust done.  The pedal felt very spongy and wouldn't spring up as it should, causing gear changes to be a right PITA.  As you can imagine I am not very happy. 

What I am thinking is that it is the master cylinder (it is a hydraulic clutch).  I have checked and no fluid is being lost, but the actual piston which connects to the pedal itself wobbles all over the place and I can rotate the piston around in a circle in the cylinder like I am stirring porridge.  Stupid question, but I am guessing it is not meant to do this and should only go in and out with no side to side at all?

Because I had to force the sodding thing in so much to change gear to get me home, I have broken the pedal bolt clean off as well now, so I literally have a pedal lose in my car.  Still, I guess I could put it on my keys as the ultimate anti-theft device. 

So, think it sound like the master cylinder?  Is this a big expensive jobbie does anyone know?

Any help would be great.

[thebullfrog]

Don't know how it's set up on that car, but it's likely a bad slave cylinder not the master. Think a mini master cylinder up behind the dash. That is an odd failure, I've never seen that rod actually move around like that lol.

It could be when the clutch was done last it wasn't properly bled and there's an air pocket in the slave cylinder, so you're just compressing the air bubble, not the hydraulic fluid, which may be preventing you from being able to put down enough pressure to release the clutch. If it's been happening for a while and you just didn't notice it, that extra pressure may have broken something. I'd take it back to the same shop and see if you can't get them to take care of it since it was their mistake (assuming of course, that this is even what happened)

[Benner]

Ok, you need to talk to me like an idiot here.    I seem to have the following chain;

Pedal - master cylinder - piping - piston - clutch.  Where would one find a slave cylinder and what is the difference between a slave and a master?  The one I am talking about replacing is the one that has the fluid level on it.

[thebullfrog]

Depending on how your car is set up (cant seem to find anything in google) your pedal may or may not actually be directly connected to the master cylinder. Some cars have have a slave cylinder first. Some use a small slave cylinder right at the clutch itself. it's basically a small mini version of the master cylinder. I know in my old Eagle talon (mitsubishi Eclipse, shared a lot of stuff with the Lancer/ Evolution of the time that you guys got in England) there was a slave cylinder up behind the dash that the piston went into first. Either way, even if yours does go straight into the master that seems like an odd failure. The pedal pressure could have been it not being bled correctly, or something elsewhere getting stuck. Throwout bearing maybe. But it seems to me that that excess pressure is what broke that piston. I could be totally wrong, it's just a guess, but I cant see why that piston malfunction for some reason causing enough pressure that you were able to break the pedal, having it the other way around makes more sense to me.

[thebullfrog]

In looking at other Suzukis I can find info on, it does sound like you probably do have a direct connection into the Master Cylinder. I read that on the XL7 (not sure how much it shares with the Vitara) the throwout bearing can run low on grease and accumulate a lot of dirt/grime/grit and make it hard to get the clutch to disengage, so this may or may not be the case with yours, and that extra effort is leading to damage elsewhere.

[thebullfrog]

I've also found a reference to the slave cylinder right at the transmission (after the master cylinder, attatched directly to the trans/clutch) spring can get all screwed up requireing replacement of the slave cylinder. What year/engine is your Vitara?

[Benner]

It is a 96 2 litre V6.

Just to be clear, the pedal itself broke because I was having to hook and drag it up from underneath and continually push it down hard.  This wasn't because the action was hard and required force, it was just to get that bit more travel to help change gear.  What broke the bolt was my foot basically, not the fault on the car. 

I have looked again and where the piston goes through the rubber gromit on the master cylinder, it seems it has oozed a bit resulting in a few drips of fluid loss.  Is this a bit more conclusive?

[thebullfrog]

Okay that narrowed it down a bit. I did some looking and it sounds like it's a fairly common issue. It's a design flaw in that the piston assembly is really cheap and flimsy. Theres a piece on the back of the pedal assembly where it attatches to that piston. It can get get bent/mangled/screwed up easily and throws everything out of alignment. This prevents the piston from being able to travel far enough to disengage the clutch. Sounds like that may be what happened and all the forcing of it may have made it worse. That piece will likely need to be replaced (haven't discovered the exact name of that part yet). If that piston is all out of whack now that may very well be why it's oozing a bit and the piston has gotten all loose.

[Grant Lamontagne]

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/292

This book can walk you through the removal and rebuilding of almost any component in your car.  I highly recommend them, even if you don't have the tools to do the job, it does give you a much better understanding of what needs to be done, and has very good pictures included.  Well worth the money.  If you need help getting one, I can check my local Canadian Tire.

Def

[Benner]

Thanks a lot for your help.  I am pretty much set on it being the master cylinder now and after a good look it seems I may be able to do it myself.  I am sure there will be plenty of swearing involved however. 

[thebullfrog]

haynes is good stuff.

I also read some complaints that the whole clutch pedal assembly comes loose and out of line causing similar problems. I'd get under that pedal and make sure that all the bolts are properly tight and everything is lined up. Look for anything bent or broken plastic pieces. Press the pedal by hand and look to see if that piston is being tweaked to the side. From the sounds of it that whole assembly is really cheaply made and it all likes to come apart. If you bring it to a shop, make sure and have the mechanic check all that out for you before he goes replacing the Master and/or slave cylinders etc.

[MultiMat]

Thanks a lot for your help.  I am pretty much set on it being the master cylinder now and after a good look it seems I may be able to do it myself.  I am sure there will be plenty of swearing involved however. 

Ben swearing is mandatory , it helps 'seal' the repair & it will last a lot longer  . On occasion throwing things  may be appropriate(so I have heard  ).

Just as well you are skinny fella arsing around in that part of car gets mighty cramped , good luck mate 

[BlueDot]

Be sure to bleed (the brakes) when finished to get all the air out.
Also, brake fluid can sometimes tear up car paint.  Trust me on this one!