2010 Damascus Pioneer

[ICanFixThat]

I've not heard yet when this Limited Edition 2010 Damascus steel Pioneer will hit the US, apparantly all the knives for the Switzerland market have been snapped up by Victorinox dealers and their customers. I think there are still expected to be released to US dealers sometime soon.  It's a bit pricey at 200 Swiss Francs, but the price reflected it's collectability as a limited series and the first SAK to have a Damascus steel blade that they rate at a hardness of 60HRc.  This knife should have great edge holding, and I'm guessing probably best sharpened with diamond. Given the price of used Alox and not wanting to miss out on this one I ordered one from Switzerland and am really appreciating Fed-Ex today.

[Gareth]

 

[NutSAK]

 

[Pacu]

that is one sweet knife

200.00 CHF = 179.021 USD
Switzerland Francs    United States Dollars 
1 CHF = 0.895105 USD   1 USD = 1.11719 CHF

not bad pricing either- bound to be way higher as a collectible

[J-sews]

Oh...My.....Gaawwwwd! That's a real beaut Francis! Congrats, and kudos on an excellent photograph of it too!

[M.TEX]

very nice indeed...

[Mate]

thats ..just stunning       

[ryan1835]

i want one.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Still need's to be a Farmer

And they can chuck a file in it while there at it!

[Styerman]

I want one , just wish they had done HAIII on it . I agree with Mike , a Farmer would be much sweeter , tho I do truly love my Soldiers and Pioneers .

Chris

[ryan1835]

Still need's to be a Farmer

And they can chuck a file in it while there at it!

hmm....

[prime77]

That looks really nice. Nice pattern.

[Sidhartha]

OMG i hope it comes to mexico!!

[DaveK]

I like that - very pretty

[Neil]

Great pictures

I agree that its a shame they didn't hard anodise the scales 

Is this the knife Swiss Bianco arranged the blades for or am I getting confused?  (just for a change   ).

[Benner]

 

[ICanFixThat]

...
Is this the knife Swiss Bianco arranged the blades for or am I getting confused?  (just for a change   ).

Yes, this is the knife that SwissBianco has inspired and helped develop.  He has been prividing most of the information on this knife, I don't see Victorinox releasing much information, at least in the US.  It appears dealers are being given the information, but there does not appear to be alot of retail/consumer marketing of this special knife; atleast not yet.

[ICanFixThat]

The English portion of the Certificate that is supplied with the knife.

 

[Neil]

I'm not losing it then.... Not entirely at least

Thanks for the scan

[Chako]

 

[ufox9al]

If you are interested in the history of development of Victorinox Damascus-bladed SAK, it's posted here.

[Zed]

   gorgeous 

[sawman]

THAT is one of the most awesome sights I've ever encountered. I absolutely love damascus and that's a great use of it 

[Neil]

If you are interested in the history of development of Victorinox Damascus-bladed SAK, it's posted here.

Thanks for the link   I'd read snippets of information of the last couple of years but not the whole tale.

[Raukodur]

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel. The multiple folding and forge welding led to a homogenization of the material, and required a great deal of skill and dedication. Then as now, the crowning highlight in the production of a Damascus blade was the finish. Because only the grinding, polishing and etching reveals the characteristic pattern, and thereby provides a glimpse into the soul of the steel. (The blade of this knife is manufactured from stainless high quality Damascus steel, 60 HRc)

This is just a blatant lie, like I have tried to point out in a previous thread. The CURRENT damascus (which is pattern welded steel) is NOT the same as the damascus steel which is 1000s of years old (it just looks the same). THAT antique damascus was special not only because of the process of folding, but also specifically the special WOOTZ (sp) ore that came from the indian subcontinent region which had the specific combination of impurities to give the damascus weapons their incredible hardness and flexibility which made such excellent swords (which for a long time now is unavailable, hence why damascus weapons stopped being made).

Fine, you can say this new damascus gives a better edge than the other metal used for SAK knives, BUT why the need to try and mislead buyers by trying to link it to real damascus steel, which it in now way is.

Dunno why this irks me so much.

[Gareth]

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel. The multiple folding and forge welding led to a homogenization of the material, and required a great deal of skill and dedication. Then as now, the crowning highlight in the production of a Damascus blade was the finish. Because only the grinding, polishing and etching reveals the characteristic pattern, and thereby provides a glimpse into the soul of the steel. (The blade of this knife is manufactured from stainless high quality Damascus steel, 60 HRc)

This is just a blatant lie, like I have tried to point out in a previous thread. The CURRENT damascus (which is pattern welded steel) is NOT the same as the damascus steel which is 1000s of years old (it just looks the same). THAT antique damascus was special not only because of the process of folding, but also specifically the special WOOTZ (sp) ore that came from the indian subcontinent region which had the specific combination of impurities to give the damascus weapons their incredible hardness and flexibility which made such excellent swords (which for a long time now is unavailable, hence why damascus weapons stopped being made).

Fine, you can say this new damascus gives a better edge than the other metal used for SAK knives, BUT why the need to try and mislead buyers by trying to link it to real damascus steel, which it in now way is.

Dunno why this irks me so much.

You're quite right in that "Damascus" has come to mean any pattern welded steel, whereas it really was originally only meant for the steel you describe above.  At the time lots of cultures produced pattern welded steel, but it was the special steel form Damascus that had the great reputation.  I might be slightly more generous and call it "misinformed and wrong" rather than a blatant lie though.

[ufox9al]

I don't know if the term "damascus" (or a sentence referring to the historic origins of it) in the description of a modern blade is worth agonizing about. We don't obsess over the fact that none but one SAK (at a give time) are really "Swiss Army" knives. Those interested in the history of Damascus steel will read up on it and discover the whole mystery surrounding its production and later attempts to re-create it.  Of course, using tems like "damascus-look", "damascene" (actually printed on Vic. description sheet, or just lower-case "damascus" would be a proper way to describe the modern versions of the blade steel, but it's hardly a crime to link it to its origins.

For the sake of accuracy, Wootz steel does not seem to have been made of a special ore, but is rather a product of a specific smeltering process that purified it. The creation of impurities (supposedly carbides) in the alternating layers was supposedly a result of a forging technique practiced around Damascus from 900s to 1600s. However, it's the pattern welding part of it all that has now for hundreds of years been referred to by the "damascus" name. Does Tiramisu cake made in Canada have the right to be called "Tiramisu"? What about "Peking Duck"?

On top of it all, let's imagine that someone today successfully produced a carbide-layered steel with the properties very similar or identical to the few remaining pieces of original. Would it have the right to be called "Damascus"?

[Gareth]

You're correct it isn't worth agonising about, but it does make for an interesting conversation.   There's nothing wrong with highlighting a mistake and providing more detailed information.  Raukodur was correctly pointing out that the modern damascus steel isn't the same as modern factory made damamsteel (that these are made from) and suggesting they're the same stuff is perhaps misleading at best.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking these knives or the material they're made from, they look excellent and it's obvious that Roger has put a lot of time and effort into getting these made.

[Raukodur]

As I said, I don't know why it irks me so much, probably because by marketing it as an ancient and antique process, they charge exorbitant prices for it. Fair enough, you pay for for a harder steel which cuts better and retains its edge better and you have a cool look, but the prices charged are, in some instances, close to prices you might expect to pay for real Damascus if you could find it (slight exaggeration there), and I believe this is directly due to the purposefully misleading advertising of these blades as being similar to the ancient weapons, which they aren't in any way except for looks.

[ufox9al]

You're correct it isn't worth agonising about, but it does make for an interesting conversation.   There's nothing wrong with highlighting a mistake and providing more detailed information.  Raukodur was correctly pointing out that the modern damascus steel isn't the same as modern factory made damamsteel (that these are made from) and suggesting they're the same stuff is perhaps misleading at best.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking these knives or the material they're made from, they look excellent and it's obvious that Roger has put a lot of time and effort into getting these made.

Discussion is great, and you bring up a point, not brought up by Raukodur. His comment was regading "modern damascus" vs. "original damascus". But, you are right in that these Pioneers use stainless damasteel, which is a completely different steel, made possible by some modern Swedish magic.

The quoted description, which is included with the SAK, it was prepared by Victorinox' marketing people, and actually makes a stress on visual properties of the danascus pattern, rather then the steel's performance. From what Roger tells me, while he is delighted with this SAK being released, he is still working on having "user" (rather than "collector") versions produced, with both stainless damasteel, non-stainless "modern damascus", and possibly other steels.