2010 Damascus Pioneer

[MultiMat]

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Time for those pics again 

Man alive that looks SO SO SO NICE 

[ICanFixThat]

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel. The multiple folding and forge welding led to a homogenization of the material, and required a great deal of skill and dedication. Then as now, the crowning highlight in the production of a Damascus blade was the finish. Because only the grinding, polishing and etching reveals the characteristic pattern, and thereby provides a glimpse into the soul of the steel. (The blade of this knife is manufactured from stainless high quality Damascus steel, 60 HRc)

This is just a blatant lie, like I have tried to point out in a previous thread. The CURRENT damascus (which is pattern welded steel) is NOT the same as the damascus steel which is 1000s of years old (it just looks the same). THAT antique damascus was special not only because of the process of folding, but also specifically the special WOOTZ (sp) ore that came from the indian subcontinent region which had the specific combination of impurities to give the damascus weapons their incredible hardness and flexibility which made such excellent swords (which for a long time now is unavailable, hence why damascus weapons stopped being made).

Fine, you can say this new damascus gives a better edge than the other metal used for SAK knives, BUT why the need to try and mislead buyers by trying to link it to real damascus steel, which it in now way is.

Dunno why this irks me so much.

You're quite right in that "Damascus" has come to mean any pattern welded steel, whereas it really was originally only meant for the steel you describe above.  At the time lots of cultures produced pattern welded steel, but it was the special steel form Damascus that had the great reputation.  I might be slightly more generous and call it "misinformed and wrong" rather than a blatant lie though.

I will also add what I think is an important point; 'welded steel' has an ancient history in sword making that actually predates "Damascus".  Since Victorinox is not responsible for the transition of the term "Damascus Steel" to a less precise term, their quote is not really inaccurate at all. 

One more inportant point is it not only shares a similar characteristic pattern (much as Damascus resembles welded-steel), it also shares the characteristic of increased hardness. 

So overall I can't find much fault with their characterization of the steel, of course we have to understand it is not made with ancient techniques, it does not have all the same properties of ancient steels, but it does resemble them in the two most important ways, the appearance and increased strength.  Then goes one better in that it's stainless. 

Wonderful Job!

[Gareth]

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel. The multiple folding and forge welding led to a homogenization of the material, and required a great deal of skill and dedication. Then as now, the crowning highlight in the production of a Damascus blade was the finish. Because only the grinding, polishing and etching reveals the characteristic pattern, and thereby provides a glimpse into the soul of the steel. (The blade of this knife is manufactured from stainless high quality Damascus steel, 60 HRc)

This is just a blatant lie, like I have tried to point out in a previous thread. The CURRENT damascus (which is pattern welded steel) is NOT the same as the damascus steel which is 1000s of years old (it just looks the same). THAT antique damascus was special not only because of the process of folding, but also specifically the special WOOTZ (sp) ore that came from the indian subcontinent region which had the specific combination of impurities to give the damascus weapons their incredible hardness and flexibility which made such excellent swords (which for a long time now is unavailable, hence why damascus weapons stopped being made).

Fine, you can say this new damascus gives a better edge than the other metal used for SAK knives, BUT why the need to try and mislead buyers by trying to link it to real damascus steel, which it in now way is.

Dunno why this irks me so much.

You're quite right in that "Damascus" has come to mean any pattern welded steel, whereas it really was originally only meant for the steel you describe above.  At the time lots of cultures produced pattern welded steel, but it was the special steel form Damascus that had the great reputation.  I might be slightly more generous and call it "misinformed and wrong" rather than a blatant lie though.

I will also add what I think is an important point; 'welded steel' has an ancient history in sword making that actually predates "Damascus".  Since Victorinox is not responsible for the transition of the term "Damascus Steel" to a less precise term, their quote is not really inaccurate at all. 

One more inportant point is it not only shares a similar characteristic pattern (much as Damascus resembles welded-steel), it also shares the characteristic of increased hardness. 

So overall I can't find much fault with their characterization of the steel, of course we have to understand it is not made with ancient techniques, it does not have all the same properties of ancient steels, but it does resemble them in the two most important ways, the appearance and increased strength.  Then goes one better in that it's stainless. 

Wonderful Job!

As you say welded steel does indeed pre-date "Damascus".  my understanding is that all true Damascus is pattern welded steel, but not all pattern welded steel is Damascus.  I'm not sure that any of this absolves Victorinox from all responsibility though.   A commonly held myth is still a myth after all, no matter how many times it's repeated and who is saying it.

[Raukodur]

Damascus steel was not only made from a specific ore, but was also folded from what I have read.

And for any sword to be truly special it needs to combine the properties of a hard edge which can be honed to razor sharpness, and flexibility for the sword to be able to take punishment without breaking (many materials will give you a terrific edge, but are brittle, so will break, and the opposite, materials which are flexible and will not break, but cannot retain a sharp edge).

The samurai swords did this by combining two pieces of metals to make their sword, the edge part was V shaped, and folded many times to increase its hardness and let them put that wicked edge on it. Then they would put a softer steel into the spine of the V, hammer it together and cool it. The sword up to this point was straight, the characteristic curvature of the samurai sword is due to the differential properties of these two steels incorporated, one would shrink more than the other causing it to have the curve when they removed it from the water barrel / bucket. The softer spine gave the sword its flexibility and allowed it to not break when other swords, which were just made out of the multi-folded hardened steel, would.

With damascus weapons, if I am correct from what I have read on the matter, it was the properties of the ore they were using, which, when folded many times created a steel which was both strong and flexible (so you have reports from european soldiers who went on the crusades that the easteners had swords which could cut through their swords but still retain their terrific sharpness).

I dont know where the modern steels knife makers like to use (e.g. D2, S30V etc) fall in this spectrum. It will be interested to hear about how the Vic SAK damascene blade fares when someone gets their hands on it. I was very interested when I found out about friction forged blades, and how using such an ingenious technique, they were able to produce blades they claim (and the reviews seem to back this up) have a hard sharp edge and a soft flexible spine, i.e. a 21st century samurai sword equivalent in a knife. Bloody expensive though.

[ICanFixThat]

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel. The multiple folding and forge welding led to a homogenization of the material, and required a great deal of skill and dedication. Then as now, the crowning highlight in the production of a Damascus blade was the finish. Because only the grinding, polishing and etching reveals the characteristic pattern, and thereby provides a glimpse into the soul of the steel. (The blade of this knife is manufactured from stainless high quality Damascus steel, 60 HRc)

This is just a blatant lie, like I have tried to point out in a previous thread. The CURRENT damascus (which is pattern welded steel) is NOT the same as the damascus steel which is 1000s of years old (it just looks the same). THAT antique damascus was special not only because of the process of folding, but also specifically the special WOOTZ (sp) ore that came from the indian subcontinent region which had the specific combination of impurities to give the damascus weapons their incredible hardness and flexibility which made such excellent swords (which for a long time now is unavailable, hence why damascus weapons stopped being made).

Fine, you can say this new damascus gives a better edge than the other metal used for SAK knives, BUT why the need to try and mislead buyers by trying to link it to real damascus steel, which it in now way is.

Dunno why this irks me so much.

You're quite right in that "Damascus" has come to mean any pattern welded steel, whereas it really was originally only meant for the steel you describe above.  At the time lots of cultures produced pattern welded steel, but it was the special steel form Damascus that had the great reputation.  I might be slightly more generous and call it "misinformed and wrong" rather than a blatant lie though.

I will also add what I think is an important point; 'welded steel' has an ancient history in sword making that actually predates "Damascus".  Since Victorinox is not responsible for the transition of the term "Damascus Steel" to a less precise term, their quote is not really inaccurate at all.  

One more inportant point is it not only shares a similar characteristic pattern (much as Damascus resembles welded-steel), it also shares the characteristic of increased hardness.  

So overall I can't find much fault with their characterization of the steel, of course we have to understand it is not made with ancient techniques, it does not have all the same properties of ancient steels, but it does resemble them in the two most important ways, the appearance and increased strength.  Then goes one better in that it's stainless.  

Wonderful Job!

As you say welded steel does indeed pre-date "Damascus".  my understanding is that all true Damascus is pattern welded steel, but not all pattern welded steel is Damascus.  I'm not sure that any of this absolves Victorinox from all responsibility though.   A commonly held myth is still a myth after all, no matter how many times it's repeated and who is saying it.

I don't see it being a myth, or half truth, it's just an change in the English language.  Like many terms such as Xerox and Kleenex they just get kind of diluted as most speakers do not care to use accurate terms then just want to communicate their throught and they do so mostly to other people that are not as precise or able to appreciate the subtle differences of say a Dairy Queen Ice Cream Cone (ice milk), and an Ice Cream cone, and an Ice "Cream" Cone, or a Frozen Custard.  It's just Ice Cream to them.

I guess being a major player in the history of knives, they could have been more careful, but they essentually used language as it is used in the present time and likely represents the average person's understanding.  It would be pretty hard for them to change people's use or understanding of the language.  

Could they have communicated their thoughts as effectively with different language?  I guess Maybe... to me the real disconnect is not the imprecise language but in equating the craftmanship of a swordsmith with the industrial processes of today.  Particularly I don't equate industrial mechanised processes as departing soul into the object of their production, but, at least metaphorically, I would say a craftsman does.

[ufox9al]

As mentioned in Roger's Damascus SAK History description, the steel used by Victorinox for this SAK is from Damasteel ( http://www.damasteel.com/ ). You can find some addtional information/specs there, as well as their take on history of damascus blades and manufacuring process they use.

[Raukodur]

I don't see it being a myth, or half truth, it's just an change in the English language.  Like many terms such as Xerox and Kleenex they just get kind of diluted as most speakers do not care to use accurate terms then just want to communicate their throught and they do so mostly to other people that are not as precise or able to appreciate the subtle differences of say a Dairy Queen Ice Cream Cone (ice milk), and an Ice Cream cone, and an Ice "Cream" Cone, or a Frozen Custard.  It's just Ice Cream to them.

I guess being a major player in the history of knives, they could have been more careful, but they essentually used language as it is used in the present time and likely represents the average person's understanding.  It would be pretty hard for them to change people's use or understanding of the language.  

Could they have communicated their thoughts as effectively with different language?  I guess Maybe... to me the real disconnect is not the imprecise language but in equating the craftmanship of a swordsmith with the industrial processes of today.  Particularly I don't equate industrial mechanised processes as departing soul into the object of their production, but, at least metaphorically, I would say a craftsman does.

I wasnt irked by their using the word damascus, which I think you have taken this issue to be about.

It was about this specific statement:

Damascus steel - the fine steel of the swordsmith
Damascus steel represents craftsmanship that goes back more than a thousand years. Even in antiquity, a few resourceful swordsmiths knew how to create blades of unusual toughness and hardness from different kinds of steel.

Which they mention to say, "Hey guys, look, we have a SAK for you, which has the equivalent of a 1000 year old blade on it, since its the same technique." When no, its not. And yes, you expect Victorinox, who speSmurfpillse in making swiss army KNIVES, in knowing this, and not purposely including such misleading statements. But then you don't expect the item to sell as well if the blurb contains the comments, "this knife is made from a technique called pattern welding, by which we have combined two metals of different colours to give it the beautiful damascene look, a lookalike of the antique damascus steel used for swords which made it famous."

[nuphoria]

That's a fair point.


I do however, think it's bloody lovely looking and would like it to be in my pocket thank you please

[sawman]

I'm staying out of this one.... I just thought it was a nice lookin SAK 

[ICanFixThat]

It's a Very Nice SAK!

[Kodiak]

Blah, blah, blah.....

This is a dream Alox SAK for alot of us. Finally a large blade with some serious steel!!!!! This is what I've always thought was lacking in a Swiss army knife. Good steel for the blade. I'm very exited and hope I can get one. I'd pay $200. In a heart beat for one because I know it would last forever.  IMO petty fighting about the exact steel pisses me off. It's a Rockwell of 60! Enough said. :O)

[Pacu]

I for one don't mine detailed discussions of blade steel and the definition clarification of damascus. Good reading there.

[AHB]

I for one don't mine detailed discussions of blade steel and the definition clarification of damascus. Good reading there.

+1 

[North Man]

Hi

The Damascus Pioneer is stunning beautiful!!!
This is a europe link from Victorinox
http://www.victorinox.com/product/1/100/1003/0.8201.J10?lang=en&  

P.S Swedish High-Grade Damascus, sounds nice! Odins eye..

[Grant Lamontagne]

Actually, as I found out in a recent discussion with the Powers that Be at Victorinox, the Damascus SAK is NOT due to any influence or inspiration from Roger.  In fact, the initial concept of a Damascus blade on a SAK was explored before Roger was even in contact with Victorinox.

According to Victorinox, Roger had absolutely nothing to do with the production of this knife.  In case anyone thinks I am making this up because of past history with Roger, this topic came up during a conference call in which another highly respected member was also a part, and I'm certain he would be able to verify that the idea came from within Victorinox, not from +B.

Def

[North Man]

Hi

Just to set the record i will not call+B lier,
NM

[Grant Lamontagne]

I didn't say that- I simply said that the story from Victorinox is different from the one coming from Roger.

Def

[ICanFixThat]

I certainly wouldn't be putting that tag on anyone at this point, it's well known that there are at least 10 sides to every story even if you're just talking with 3 people. Even high ranking people may not judge 'influence' correctly; I see it every day.  Often high ranking people have no clue what's happening in the trenches.  I'm not saying this is the case here (I have no clue), except I have an open mind which seems to be a rare thing these days. I'd try to respect all positions and try to get some real clarity... and as a realist I'll tell you... that's not always possible.  If any one has serious issues at Victorinox with Roger's version of events then they should have him adjust his website.  If they let it stand... then stand it does. 

I don't know who the other party was, but Dan Jacquart would be a good person to give a history of this historic event.

I'm really glad that the knife is out.  It's a real beauty... but since it has no scissors I'm going to have to change my EDC combo again so I can carry it every day.  It's in my pocket right now,  but so are my standard EDC items.  I may have to drop one alox for a Yeoman, or give up my Phillips (maybe not a bad idea as I have a well equiped Spirit-S).

I do appreciate though getting as complete a history as possible as I'm sure my SAK efforts reflect.  In case any one thinks though that history is some magic black/white true/false type of fact documenting, I can ashure you it is neither.  The truth is the complete story has already been lost, but some memories will be documented as they are recalled and will serve as a historical record of a nice event in the long history of the Swiss Army Knife.

What a Knife!

[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't know who the other party was, but Dan Jacquart would be a good person to give a history of this historic event.

These are the facts as I have them.

1.  About 6 years ago I became aware for Roger's initial attempts at a Damascus bladed SAK.  It was a cellidor model, and I believe had white scales.  At the time I was trying to help him sell them with my then new project, SOSAKOnline.com.  I listed it and several other of his models (including one supposedly forged from meteorite metal) for sale, but as they were somewhat expensive, I don't believe they ever sold.  Bottom line is, he did make the first damascus SAK blade that I was aware of.

2.  I first saw the Damascus Pioneer at this year's SHOT- it is a beauty, but no where on the knife, the box or the documentation does it list any designers or influential parties.  Roger has been taking credit since SHOT for their creation.

3.  During a conversation with the current head of Victorinox in North America, and co-creator of the SwissTool, he claimed that he had approached Charles Elsener with the idea for a Damascus bladed SAK some time ago (no mention of timeline, but he did say "years") but Charles was unsure of putting out a premium bladed version as he felt that some people might think that the regular steel wasn't very good.  So, the idea was back burnered.

Going with these pieces of information, and what I know of Victorinox, my guess, if I had to make one would be this:

The development of the Damascus Pioneer was something done in house, from concept to production.  I can't say it wouldn't have happened without Roger's input, but I would have to say that I believe he may have had some hand in convincing "Mr E" to go ahead with production.  I doubt he was the only factor, as we all know, Victorinox does what they want and in their own time.  Roger's input, coupled with the growing collector market, and following the reasonable success of the Reissue knives last year may have all played a part in the Damascus Pioneers.

To say that he was responsible for them I would have to say is inaccurate at best, as if they were all him, why are they not sold exclusively by him like the rest of his models?  To say he had absolutely nothing to do with it I think would be equally false, but that's what we were told by someone who is very well respected and should know more details than the rest of us.

It's up to us, as always, to draw our own conclusions.  After all, that's how we've all gotten the SAK history we currently have- people sharing what they know, and the rest being filled in with theories.

Def

[ICanFixThat]

Thanks for the history Grant!  I think your guess is also very well reasoned.

I think that clarifies what Grant was saying and we can just hope for more information to be released.

In the mean time I hope they start shipping the US alotment of these knives. Grant, in your conversation they didn't happen to mention when that might be did they?  I'm beginning to wonder if they're waiting for the fall shopping season here in North America.


A little OT: In many ways it's not hard to make a very strong argument that the current Vic steel is the best steel ever for a pocket knife. That is not to say if one changes goals of the design and marketing projects something else might not work better.  It's really awesome that Vic has produced a stainless Damascus bladed SAK, but it did cost a little more and it will be a little harder to sharpen. We're pretty lucky that now diamond sharpeners are very inexpensive and readily available.  The Swiss Army Knife continues to evolve, kudos to that Swedish company as well.... you guys are HOT.

[felinevet]

There are only 50 coming to North America and I am waiting on word if I can get any.

[Gadget Guy]

There are only 50 coming to North America and I am waiting on word if I can get any.

Mark me down for one if you do. 

[ufox9al]

Actually, as I found out in a recent discussion with the Powers that Be at Victorinox, the Damascus SAK is NOT due to any influence or inspiration from Roger....
According to Victorinox, Roger had absolutely nothing to do with the production of this knife....
Def

The above statement looks to me quite different from the clarification below.

...
Going with these pieces of information, and what I know of Victorinox, my guess, if I had to make one would be this:

The development of the Damascus Pioneer was something done in house, from concept to production.  I can't say it wouldn't have happened without Roger's input, but I would have to say that I believe he may have had some hand in convincing "Mr E" to go ahead with production.  I doubt he was the only factor, as we all know, Victorinox does what they want and in their own time.  Roger's input, coupled with the growing collector market, and following the reasonable success of the Reissue knives last year may have all played a part in the Damascus Pioneers.

To say that he was responsible for them I would have to say is inaccurate at best, as if they were all him, why are they not sold exclusively by him like the rest of his models?  To say he had absolutely nothing to do with it I think would be equally false, but that's what we were told by someone who is very well respected and should know more details than the rest of us.
...
Def

Based on the information I have:
1) Swiss Army Brands USA is not Victorinox, and often have no idea about what is and isn't happening in Ibach. They are a marketing and sales operation, and while I do not doubt that there has been extensive desing work done on Swisstool, as we all know, it originated from a purchased patent.

3) In addition to the original handmade version, Roger had the followoing Swedish Damasteel Odin's Eye prototype produced in 2007 at Victorinox factory in Ibach:

What does the SAB guy have to show for his concept?

4) The reason the 2010 Damascus Pioneer is NOT a special +B issue is because Victorinox fully bought into the concept, and took the ownership of it, just like they did with Roger's SAK pocket clip concept. Many of us wish for other things, like Alox Rambler or a Yeoman, to become regular Victorinox production.

So, as far as I understand, you are absolutely right in you last statement, all Roger did was spend 10 years convincing Victorinox to produce Damascus-bladed SAK, using the steel that he suggested, and based exactly on the prototype he made in 2007 (down to the Pioneer model and year engraving on the panel).

And that is also exactly what Roger claims to have done.

[North Man]

Hi

it is the historic aspect that is the most interesting, this model will make the Pioneer Range live on and on, they are really timeless. Only 2010 made. With all the work done and production says that this is perhaps the only run if so Victorinox could not have earned much for this. The production must have cost much!!
, i checked how much it would cost me to get one here and oops 230 USD so i must let it go...

Best
NM

[Grant Lamontagne]

So, as far as I understand, you are absolutely right in you last statement, all Roger did was spend 10 years convincing Victorinox to produce Damascus-bladed SAK, using the steel that he suggested, and based exactly on the prototype he made in 2007 (down to the Pioneer model and year engraving on the panel).

Not quite true- Roger hasn't been in contact with Victorinox for ten years.  It was about three to four years ago that Roger regaled us all with stories of his friend driving him through the Swiss Alps in a Smart Car to go visit Victorinox for the first time.

Also, Swiss Army Brands is no longer a separate entity- they are wholly owned by Victorinox, and have been for a few years now.  Plus, the gentleman I spoke with is quite close to Charles, talking to him several times a week.

I'd also like to point out that while Victorinox may have purchased Roger's pocket clip design, it is not the design they are currently using for their pocket clips, so that doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot.

Unfortunately, I doubt any of us will ever know the whole story, but I see no reason not to provide information I have gotten, and I think that folks with that many years working for the Elseners should probably not be written off as fantasy.

Def

[ICanFixThat]

Actually, as I found out in a recent discussion with the Powers that Be at Victorinox, the Damascus SAK is NOT due to any influence or inspiration from Roger....
According to Victorinox, Roger had absolutely nothing to do with the production of this knife....
Def

The above statement looks to me quite different from the clarification below.

I think it's pretty clear "... according too...".  I think people are a little too sensitive on the +B issue this time around.

Based on the information I have:
1) Swiss Army Brands USA is not Victorinox, and often have no idea about what is and isn't happening in Ibach. They are a marketing and sales operation, and while I do not doubt that there has been extensive desing work done on Swisstool, as we all know, it originated from a purchased patent.

I believe this is wrong, some time ago Victorinox bought up all the shares, and took it private.  It is 'Victorinox'.

I think +B's background of the event is likely a good summary; it does not detail every move in the last 10 years as that was not its intent.  Like I said if they let it stand, then stand it does.  How one might verbally express or represent events or how one might interpret such expessions is very subjective. The news is pretty much testament to that everyday.

Did I mention this is Great Knife?  Hope to get another picture today.

[North Man]

Hi

I must say to people that read this topic that the Pioneer Damascus is very real and has Victorinox on the blade, i am proud to say that i am not part of this arguing.

NM

[ICanFixThat]

Just a couple of friends getting together.

[North Man]

Two wonderful knives but? 
NM

[Grant Lamontagne]

Don't the antenna get in the way when using that pipe wrench? 

Def