Why the hostility toward self-defense?

[Zack]

In recent weeks this topic has come up a lot, and I think a dedicated thread would be the best to discuss it in, instead of hijacking others threads.  I'll give my take first.

If my family or loved ones, or even a stranger was in distress, and someone was hurting them I would do whatever it took to stop that from happening. This doesn't always mean hurting the attacker; quick thinking and quick feet can come into play.  However, if backed into a corner I will use what ever I have one me or what I can find to save my life and those around me.  I often carry a OHO "tactical" folder ( I feel tactical is becoming overused, but it fits in this context), and have trained with blades in the past, as well as pressure points and other self defense maneuverers.  Do I solely carry for SD? No, but I know its an option if need be.

SO what is the hostility towards fighting knives?  They are tools, but with a different objective and outcome.

Willing to field both sides, but, lets please keep it civil to avoid it being locked.

[Mr. Whippy]

Well, this is a loaded question, but...

If someone was attacking a family member, I'd use whatever I had at hand: knife, gun, shovel, chainsaw, chair, whatever.  In my part of the county, it wouldn't be a problem legally.

Let me go one step further.  In the northern part of the county, there's a sick individual burning down barns.  Three in August.  If I saw someone down by the barn (who wasn't supposed to be there) I'd confront them with a weapon (guns are loaded now until this guy is caught).

Again, since I live almost 1/4 mile up a driveway off a dead end road, there's no reason for someone to be hanging around the barn unannounced.

ymmv

[Zack]

I don't find it loaded at all.  There seems to be people on this forum who have an issue with it, and instead of dancing around the subject lets air it out.  I'll call it a Sociology project.

Oh, and Nate is a nice name, but the wife has other plans.

[nuphoria]

Obviously we are not supposed to have guns around here, but I think in all honesty if the law was different I might have one in the house. I'd quite like a tracking laser cannon mounted on the roof too, but hey... 

I do keep things like a golf club and a large Maglite in strategic places, and would not hesitate to use them as weapons if me and mine were under threat. I don't know what the hostility is towards to SD concept - I think it's just common sense. Some people are just freaked out by the way certain things look I guess, but a pretty knife in the kitchen will do just as much if not more damage that a "tactical" blade. It's just a matter of aesthetics and won't actually matter when the doodoo hits the fan.

Your best SD tool is usually your mind as ever, but it's useful to have something to hand to protect yourself should the need arise.

[Zack]

Thank you for your logical post.  So, home SD is covered, but what about when you are out and about.  I know if I'm by myself I would be more willing to fight off the attacker, but if I had my family with me and all he wanted is my wallet...then the wallet he gets.  However, if he wants to get physical then I'm willing to do that as well, at least till my family has run for cover and safety.  We do have a safety plan as well, Marie gets the baby and runs to the car while I fend off the attacker, and she dials 911.  People think I am wacko, but she appreciates it especially from her not so great upbringing.

[RaptorMan]

I have knives but prefer the pair of 9mm's. One is in a digital lockbox under the bed and the other is usually on me. Luckily here in Ohio we are told if there shot outside your door pull them in a couple feet makes the paperwork easier and faster to process.

We have decent laws here so home protection is not an issue knives or guns it doesnt matter much.

[Mr. Whippy]

Thank you for your logical post.  So, home SD is covered, but what about when you are out and about.  I know if I'm by myself I would be more willing to fight off the attacker, but if I had my family with me and all he wanted is my wallet...then the wallet he gets.  However, if he wants to get physical then I'm willing to do that as well, at least till my family has run for cover and safety.  We do have a safety plan as well, Marie gets the baby and runs to the car while I fend off the attacker, and she dials 911.  People think I am wacko, but she appreciates it especially from her not so great upbringing.

Very similar to our plan.  (Except The Bosslady is a better shot...)

[nuphoria]

That's not whacko - you have planned for something that might save your life one day.

Being prepared is an option and a personal choice which I suspect most people don't take, and I understand that laid back mentality too.
I'm not quite in the let it be camp myself obviously

Out of the house, I nearly always have a legal blade on me, I also have a fairly hefty keyring in my pocket so would happily use it to help to some damage to an attacker. If it's just a wallet they are after, the sensible thing is to give it up, but if they intend to do harm to anyone, I don't think I could lay down and let it happen. I would defend myself in any way I could.

It makes me feel safer knowing that I have at least considered these things. I have probably forgotten most of the martial arts I studied years ago now, but I'm fairly certain if someone tried to strangle me from behind, I would have broken both of their elbows with a few seconds and still have one hand free to cause more trouble!
I'm not paranoid and don't walk around expecting it to happen, but in the real world things do sometimes happen and they have in the past. I carry bandaids and a torch for the same reason.. I like to be in control of my environment if possible and I believe it's the smart thing to do

[jzmtl]

What is this self defense thing? I don't think we are allowed to do that in Canada. 

[Medic82]

We got into a discussion at the gun club last Saturday when one of the older members told a story that happened a year ago to his son. We have a gang in Norway called B-gjengen (B-Team in English, and yes there is a A-team) ironically that is what the Beagle Boys are called in Norway. Anyhow, one of the members of the B-Team heard a rumor that the son had been doing the horizontal polka with his sister and he got pretty pissed, the main problem was that he is Norwegian and she is from Pakistan and Muslim. So they showed up 7 people at his door and when he didn’t open up they started to chop through the door with an axe. The soon sent his father a message that he needed to call the cops really fast, since he lived down the road he packed his Python on him and went over to see what was happening. The cops came and arrested the entire bunch and he didn’t need to shoot anyone.

But here is the issue, how many of the 4 of us would shoot the Colorful Enunciations? One said no, the other was in doubt and 2 said hell yes, shot them twice.

Self defense is (in Norway at least) a tricky subject since carrying a gun is a big no-no and if you don’t have a just cause then carrying a knife or MT is a little no-no, even something that can be classified as a weapon, like a cubaton, Cold Steel Sharkie Pen, Schrade Tactical Defense Pen on you they might even get confiscated by the police if you are stopped for some reason. But you can lawfully carry a can of self defense spray that is based on alcohol and not pepper/CS spray.

But what it boils down to in Norway is how did you defend yourself and what force did you use (dark side??) , if the attacker was an anorectic midget with a 1 inch blade you would be so thrown in jail if you shot and killed her, but if it was a 250 pound man with a machete you could justify killing him, but that have to be proven in a court of law.

When it comes to me I would do anything to avoid a fight but I feel sorry for the Colorful Enunciation that tries to pull something on me cause I will do everything to defend myself.

[Grant Lamontagne]

What is this self defense thing? I don't think we are allowed to do that in Canada. 

Actually, the law is quite lenient in Canada.  Unlike the US "black and white" system of absolutes, ours is based on what any reasonable thinking person would do.  So, basically, if you can make enough of a case that at least one person out of the twelve jury members admits that they might do the same thing under the same circumstances, then you are essentially in the clear.

I believe in self defense- it is an important part of daily life, but Chrissy is right when she says your mind is the best defense.  Situational awareness is perhaps the best method of defending yourself and your family, as is a basic knowledge of environmental tactics.  This can be as simple as crossing the street to avoid a crowd, or something much more significant- say planning a route in advance that allows a multitude of options. 

Because of this, I don't usually support the carry of a dedicated fighting knife, simply because, for the most part, a fighting knife is really not good for much else, and unless you regularly find yourself rumbling with the Sharks (or Jets depending on which side of town you live on) chances are it will be unfamiliar in your hand- definitely something you don't want if you are in a position where you have to pull and use it.  In a case like that, a Charge, Wave, Zilla, OHT or any other OH opening multitool is likely to be more benefit in a fight simply because you use it more often, and therefore your hands will use it with greater skill when the adrenalin dumps into your system, you lose fine motor control and muscle memory takes over.

Do I have fighting knives?  Yes I do.  I don't carry them though, as for the most part they are large and scary and don't have bottle openers and screwdrivers on them, and I tend to use those functions more than anything else.  I also have keys on a lengthy carabiner that can be used as a flail, I have a densely packed leather wallet that can be used as a projectile (cash is always in my pocket and never in my wallet so I don't mind giving it up, despite the inconvenience of replacing various ID and credit cards) and a fair bit of actual training coupled with a goodly amount of experience in cqb.  And, Mr Whippy is absolutely right when he says that he'll use anything he has handy.

Bruce Lee was famous for that if you recall.  He said that if a person brings a knife to a fight, then that person has already lost, as he is concentrating on that one weapon to carry him through, while Bruce was able to use anything at all to fight- feet, elbows, knees, fists, teeth, forehead or anything he may pick up along the way like sticks, rocks, dirt etc.  Because he had more options and was less limited than the guy with the knife, he was never worried about the outcome of a fight.  Now I'm not in the same kind of shape that Bruce was, but then that leads us to the Drew Carey school of fighting.  Fopr those who don't know, comedian Drew Carey was a US Marine before getting fat and doughey and ending up on TV.  He was quite famous at one point for stating that if he got in a fight, he'd have to kill the other guy quick, because he was out of shape.  Funny?  yes.  True?  Absolutely.

Plus the Use of Force Continuum states that you have the right to meet force with force plus one, meaning you are legally justified to meet an attack with a greater response, and hopefully draw it to a conclusion with instant escalation.  The introduction of a weapon and being outnumbered automatically jump the level to a justification for lethal force, and as an instructor of mine once said, if they are asking for full service, give them full service.  In that case, you are pretty well justified to use a knife, bat or anything else to remove the threat.

I don't believe in calling the police until afterwards.  I have had some very bad experiences with cops letting some very bad people go because they didn't feel like filling out the paperwork.  I know most cops are not like that, but enough are that I don't want to take the chance.  It would be bad if these people came after me again, but it would be even worse if these people committed other crimes to other people, so when I get the opportunity to hurt someone who is attacking me (not at work though- those people are just drunk and their thought patterns are impaired when they take shots at me, and I don't blame them for that) I usually respond with the maximum allowable force.  If there's the hint of a weapon, if they outnumber me, or if it's even one guy who is significantly larger than me, I will seriously injure him, as I would imagine it's a real b*tch to try and mug someone when you are in a wheelchair.

Def

[jzmtl]

Fopr those who don't know, comedian Drew Carey was a US Marine before getting fat and doughey and ending up on TV.  He was quite famous at one point for stating that if he got in a fight, he'd have to kill the other guy quick, because he was out of shape.  Funny?  yes.  True?  Absolutely.

Never knew that! I looked up a photo and would never link the two until someone mentioned it.

 

[nuphoria]

Woah! He looks so different 

[jekostas]

I'm probably one of the people that Zack's talking about in his first post, and that's fine - I've chimed in a number of times on the topic.

I have no hostility towards self-defense.  None.  Zip, zero, zilch, nada.

What I DO have a problem with is using knives as self-defense tools, especially civilian carry, and it's more of a mindset and training issue than anything else.  Guns and knives are incredibly difficult items to use properly - they both require repeated, structured training with a qualified, experienced instructor and a not-insignificant time investment.  I don't personally shoot (I've received a few concussions playing organized sports and have terrible aim), but I've found in experience that people willing and able to carry a pistol for self-defense are willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to use that item successfully.  Perhaps it's because the mindset is that guns are dangerous, perhaps it's because for any person willing to follow State/Provincial/Federal laws, guns aren't that easy to obtain, especially concealable weapons.  That extra level in difficulty obtaining them seems to engender a desire to use them properly.

I have not found this to be the case with knives.  You could carry around a kitchen knife if you so wanted.

(Yes I am aware that these are generalizations).

Knives are not easy to use.  The successful draw rate for people that have basic SD training with a bladed weapon is in the realm of 20% with a fixed blade knife.  Successful draw and deployment for folding knives is under 10%.  In the close quarters that you would have to be in for a knife to be a viable method of self-defense, stumbling around trying to draw and employ a blade will likely get you to the magical 3-hit mark from an assailant very, very quickly.  I did various martial arts as a method of recuperating from a broken back a few years ago and my instructor repeatedly made the point that using a blade in a fight is much more difficult than a gun.  Guns, you aim and shoot.  Maybe use as a striking weapon if an assailant gets too close.  Very one-dimensional in that aspect.

Knives?  You have to worry about cutting yourself.  You need to worry about creating space and using it effectively with an assailant (or assailants) and knives can strike and hurt in many ways, to both you AND whomever's attacking you.  Also, as Grant's already mentioned - using a knife (or any weapon, for that matter) effectively also means you can't focus on only using that weapon to the expense of others at your disposal.  The problem with a knife over gun or even a stick is again, you need to be in very close quarters to use it effectively to begin with (unless you can somehow get away with carrying a sword around)*.

That is, of course, you don't completely bork trying to draw and deploy your knife in the first place because all of your fine motor control goes right out the window under stress, one of the reasons that classic fighting knives like patterned combat knives and the Al Mar/Spyderco Warrior knives were designed to work with gross motor control.  Big handles, big blades, no special movements needed to draw or use.

The thing that really bothers me is that there seems to be a move towards "training-free" knives.  Why are karambits so popular these days?  Yeah, they were advertised as self-defense knives for the mostly untrained through popular print media.  They're effective in creating disabling cuts with little training, but again, actually pulling off a cut in a fight is such a small part of the entire issue as to be nearly non-existent.  You need to know footwork.  You need to know how to create and use space.  You need to know how to draw and deploy the knife.  You need to know in what situations and in what space you will be able to successfully draw and use a knife, and when it's reasonable to do so.
When Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel, Mr. Everything-I-Make-Is-A-Weapon chimes in and says that karambits are absolute bullsh*t for the general population, well, I don't take what he says as law, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Yet look how popular they've become.

*As an amusing aside, I recently learned that is in fact legal to carry both extendable batons and swordcanes in Canada.

[Freudian Frog]

Jekostas, I totally agree with you.

I like to carry knives, but in what few self-defense situations I've been in I've only drawn once (and only as a scare tactic). I have very little training in knife combat and I would not trust myself with it in that situation. Everytime I get a new EDC blade I practice drawing it out of pocket and deploying it in various physical conditions. It's definitely not something I would attempt under stress, when I've almost impaled my foot in the comfort of my own room.

And all the idiots (there's a lot of them - I know a lot of them) out there parading around with little to no training and a combat-oriented knife, I fear and fear for.

[Andreas]

My problem is not with using self defense gear for self defense, but rather the fact that there's nothing stopping people from using the same gear offensively. People might claim it's only for self defense, but if antagonized I'm guessing there's a fair amount of people who would reconsider the use of the knife in their pocket. I wouldn't ever feel safe walking around a city where so many people are armed for self defense. If you really want to stab someone, yes a kitchen knife will do the job, but you don't normally carry around a kitchen knife.

By pure matter of definition, carrying anything for self defense means you don't trust your safety to people around you. Why then should the people around you trust you? If we had identification badges that said "this man will definitely never use his knife offensively" then sure, it would be fine, but if I meet a complete stranger on the street who carry a knife I have absolutely no way of knowing if it's a good guy or bad guy. At least over here, if I see someone with a scary looking knife I know to run, not stand around to see if he's a nice guy wanting to show me his EDC SD knife. It's like having an entire city covered with land mines, where 99.9% of them were inert. Sure the amount of real ones would be the same as if there were no inert ones, but at least then you wouldn't constantly have to step on inert landmines and have your life flash before your eyes. You also wouldn't have the risk of one of those inert mines not being inert anyways...

I realize those in the US have a completely different view on this, because it's just how things work there. In Norway, cops don't even use guns except for special circumstances - there's no need to. No one is armed except the crazy people, and those are much farther apart. No cop would ever suspect the driver of a car to be carrying a gun over here, unless that person is a criminal. God knows how many episodes of Cops I've seen where normally innocent people have pulled a weapon on someone. it's so conveniently placed, so when emotions take over normal restrictions go out the window.

Again, I realize there's different "needs" in some countries, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Child labor is a necessity in some countries in order to provide the family with food. Stop that, and they die. Is the problem the child labor or the system? The system. Does that means I have to like or in any way encourage child labor? No. To me, SD gear represents a system that in my mind is so beyond reason that it seriously makes me nauseated. kind of what you'd think if you saw an advertisement for working clothes for an 8 year old. Again, in some countries child labor is a necessity because of the system, but I think most people would feel a bit sick seeing such an ad.

[AddictedToTools]

I have nothing against self-defence, it's just that when a lot of people see self-defence knives, they somehow get the idea that all knives are fighting knives, and that anyone who carries one (any kind of knife that is) is a murderer.

[Zed]

I was in a situation 16 years ago where i nearly got 10 years in prison due to being attacked and  defending myself, a guy who had a grudge with my step brother came around the house where me and my brother was living he started to bash the door in and was shouting, me and my brother had been out all evening drinking so we was drunk,i opened the door and he took a swipe at me, he missed and i hit back, sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control, trust me if you met me you would know im a sound guy but drink etc , well i ended up getting into big trouble and they was trying to pin a 10 year sentence, they took into account i was a boxer and that didnt help, well in the end i got common assault and max community service and a whopping £1000 payment the the guy trying to break into my house,as i said the drink did not help as i gave the guy 4 big hits, this is the only time in my life i have got in to trouble and the last as it would effect my job now as a carer, but would i defend my family oh yes big time and by what ever means possible, i keek a knife at the back of my bed side draw and if hand guns was legal here i would have one hid away,its thae same on the streets, they guys going out intent on harm have knives etc and what do we have  

paul    

[Andreas]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

[jzmtl]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Proves your point of what, that because some people might use knife etc. as criminal tools so nobody should carry them?

[cerbera147]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Not sure it does 

From what I read no weapons were involved just good old fashioned bare knuckles and a healthy dose of adrenaline 

[Andreas]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Proves your point of what, that because some people might use knife etc. as criminal tools so nobody should carry them?

Proves my point that people who are good guys and who's only intention is self defense might not be in such full control over themselves as they think. If this guy had carried a SD knife with him, he might have killed the guy. His intention wasn't criminal in this instance, but as he himself said, the heat of the moment and him being drunk made him go over the top. Humans are emotional beings that can't be trusted to have full control over themselves, so arming everyone with self defense gear is just the same as arming everyone with potential offensive gear.

[Benner]

Andreas, I could pick so many holes in your arguement that your post would look like a holey cheese!    Sadly I have to go to the beach today so I will have to play later. 

[jzmtl]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Proves your point of what, that because some people might use knife etc. as criminal tools so nobody should carry them?

Proves my point that people who are good guys and who's only intention is self defense might not be in such full control over themselves as they think. If this guy had carried a SD knife with him, he might have killed the guy. His intention wasn't criminal in this instance, but as he himself said, the heat of the moment and him being drunk made him go over the top. Humans are emotional beings that can't be trusted to have full control over themselves, so arming everyone with self defense gear is just the same as arming everyone with potential offensive gear.

That's downright ridiculous. By your argument hundreds of thousands of people who carry things that's capable of killing others should all turn into bloodthirsty murderers, yet none of them does it unless they are killers to begin with. People have been beating each other to death with their fists since the beginning of mankind, if anyone want to kill they'll kill, having a pocket knife won't change that.

What you are arguing is like saying all men should be neutered because there are a few rapists running around.

[Zed]

sadly due to the moment and drink it went over the top and out of control

I think this proves my point about defense and offense using the same tools pretty well... Couldn't have paid someone to make my point any better

Proves your point of what, that because some people might use knife etc. as criminal tools so nobody should carry them?

Proves my point that people who are good guys and who's only intention is self defense might not be in such full control over themselves as they think. If this guy had carried a SD knife with him, he might have killed the guy. His intention wasn't criminal in this instance, but as he himself said, the heat of the moment and him being drunk made him go over the top. Humans are emotional beings that can't be trusted to have full control over themselves, so arming everyone with self defense gear is just the same as arming everyone with potential offensive gear.

That's downright ridiculous. By your argument hundreds of thousands of people who carry things that's capable of killing others should all turn into bloodthirsty murderers, yet none of them does it unless they are killers to begin with. People have been beating each other to death with their fists since the beginning of mankind, if anyone want to kill they'll kill, having a pocket knife won't change that.

What you are arguing is like saying all men should be neutered because there are a few rapists running around.

you also have to take in to account the the law doesnt tolerate drunk people or take this as a reason for my actions even though i had never been in trouble before or after this situation, im not a knife user so i cant of seen that happening but due to my background they took my fists as weapons and made a example of me,i do have to add that i was once stabbed in the hand as was defending my self, i pinned them down in that situation as i usually do, as for drink, ive not touched it since,  be careful out there   

paul

[Andreas]

That's downright ridiculous. By your argument hundreds of thousands of people who carry things that's capable of killing others should all turn into bloodthirsty murderers, yet none of them does it unless they are killers to begin with.

I didn't say anything of the sort, please try to read what I write before you run your moth off. I responded to someone who almost got 10 years in jail for beating up someone - in self defense - with his fists, admitting he went over the top because of the situation. The exact same situation with a SD knife involved might very well have ended in a killing, or do you suggest that someone so drunk he can't control his fists in a SD fight would be able to control a sharp blade?

As Paul says, alcohol was a major player here. I very much doubt people who carry self defense knives leave them in a drawer when drinking...

[Benner]

Keep this sensible, keep this on topic, and keep this friendly guys please.

[Andreas]

Let me put it another way: Those that carry SD knives, do it because they fear they might have to use it, even if they doubt it. That means they don't really trust everyone they meet on the street. Well, neither do I, but I'd be much more willing to trust someone who isn't carrying a "SD" knife around

[Chako]

Quite a few people don't know anything about knives. They carry tactical knives as work knives because they like the looks, the feel, whatever.

Not all people who carry them are looking to kill people, or even to defend themselves. They use them as work knives. When it comes down to it, it is nothing more than sharp steel which can be used for things other than its original purpose.

Seriously...come on Andreas. You are talking extremes here.

[John]

There's no hostility toward self defense but there are laws relating to it 

In the UK the law is clear, carry anything including a SAK and use it in a offensive way and you will find yourself on charges I doubt the defense "acted in self defense" will help you.It is also clear that in a self defense situation reasonable force may be used again the law here will determine "possibly" in court whether reasonable force was used,if not you may find yourself in prison.

Now I said the law is clear and some may say there are grey areas as to what is considered proportionate force used in self defense in your own home,if for instance you awaken to a noise and find a person wielding a knife,then it would be reasonable to match that with a knife of your own,now that doesn't mean you can kill the person no! you would still have to try and take steps to avoid blood shed especially if your burglar is backing off and heading for the door, on the other hand if you came across a person about to stab your loved ones while sleeping then it would be considered reasonable to use the knife to incapacitate that person even if his life was lost.


Usually I do not like discussing SD as it brings up so many variables and views from so many different people all around the world,it almost becomes impossible for everyone to agree,for me "SD is what it is" to defend myself or my loved ones as and when it's required, as to whether I used  proportionate reasonable force,well I'll have to leave that to the lawyers and courts to decide it's just the way it's done here.



Finley tune your awareness to your surroundings and you are better able to avoid confrontation in the first place,stay safe.