I got burned - time for us to make up a rating system for MT's

[eodtech]

I recently did a trade and the item I got was not properly described, not even close, and it was my fault because I did not ask for pictures before I traded, and we really need to rectify the situation. Every person has a different opinion of light use, minor blemishes even LNIB, etc. I think the only term that does not need to ne defined is " New In Box ".

I see no reason to reinvent the wheel, some where out there on the WWW there has to be a table and definition of the various grades there are for tools, knives, etc.

Once "they" are found myself or maybe a team of MTO members could review all that are found and come up with a standard tool / knife rating guide .

That way every member would be required to go by the ratings and the buyer would have a pretty good idea of what he was getting into.


Comments __________________________________________________

[jzmtl]

Not much of a chance for that to happen, like you said, people define condition differently and never read stickies, so they won't even see it. I once saw a "good condition" knife for sale, the included pic show a knife with blade scratched to hell, and at least 1/4" of tip broken.

The best way is still to ask for pics.

[eodtech]

The best way is still to ask for pics.

+1 - then you get the excuse: my girl friend went to Mexico for the month and my digital camera is in her backpack, no lie, it really is, you can trust me I wouldn't  BS you!

[AHB]

I never had any problems here...  Pics and proper communication kept me out of any "troubles"..  

[cerbera147]

I got a Juice S2 from GadgetGuy described as a beater; I would describe it as like new 

Goes to show the other end of the scale. Quite a few people would be harsher than normal on their stuff in the interests of full disclosure; most of those people are on here 

[Andreas]

The best way is still to ask for pics.

+1 - then you get the excuse: my girl friend went to Mexico for the month and my digital camera is in her backpack, no lie, it really is, you can trust me I wouldn't  BS you!

If they lie about that they will lie about the condition anyways, and in the end it's your choice to go through with the trade picture-less

[Pacu]

i try to take as many pics as i can when trading..then a follow up email asking if they are satisfied with the trade. I'd trade back on my dime if they didn't like the condition of my trade.

[Gareth]

I can't see that it would hurt to have some broad definitions set out.  Whether people then use them is another question.

[edcgear]

I didn't get any trades here. But I think people in here are well aware of their tool and kondicion of them, so I tend to believe to description. But there is one common rule for trades and used stuff...

"It's a cat in the bag!!"

I think there should be rule established... No pic, no trade!!

I mean c'mon, everyone has camera, if not dedicated then on phone, even laptops have cam's with 2Mpix or something (almost all of my pics were taken by low end NOKIA 2700 with 2Mpix cam without flash)... Even if it is crapy cam, you can take few more macros, or take specific pics on demand...

Excuse my spelling!! 

[Gareth]

I believe that Grant has always maintained that the site is not going to impose rules on trades and that it's always down to the people involved to sort things out.  So if the person can't provide pics it's still up to you if you want to go ahead with the trade. 

Also remember that the feedback forum isn't just for giving praise, if you genuinely think you've been deliberately mislead and the situation hasn't been resolved by PM's then let the rest of us know that you've have a deal gone bad.

[Neil]

I believe that Grant has always maintained that the site is not going to impose rules on trades and that it's always down to the people involved to sort things out.  So if the person can't provide pics it's still up to you if you want to go ahead with the trade. 

Also remember that the feedback forum isn't just for giving praise, if you genuinely think you've been deliberately mislead and the situation hasn't been resolved by PM's then let the rest of us know that you've have a deal gone bad.

What Gareth said    MTO is very much a platform only, the details of trades are entirely the responsibility of the individuals concerned.

In response to Andrew's original post; I do understand and have thought about this.  Everyone's definitions are different and that is a problem.  In some areas of collecting there does seem to be a grading system (coins, stamps) but as far as I'm aware there is nothing for knives and tools.

Luckily we live in the 2010 and there really is no excuse for not providing pictures to accompany sales/trades.  Unless I'd previously dealt with a seller many times before I wouldn't accept a trade without reasonable pictures.

There are sellers out there who are perfectly decent people who just work to a different scale than I do and I have sometimes been disappointed.  That doesn't make them bad people, it means we have different definitions in our head. 

Pictures are the way to go to keep everyone happy.

[DaveK]

I can't see that it would hurt to have some broad definitions set out.  Whether people then use them is another question.

Totally agree! What harm can it do? Obviously some people will perceive what is a "Grade 1" tool differently than some others, but if there were a table of guidelines that defines something like:

Grade B: No damage to blades or tools, not resharpened, but may have pocket scratches or cosmetic signs of wear" (just for example, haven't thought it through)

... then it might help somewhat!

Also remember that the feedback forum isn't just for giving praise, if you genuinely think you've been deliberately mislead and the situation hasn't been resolved by PM's then let the rest of us know that you've have a deal gone bad.

Spot on. Most "bad" trades here would be down to misunderstandings and naivety rather than people trying to screw each other. Sometimes, discussing experiences in the feedback forum and gaining others' opinions will help traders to understand why the person they traded with is so p*ssed off and I would venture that 99% of the time, things get sorted out satisfactorily.

Sort of related, I would really like to see a trade feedback scoring system introduced to this site (not sure if such mod is available for SMF or whether it's something Def would want to pursue, but the system they have in place at British Blades for example is really excellent).

Just my two-penneth, sorry you got burned Andrew

[Neil]

Can't see a feedback system being introduced Dave.  There is talk (which may or may not happen) of enabling a trading rather than selling mechanism for EDCS and that already has a feedback system in place.

[DaveK]

Can't see a feedback system being introduced Dave.  There is talk (which may or may not happen) of enabling a trading rather than selling mechanism for EDCS and that already has a feedback system in place.

That would amount to the same thing in my eyes Neil - great

Just another random thought that popped into my head (just now). When EDCS was first setup, Whoey had a feature where new EDCS listings were posted as threads on the forum here. It got turned off (I think) because it was "spamming" the forum a bit ()

Thinking out loud now, but would it be possible to create a read-only forum, within the trade section, where these automated notifications could be switched on again. I'm thinking that this would bridge the "gap" between the trade forums and EDCS a bit,which IMO is criminally underused!

My company normally charge customers a grand a day for ideas like these, but you have it for free*






* Offer ends 30/09/2010. Subject to availability. Calls may cost lots.

[Neil]

LoL   Yes that's something else that's been discussed.

I will add that whilst that's not in place "The Management" is all for those listing on EDCS to add links to their auctions from the Deals And Auctions section. 

Adding links to your own sales on other auction sites is still frowned upon though. ... unless you've just dumped a truck load of hard cash on Def's door step in which case apparently anything goes

[edcgear]

When speaking about rules what I ment is general concesus about having pics in/with trade post...

My English is not as good as I would like it to be, so sometimes I use some phrases which can be misunderstud... And with this said I also agree that most "bad" tradings are result of misunderstand... Or as one of my favorite writters said "80% of problems comes out of misunderstanding..." 

Ofcourse it is on traders to freely choose in posting pics or not, and upon anyone who accept trades is would he ask for pics and detailed description or not...

As I have said, taking trades and used stuff is "cat in the bag" so you never know till you open it... 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Oh, where to begin...? 

Actually, I think this is a great idea, and something I have bandied about before.  I think if we had a rating system that everyone could use as a reference, it could help greatly, and perhaps help to solve some disputes.  We have a couple of regular sellers here that list items from their phones, and as a result, aren't able to provide pics.  These are good folks, and I would see no reason they should be penalized for not having pics, although I can understand why someone dealing with them for the first time may be apprehensive.  The Feedback Forum can offset that, but also being able to refer to an "Official Multitool.org Grading System" could help out even more.

When trading with Gadget Guy (and a few others- he's been mentioned, so I'll use him for example only) they consider the other member's happiness to be tantamount to a good trade, so they often toss in the odd extra and devalue the tool so that the recipient can't help but be happy with the product they receive.  You really can't fault them for mislabeling the tool since they are doing it with the best of intentions.  While they are very positive about it, it can be difficult for them to offer something for trade that may be a lower grade later on, simply because folks are expecting something near mint when they advertise something is in "rough" shape, and may be disappointed when something shows up in actual rough shape.  I don't know of any instances where this may have happened, but it is always a possibility that could be avoided by a grading system.  This is by no means a shot at Gadget Guy, or anyone else who tends to devalue their trades to ensure success.  It's a very nice thing for them to do, but I hate to see these guys get burned.

We experimented with a feedback system called Karma some time ago, and as far as I'm concerned, it was a complete and utter failure.  As with eBay feedback, and to a lesser extent our Feedback Forum (which I never liked, but put in at member request), folks were terribly upset about even one "smite" (negative) despite having hundreds of positive marks to their names.  Let's face it, you can't please everyone all of the time.  Even Tim, whom we all pretty well acknowledge as the greatest online retailer on the planet has managed to have bad feedback on eBay.  It happens, whether it's your fault or not.  The Karma system simply caused too much ill will around here, and some folks were terrified to give a negative strike against anyone in case that person gave a negative strike back, which is the fault with any feedback system.  And, since the Karma system was anonymous, folks got terrifically upset when they got a strike, and tried to deduce who gave it to them so they could retaliate.  Multitool.org is much too laid back to have that kind of strife.

EDCSource is here to stay.  I appreciate folks who are already using it, and I am open to any suggestions for addons that anyone may have.  There are a lot of different options right now that aren't activated to help streamline the process and get folks involved, but I'm happy to activate different components if that's what people want.  Unlike the forum software though, which is supported by literally hundreds of thousands of independent programmers, the software on EDCSource is commercial, and many addons cost money, so bear in mind we may not be willing to experiment as much with it since it cost me a pile of money in the first place, and is not seeing a lot of traffic yet.  You folks can help by listing some items, and/or spreading the word on Facebook, other forums, and anywhere else you may happen to travel online.  Helping EDCSource grow helps Multitool.org and some other cool upcoming projects I have back burnered because of funding issues.

While Multitool.org is adamant about staying hands off in trades (more on that in a minute) we are willing to mediate any issues between members.  Members will still have to solve the problem themselves, but we are very willing to provide some independent help to get you there.

Lawyers are the reason we don't get directly involved in any trades.  I don't have one, and can't afford one.  I would very much prefer to not be sued because of some problem involving trades, and while we may say we don't get involved in trade disputes, we prove it by not getting involved.  If we got involved in even one trade, it sets a precedence for responsibility (basically the legal equivalent to "you got involved in that one, why not this one?") and opens us for litigation.  Since Multitool.org is a sole proprietorship owned lock stock and barrel by me personally, I personally get sued, and I really have no interest in losing my house.  While this may sound kind of extreme, another forum I have been on for a while (and I'm sure you can guess which one) had some serious issues when a 15 year old member's parents discovered an extensive and scary collection of automatic knives in his room.  When they asked where he got them, he said he bought them online through a forum.  The parents immediately contacted the forum owner and proceeded to feed him a royal sized poo burger, and threatened to sue.  The only benefit I have in that kind of situation is that suing someone across a border into another country is a very difficult thing to do, so unless one of our Canadian members get a hankering to come after me, I'm reasonably safe.

So where does this all leave us?  With a great opportunity to level the playing field so everyone can get what they want.  So, the best way I can think of to proceed is that we set up about 5 "grades" then post a bunch of tool pics and have members vote on which "grade" they would personally list it, and from that we can surmise a reasonably effective method of grading tools for everyone's benefit.  I'll start taking pics of a number of different tools I have and get them posted for folks to vote on.  Even if we don't get anywhere with an official grading system, that much tool porn should be a lot of fun! 

Def

[Gareth]

When speaking about rules what I ment is general concesus about having pics in/with trade post...

My English is not as good as I would like it to be, so sometimes I use some phrases which can be misunderstud... And with this said I also agree that most "bad" tradings are result of misunderstand... Or as one of my favorite writters said "80% of problems comes out of misunderstanding..." 

Ofcourse it is on traders to freely choose in posting pics or not, and upon anyone who accept trades is would he ask for pics and detailed description or not...

As I have said, taking trades and used stuff is "cat in the bag" so you never know till you open it... 

Don't worry edcgear it was a perfectly reasonable post, I was just stating what I understood to be Grant's position.  And your English is a thousand times better than my Serbian (of which I speak not a word).  

[edcgear]

When speaking about rules what I ment is general concesus about having pics in/with trade post...

My English is not as good as I would like it to be, so sometimes I use some phrases which can be misunderstud... And with this said I also agree that most "bad" tradings are result of misunderstand... Or as one of my favorite writters said "80% of problems comes out of misunderstanding..." 

Ofcourse it is on traders to freely choose in posting pics or not, and upon anyone who accept trades is would he ask for pics and detailed description or not...

As I have said, taking trades and used stuff is "cat in the bag" so you never know till you open it... 

Don't worry edcgear it was a perfectly reasonable post, I was just stating what I understood to be Grant's position.  And your English is a thousand times better than my Serbian (of which I speak not a word).  

[nuphoria]

+1, you have superb English skills mate 


Def, I totally agree with you. MTO just isn't set up for something so rigid and it isn't what we're about either.

There will always be the odd problem with a sale and usually that can be resolved privately - which is exactly the point. If you choose to B/S/T here, it's your sole responsibility to deal with whatever outcome that has, not the forums.

A grading system would be good if developed carefully. Comics have a similar system that is widely recognised.
Perhaps we could use that model as a starting point?
http://comicbooks.about.com/od/buyingcomics/p/howtograde.htm

[DaveK]

Yup, agree (and expected) every word of that Def, and you know that I've tried (and utterly failed so far) to spread the word about EDCS and raise its profile a bit and will continue to do so.

My suggestion about the forum wasn't so much something that I particularly need to see myself, but I thought that it would be a continual reminder to those people that use the trade forums to buy and sell, that EDCS exists. If you've got links to click in the very same trade forums, it follows that more people will click through to EDCS. I also recall that you've tried something recently that as near as dammit worked!

[jzmtl]

Even Tim, whom we all pretty well acknowledge as the greatest online retailer on the planet has managed to have bad feedback on eBay. 

That reminds me of something. A seller I know got a neg feedback because the guy who bought a dollar worth of stuff with free shipping, expected it to be shipped out on the same day, via next day air, and got pissed when it wasn't in his mailbox two days after he bought it.

[nuphoria]

Can someone please post the code needed to add the EDCS mini banner with link?
(Benner has it on his)


I will try and get away with putting it on all my other forum sigs

[Benner]

If you quote this you hopefully will be good to go

[Grant Lamontagne]

Even Tim, whom we all pretty well acknowledge as the greatest online retailer on the planet has managed to have bad feedback on eBay. 

That reminds me of something. A seller I know got a neg feedback because the guy who bought a dollar worth of stuff with free shipping, expected it to be shipped out on the same day, via next day air, and got pissed when it wasn't in his mailbox two days after he bought it.

I have seen that happen before as well.  Like I said, there are some people out there that can't be pleased no matter how hard you try, so I never worry about a few bad things that some people say about you.  For others though, it's a significant problem, as many folks read WAY too much into it.

Def

[nuphoria]

If you quote this you hopefully will be good to go

Thank you my dear... I shall go try that now

[Styerman]

Kinda like the N.R.A. standards for used firearms ?  Not a bad idea , simple product , should be doable .

Chris

[sawman]

When you think about it these proposed rules kind of enforce themselves on Ebay for instance.  Ever try selling something on Ebay without a pic???  It doesnt matter how good the price is, if the buyer can't see it, good luck selling it.  I'm actually the worst person on here for pics as my camera is crappy and it's hard to capture details of item(s) but when I sell on Ebay, I have no choice but to keep snapping pics until I get some that are decent - the result reflects in how many bids and how much money I ultimately receive!