The world is changing, is it for the better?

[Mr. Whippy]

The reality is, up until very recently, most physicians carried very sharp pocket knives, designed to function as scalpels in a pinch.

Just food for thought.

Define "recently".  My father's in his early 60s, and I know a significant number of physicians (through him) that are also outdoorsmen that don't carry pocket knives either.  I've hiked with a number of them as well.

Well, I'm nearly 50 so your Dad is essentially a contemporary of mine.  The physicians practicing in the 1950's and 60's carried a scalpel of some type, often in a emergency kit. That was an era before disposable blades (and disposable IV bags).

My childhood is (IME) recently.

[Jmora]

there's a fundamental psychological principle here that explains this conflict. When someone has a traumatic experience, then any stimulus that reminds them of this traumatic event will set off the same trauma reaction. thus a woman who has been raped will not want any other man near her, even though very few men are actually rapists. In a hospital setting, someone who has experienced a knife fight will be freaked out by any blade. Of course, to be sensitive to this person, you would avoid showing any blades, as far as is possible.

The reverse side to this is that curing someone of their trauma means exposing them to the feared stimulus. A rape victim, with the structured support of her therapist, has to learn to be around men again, someone in a knife fight will have to get used to seeing knives around. I think people who consider themselves on the cutting edge of modern morality these days are a little too respectful of victim's sensitivities. I'm not attacking anyone here, its particular journalists and politicians taking this stand that annoy me.

Anyway, I can understand that a doctor treating a patient in a knife fight would keep his own knife out of sight, this is showing proper sensitivity to the traumatized patient. (I do this in my own work, where I have traumatized patients, I always keep my SAK out of sight). On the other hand, banishing all knives from public places to placate the potential sensitivities of victims is ultimately counterproductive. Its more about giving traumatized people the courage to come back into public spaces, which are inevitably dangerous, rather than sanitizing public spaces for them.

hope this makes sense (just finished the bottle of wine)

[Mr. Whippy]

Perfect sense.  Thank you. 

[jekostas]

The point I'm trying to make is that I find it odd that so many people equate having a pocket knife on one's person is somehow a sign of their masculinity or ability to be self-reliant.  The OP stated it, and it's been stated a number of times in a number of different ways in this thread.

Are we loosing our identity as men in this world?

People in general, view self reliance as outdated.

You are seeing the :ussification of the once proup/prepared male . We're just voices in the wilderness!

Don't get me wrong, I like pocket knifes, I like MTs (you know, otherwise I wouldn't be here).  I just don't understand the idea that they somehow are a "symbol" of manhood.

[Mr. Whippy]

Fair enough. 

I don't really equate it with manliness so much as I equate it with a level of self reliance and preparedness.

My wife and daughter have a mulitool/knife with them where it's allowed, and use them for minor repairs and chores.

Having to walk around looking for someone to help you open a package, or cut a loose string, remove a splinter, remove a tick, tighten a loose screw just strikes me as a form of childish helplessness.  Anybody and everybody should be able to do these minor tasks (barring a true handicap).

[Carlos]

Well, around here I would say the vast majority of people doesn't carry any kind of blades or tools.

In rural areas however there was the tradition / need to use some kind of pocket knife (folder). As most people have been swapping from the rural areas to urban places in the last decades, that need had been decreasing. Products are each time more and more "tool-free" with all sorts of easy openings, easy fasteners, easy somethings. Damn, there are already mini bottles of beer (20ml) with an easy opening!

[Jmora]

I get what you mean. I watched the movie 'Taxi Driver' again two nights ago, Robert De Niro playing a lonely disturbed outsider who finds solace in collecting all manner of firearms, and eventually using them against a bunch of gangsters. Powerful movie (one of the greatest films of all time I think), no matter how psychotic the character becomes, you empathize with him. I felt idiotic that my empathy with this character came in part from my SAK collecting. He has a gun for every eventuality, like me with my pocket knives. We both find some masculine solace from these things.

How do you avoid taking things too far? Just think practically: do I need a Spyderco Military to cut this apple for lunch at my workplace? No. I've often tried to slip a folder into my pocket on my way to work, but I always felt stupid, so I take my trusty SAK compact. We all feel this need for absoulute self-sufficiency, and it drives us to some of our sillier purchases. As long as we have knives or MTs suited for the job, then we don't need to apologize to anyone.

[sawman]

If I want to use a machete to peel my apple, then by golly that's the way it's going to be... 

[asupernothing]

If I want to use a machete to peel my apple, then by golly that's the way it's going to be... 

Easier said than done.

Pics to come...

[zatoichi]

I cannot say much about the world. All I can speak of is myself.

About me. Super low mechanical aptitude, but a can try if given enough time.

I remember taking apart and reassembling a 1911A1 pistol in the Army. It took me three  hours. But I did try and succeeded.

I have a few knives and tools that I carry. Better to be prepared.

[sawman]

OT:  I said some wacky things which I hope were taken as sarcasm.  Obviously I'm not encouraging anyone to go out and break any laws, but...  I really feel that there's been a bit too much negativity floating around (not just this thread) but several different threads where it's almost like watching the news.  First off, I like the variety of culture - the different countries, especially the UK folks - I've even been watching the BBC channel a bit lately as they have a flair /charm/ class not often found here in the states (IMO).  That said, I just can't fathom some of the laws the various countries around the world have in place regarding pointy things... 

I'm used to knives not being welcome in court houses, airports and after 911, certain amusement parks.  Aside from that, I have often carried a knife on many jobs, a switchblade in fact.  So when you tell me not even a slip joint is allowed, it throws me for a loop!  Anyhow, it would be cool if multitools were more the focus instead of what's illegal and where.  And as for people who don't understand the greatness of carrying a pointy thing, they're welcome not to join the forums and keep their gloom to themselves.  Is it just me or is it getting a bit depressing to read the forums lately 

[jekostas]

Having to walk around looking for someone to help you open a package, or cut a loose string, remove a splinter, remove a tick, tighten a loose screw just strikes me as a form of childish helplessness.  Anybody and everybody should be able to do these minor tasks (barring a true handicap).

Perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect here that should be mentioned.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.  Certainly other countries and cultures embrace the capability of the individual to some extent, but not nearly to the levels that it exists in the US.

The idea of asking for help doesn't strike me as childish or helpless, it strikes me as completely and utterly normal.

Perhaps the question then shouldn't be "The world is changing..." it should be "The US is changing...".

[Mr. Whippy]

Having to walk around looking for someone to help you open a package, or cut a loose string, remove a splinter, remove a tick, tighten a loose screw just strikes me as a form of childish helplessness.  Anybody and everybody should be able to do these minor tasks (barring a true handicap).

Perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect here that should be mentioned.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.  Certainly other countries and cultures embrace the capability of the individual to some extent, but not nearly to the levels that it exists in the US.

I think you may be generalizing Western Europe as if it's the entire world.  No one is saying "absolute self-reliance" rather, what I'm saying is, a person should be able to carry out certain basic skills.  Having to ask for help to cut twine, or asking for help because you have no way to open a bottle strikes me as a fairly high level of helplessness. 

No, not everyone needs to be a McGyver, but being stranded at the side of the road because you don't know how or have tools to change a flat tire on your bicycle, or how to adjust your derailleur (yes I've seen both), is IMO pathetic.

[jekostas]

Having to walk around looking for someone to help you open a package, or cut a loose string, remove a splinter, remove a tick, tighten a loose screw just strikes me as a form of childish helplessness.  Anybody and everybody should be able to do these minor tasks (barring a true handicap).

Perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect here that should be mentioned.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.  Certainly other countries and cultures embrace the capability of the individual to some extent, but not nearly to the levels that it exists in the US.

I think you may be generalizing Western Europe as if it's the entire world.  No one is saying "absolute self-reliance" rather, what I'm saying is, a person should be able to carry out certain basic skills.  Having to ask for help to cut twine, or asking for help because you have no way to open a bottle strikes me as a fairly high level of helplessness. 

No, not everyone needs to be a McGyver, but being stranded at the side of the road because you don't know how or have tools to change a flat tire on your bicycle, or how to adjust your derailleur (yes I've seen both), is IMO pathetic.

I'm not generalizing Western Europe at all, that's not my background.  How about Asian culture, then?

[Mr. Whippy]

Having to walk around looking for someone to help you open a package, or cut a loose string, remove a splinter, remove a tick, tighten a loose screw just strikes me as a form of childish helplessness.  Anybody and everybody should be able to do these minor tasks (barring a true handicap).

Perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect here that should be mentioned.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.  Certainly other countries and cultures embrace the capability of the individual to some extent, but not nearly to the levels that it exists in the US.

I think you may be generalizing Western Europe as if it's the entire world.  No one is saying "absolute self-reliance" rather, what I'm saying is, a person should be able to carry out certain basic skills.  Having to ask for help to cut twine, or asking for help because you have no way to open a bottle strikes me as a fairly high level of helplessness. 

No, not everyone needs to be a McGyver, but being stranded at the side of the road because you don't know how or have tools to change a flat tire on your bicycle, or how to adjust your derailleur (yes I've seen both), is IMO pathetic.

I'm not generalizing Western Europe at all, that's not my background.  How about Asian culture, then?

Interesting.  My Vietnamese sister in law is more fiercely independent than I am.  Same is true for Japanese surgeon I work with. I assumed it was cultural. Perhaps not.

[PCS]

I'm not generalizing Western Europe at all, that's not my background.  How about Asian culture, then?

I would actually like to bring this back to the west: specifically the UK and Canada.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.

I'm no expert, but I believe the philosophical underpinnings of "rugged individualism" are European, usually British, and often Scottish. If memory serves me correctly, the Scots were particularly big on it.

As are many Albertans. And the last time I checked, Alberta was in Canada.

[jekostas]

I'm not generalizing Western Europe at all, that's not my background.  How about Asian culture, then?

I would actually like to bring this back to the west: specifically the UK and Canada.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.

I'm no expert, but I believe the philosophical underpinnings of "rugged individualism" are European, usually British, and often Scottish. If memory serves me correctly, the Scots were particularly big on it.

As are many Albertans. And the last time I checked, Alberta was in Canada.

The philosophical underpinnings of "rugged individualism" are based on American pioneers.  The term was invented in 1893, to describe the cultural shift that occurred as pioneers headed west and settled in sparsely populated areas.  The term was made popular by Herbert Hoover, who described it as "in opposition" to the European system of state soSmurfpillsm.

[PCS]

You might want to check out John Stuart Mill (the "tyranny of the majority" guy) and Thomas Carlyle.

And again, these concepts were very familiar to many Albertan pioneers and they affect Albertan politics to this day.

[Mr. Whippy]

I'm not generalizing Western Europe at all, that's not my background.  How about Asian culture, then?

I would actually like to bring this back to the west: specifically the UK and Canada.

This ideal of "rugged individualism", or absolute self-reliance does not exist as a cultural phenomenon outside of the United States.

I'm no expert, but I believe the philosophical underpinnings of "rugged individualism" are European, usually British, and often Scottish. If memory serves me correctly, the Scots were particularly big on it.

As are many Albertans. And the last time I checked, Alberta was in Canada.

Very interesting.  I've heard similar discussion regarding the origins of the independence shown by the people of Appalachia.  Stern Scottish independence, leery of government interference.

[CQC-7]

The people of Appalachia are very independent.  I would know I've lived there my whole life.  We are not all that bad.  However, most of us dislike what the government does very much.  Carrying knives for most of us is part of our culture.  Most of us are outdoorsmen.  Also, our jobs are such that we work long and hard often outside or underground where self reliance and a blade are two things one must possess.  I might use my knife to slice an apple or my sandwich and later use it to open my mail and remove a splinter.  If youve had ever had a splinter all day, it will drive you nuts.  Now imagine not haveing the means to get it out and leaving work is not an option.        

[HBlaine]

This got me to thinking about a teenage boy I ran into over the summer back home in WV.  A cousin and I were wheeling/dealing over cutting hay on the old family farm, and he had brought brought his nephew along while he came out to walk to fields, etc.  The boy's family had moved to somewhere around Baltimore when he was quite young, and he had only just really rediscovered that his uncle lived "in the country", and it was kind of cool to go there and help the uncle do all these cool, "farmy" things, like ride tractors, mow hay, etc.  He was all gung-ho and trying to talk his uncle into letting him drive the tractor and load the hay rolls and bulldoze rocks, etc.  My cousin just patiently nodded, smiled, and kept repeating, "We'll see..."

They'd apparently made a run past the local Wal-Mart, as someone had bought the boy a Gerber Paraframe, which he had proudly clipped in his pocket.  While I and my cousin and his Dad were standing around reminiscing about family matters, the boy kept taking the knife out and looking it over, working the blade, and generally treating it like some sort of talisman.  He was obviously proud of it.  Guess he saw it as sort of a mark of fitting in.  He was now a country kid, 'cause he had a knife.  I had to get a chuckle out of that.   

I really felt like putting the kid to work right then and there.  Not all the younger generation is lost with iPods and texting...  There's a few still out there, who actually want to get their hands dirty...

[Mr. Whippy]

This got me to thinking about a teenage boy I ran into over the summer back home in WV.  A cousin and I were wheeling/dealing over cutting hay on the old family farm, and he had brought brought his nephew along while he came out to walk to fields, etc.  The boy's family had moved to somewhere around Baltimore when he was quite young, and he had only just really rediscovered that his uncle lived "in the country", and it was kind of cool to go there and help the uncle do all these cool, "farmy" things, like ride tractors, mow hay, etc.  He was all gung-ho and trying to talk his uncle into letting him drive the tractor and load the hay rolls and bulldoze rocks, etc.  My cousin just patiently nodded, smiled, and kept repeating, "We'll see..."

They'd apparently made a run past the local Wal-Mart, as someone had bought the boy a Gerber Paraframe, which he had proudly clipped in his pocket.  While I and my cousin and his Dad were standing around reminiscing about family matters, the boy kept taking the knife out and looking it over, working the blade, and generally treating it like some sort of talisman.  He was obviously proud of it.  Guess he saw it as sort of a mark of fitting in.  He was now a country kid, 'cause he had a knife.  I had to get a chuckle out of that.   

I really felt like putting the kid to work right then and there.  Not all the younger generation is lost with iPods and texting...  There's a few still out there, who actually want to get their hands dirty...

I say good for him!  I think there are a lot of kids who really enjoy going out and physically working hard.  For many of them, there is no access to these kinds of experiences.  I suspect a lot of them end up awesome skiiers, snowboarders and BMX riders.

[ryan1835]

i have a manual job and im pleased id get bored sitting still all day

[HBlaine]

I kind of have to chuckle every time I remember being out there when that boy kept playing with the Paraframe.  I usually carried a mix of knives with me when I was working at cleaning up around the farm, and I do remember that I had toted a black Kershaw Leek out with me, which I basically was using as a glorified box-cutter.  The show-off in me wanted to flip out the Leek, fire the assisted opener, and pull one of those, "Hey, kid, wanna see a real knife?" numbers.  But even I'm not that big a jerk.  He was so proud of his Gerber, I wasn't about to do it.  (And, hey, I happen to like my Paraframes, too.    )

[CQC-7]

Im a perfect example that kids that were exposed to outdoor work tend to like different sports.  I used to split wood, cut grass, taking care of gardening, all the normal stuff that goes along with living in the country.  I grew attached to different sports than my younger brother who did not do any such chores.  We were both athletic, me a cyclist, archery competitor, golfer, he was a baseball/basketball player. 

[Silentsniper441]

My dad, both grandfathers and i all carry leathermans/saks.  my mom used to carry one be she cut herself with and now wont.  two of my freinds have pocket knives but only one carries it.

[asupernothing]

carries it.

You mean as in singular knife?
That's just not right, the solution is more knives. (and cowbell)