Skeleton tool: original or fake?

[jalbam]

Hello,

I didn't know where to place this thread so if there is a better forum for it please feel free to move it there.

Is there any way to test whether my skeleton is the original one from TAD or a knock off? Mine seems to be the V1, the old one, with rounded eyes (the new and currently one has different eyes shape).

Here you can see the selling thread with some pictures: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,27343

When I bought it, from a Chinese "friend", it cost me about 80 to 85 euros (112 to 120 USD roughly) including shipping to Spain. The package came from Taiwan or Hong Kong, I don't remember quite well. There was not any information about TAD Gear brand name or others in the package. I didn't even know about this brand until I got some comments from this forum and others. I will ask her about all of this but I am afraid I am not trusting her too much from now on.

I am wondering if there is a way to know whether is original or not testing material as for instance weighting the piece, using magnets… but always simple tests that I can do by myself and without breaking the piece.

It should be made of titanium as I can read on original web, but mine is attracted with strong magnets when I put them together. I can't see any flaw in design touching it or any difference with original from pictures of the web, but I don't have an original one on my hands to compare them.

I don't want to send it to TAD Gear company because I would lose more time and money. I don't want to buy an original one either. I just want to know if I was ripped-off and also add the information to my thread where I am trying to sell it to let people know what I am actually selling.

When a person on the forum became interested in it, I was asked if it was original one or not. I didn't know there were any fakes and I wanted to know how to test mine so I googled it and I found out it should be made in USA as far as I know, right? But mine coming from TW or HK makes me wonder. Furthermore, I tried testing with magnets and maybe I have stainless steel version although I am not sure at all.

Is there anyone having or who had original and a fake one at same time? How much did they cost? How can you know which is the real one?

I am sorry about my English. I hope my message can be understandable enough If there is any doubt please just ask me. Thank you very much in advance!

[Mr. Whippy]

Titanium should be completely NON-magnetic.   That's why they use titanium tools in medical MRI machines.

[jzmtl]

Looks identical to what I can find, but as you said it's magnetic so...

Maybe just email TAD and see what they say, maybe they had a steel version?

[jalbam]

Thank you very much for your help. My skeleton sticks to magnets (very strong ones, rare earth magnets from DealExtreme) but not as strong as other stainless steel things, just a little. It's slightly magnet so skeleton can hold the weight of some little magnets but magnets can't hold skeleton weight. I am even doubting is steel What material could it be? Maybe I will have to contact TAD.

[Mr. Whippy]

Different stainless steels will vary in magnetism.

Some will be nearly non-magnetic, others will behave like carbon steel. My guess is, your skeleton tool is made of stainless steel of some sort.

[jalbam]

Thanks! Is not there any kind of titanium alloy which could be magnetic?

[Mr. Whippy]

None that I know of.  It's one of the desirable properties of Titanium

[jalbam]

Thanks! I finally wrote this email to TAD and when I get an answer I will let you know:

Hello,

Some months ago I bought a skeleton tool without knowing anything about TAD. It has rounded eyes (I think you call it V1) not as the new ones on your web site (I think you call it V2). It cost me around 80 or 85 euro, I can't remember, including shipping cost to Spain.

I didn't find any use for it so finally I decided to sell it when I was asked if it was real or not. Then searching on Google I found that skeleton should be made in the USA and it should be made of titanium alloy. But mine is slightly magnetic (very little) and I bought it from China. Mine didn't come with any kind of documentation or package with TAD name but maybe that was to decrease shipping cost.

My question is: how can I be sure my piece is real or not? Is the real one also slightly magnetic (very little)?

I have attached some pics I took to try to sell my skeleton before I knew it could be a fake one. Maybe it can help you to know if it's real or not.

Thank you very much in advance.

Greetings,
 Joan.

[jalbam]

Hello again,

Finally TAD answered my question:

Update for Case #5377 - "skeleton tool doubt (fake or real)"

Thank you for your interest in Triple Aught Design. We work hard to provide our customers with the highest quality apparel and accessories and oversee our design and manufacturing processes to ensure only the best products are made available to you. We are aware of the increasing amount of counterfeit Triple Aught Design items being sold, and efforts are being made to discourage and prevent this type of activity from occurring.

We are unable to verify the authenticity of items by photo. Items can be submitted to us by mail for verification as long as they are accompanied by a valid Triple Aught Design or TAD Gear invoice. We would like to emphasize the best way to guarantee the authenticity of any item is to make your purchase directly from Triple Aught Design or our authorized dealers.

Our Skeleton Key is made of titanium, which is a magnetic material.

Please contact customer support at support@tripleaughtdesign.com if you have any questions or concerns. You can also reach us by phone toll-free at 1-866-613-1386 or 1-415-318-8252 (international rates may apply) during normal business hours.

Sincerely,

Stacy Look
Customer Support

Even TAD say their skeleton tool is magnetic, as mine, and they can't tell any difference between original and mine from the photos. So I am still not sure if it's real item or not. I am not willing to spend more money and time sending my item to them (and I don't have any invoice as they require). Personally, I don't mind too much since functionality for me is the same being original or not. I am not using it. But for selling it's important to let people know the truth.

[Mr. Whippy]

From Wikipedia:

A metallic element, titanium is recognized for its high strength-to-weight ratio.[7] It is a strong metal with low density that is quite ductile (especially in an oxygen-free environment),[2] lustrous, and metallic-white in color.[9] The relatively high melting point (more than 1,650 °C or 3,000 °F) makes it useful as a refractory metal. It is paramagnetic and has fairly low electrical and thermal conductivity.[2]

Paramagnetism is a form of magnetism that occurs only in the presence of an externally applied magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have a relative magnetic permeability greater or equal to unity, i.e. a positive magnetic susceptibility, and hence are attracted to magnetic fields. The magnetic moment induced by the applied field is linear in the field strength and rather weak. It typically requires a sensitive analytical balance to detect the effect and modern measurements on paramagnetic materials are often conducted with a SQUID magnetometer.

I would still be fairly skeptical.

[jalbam]

It seems that some titanium alloys have very slightly magnetic properties as mine and real skeleton have. I wrote to TAD again asking about how much the piece weights. They replied me:

Case Update Notification   
                           
Update for Case #5377 - "skeleton tool doubt (fake or real)"               
Hello,

We have the weight of the skeleton key listed at approximatively 2 onces. Thank you
for your inquire.

Armando
Triple Aught Design,
Customer Support 

I have a little scale (0.1g precision, 200g maximum) at home but it doesn't work very well because it will always tell you less weight. The original skeleton tool should weight 2 oz (about 56 grams approximately) and, according to my calculations, my scale would say about 45 grams or so. When I weighted it my scale said about 32 grams (about 1.12 oz), that sourprised me since I expected more weight even in my scale, never less. But I can't be sure if it's just the scale or the piece (probably both) so all this data about weight is pretty useless.

Enigma solved: Chinese replied me, she said it's very likely a fake but it's a very good one "AAAAA" quality. I agree with that, I also think it's a replica but very close to real one. She also offers me the same piece for much cheaper price (112 to 120 USD before, 35 USD now) but I don't need the same thing again and I am angry to see they fooled me first time with that expensive price.

So be careful to all of you who want to buy that kind of one piece tools, be aware that Chinese are very likely producing knock-offs of these skeletons right now and they are not easy to detect even for TAD. I think it's not a bad deal if you don't mind material too much (for its weight I think it's different material than the real one but I can't be sure with my scale) and you get it for a good price. What I paid for it it's too expensive for a fake one in my opinion. If I could have bought it for those 35 USD the first time I wouldn't be so angry.

Now I am going to update my page where I was selling my skeleton with this new information. I wish they made their own designs instead of copying other's since they seem to have the capacity and they could make very nice and original works (and I wouldn't have any problems selling it!).

[jalbam]

Oh I just wanted to say that 112-120 USD includes shipping to Spain but 35 USD does not (about 45 USD including shipping). Anyway it's too much difference from the first price to the new one!

[jalbam]

I have contacted her, she wanted me to buy other stuff to include the pieces for free in the package but I didn't want to order anything more. We argued for a while and I finally I can get two pieces for free! She said that can send them to the address I want, so if anyone of you want one or two pieces, I can tell her to send to your address directly. Then I can save money avoiding the shipping cost from Spain to abroad. I will ask for 30 USD per piece, is it ok?

[jalbam]

She have just told me that she is willing to send them just in one package, one shipment, so I sell two skeletons for 60 USD.