Swiss Bianco 1961-2011 Anniversary Soldier

[nsa-x-file]

Let's remember here that Roger is not a Swiss Army Knife enthusiast or collector.  He's a Swiss blacksmith and custom knifemaker, and because he's Swiss he has the opportunity to get special models made- models he makes to pay the bills while he works on and tries to sell his own knives to various manufacturers.  Because he's not "into" SAKs as seriously as many of the rest of us, he misses some of these kinds of subtleties without realizing it.

It's just an income source with Roger, and he gets made what he hopes will sell.  You can't fault him for not knowing the product lines as well as those of us who probably talk about knives and multis in our sleep.  I's the difference between a Ford salesman and a member of the Mustang Collector's Club- which one is likely to know more about the products?

Def

Well said. 
I'm just happy Roger and a few others are making the effort to create new swiss knives.
If it were not for these people there would not be any alox special runs or any other colours to choose from.
That's why I will always continue to support these knifemakers in the future.

At the end of the day no one is forcing people to buy them.

[North Man]

Let's remember here that Roger is not a Swiss Army Knife enthusiast or collector.  He's a Swiss blacksmith and custom knifemaker, and because he's Swiss he has the opportunity to get special models made- models he makes to pay the bills while he works on and tries to sell his own knives to various manufacturers.  Because he's not "into" SAKs as seriously as many of the rest of us, he misses some of these kinds of subtleties without realizing it.

It's just an income source with Roger, and he gets made what he hopes will sell.  You can't fault him for not knowing the product lines as well as those of us who probably talk about knives and multis in our sleep.  I's the difference between a Ford salesman and a member of the Mustang Collector's Club- which one is likely to know more about the products?

Def

Let Roger into this forum again so he can defend himself, if this is going on then i demand this.

[Grant Lamontagne]

No.

I have no desire to get into bashing Roger here, and that post was not made to take a shot at him.  It is the truth, and something he has said himself.

And, since I did not ban him, if I were to reinstate him then I would be overruling the optinions of the moderators here, and that I will not do.

Def

[North Man]

I do not want to know what has been between the two of you, i have no information.
It is however not nice to jump into topics so, that is all.
I am glad that Victorinox is a family business, i am 100% sure we will never know their most secret stuff or them telling about employees or people working for them, same with Wenger.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have no desire to get into the problems between myself and Roger.  I worded that post very carefully so that no one would take it as insulting.  I have known Roger for many years, and these are things he has told me himself.

Roger is first and formost a custom knifemaker, and always will be.  It's what he does, and Swiss Army Knives are simply a way for him to keep doing that as the custom knife business is a very hard one to be successful at. 

And, knowing Roger as I do, if he was let back in here, he would take offense to posts like this one and the one above, he would say something, I would say something and sooner or later all of the things I have tried to keep to myself over the past few years would come out, and that wouldn't benefit either of us.  Personally, I prefer to just let it go, but that doesn't mean I won't speak my mind on my own forum.

I would appreciate in the future if folks would realize that I take great care when discussing Roger so as not to cause incidents.  I know there are many fans of his work, both independant and with Victorinox, and I have no desire to see Roger fail, nor do I have any interest in attacking him. 

Def

[North Man]

I respect that words has been sad from him that is offending, i do not know or will never ask, i have not taken any offense just been interrupting..
Wish all a good day

[ufox9al]

Let Roger into this forum again so he can defend himself, if this is going on then i demand this.

While I have not discussed this specific thread with Roger, based on prior conversations with him, he will not be interested in re-joining the forum where a Moderator makes a statement like:

Doesn't really sound like +B exactly knows what he's doing does it..? 

which is folowed by the forum Owner's comment about why he believes the above statement to be true.

While I am not at all interested in arguing with member's general opinions about Roger or his work, I would like to offer some facts about the 50-year alox Soldier commemorative run, for the benefit of those who are interested in them.

The idea of a SAK commemorating the 50-year anniversary of alox Soldier has been in the works since before the alox model was dicontinued in 2008. The commemorative model was, of course, expected to have military shiled scales and "11" tang stamp, and, possibly, all-over red anodizing. Unfortunately, by the time 2011 rolled in, the military shild scales were out of production, and the blades are no longer stamped with the issue year. Rather than to give up on celebrating the anniversary of a SAK that has been issued for almost 50 years, the decision was made to build a Soldier configuration with the Victorinox scales. The resulting SAK has a unique configuration, and whether you call it a "Pioneer minus keyring" or a "Soldier with civilian scales and no year stamp" is pretty much irrelevant. It is not a "replica 1961 Soldier" (which would have to have a small plain silver cross, all over red scales, and WK stamp), but rather a tribute to the iconic SAK, which is, sadly, no longer available.


 

[Grant Lamontagne]

So then people shouldn't be allowed to have their own opinions then?  Especially moderators?

Nice try Alexei, but if someone has something to say, this is one forum that will allow them to say it.  I won't even point out how hypocritical your statement is either. 

Def

[frugalscotty]

While I am not at all interested in arguing with member's general opinions about Roger or his work, I would like to offer some facts about the 50-year alox Soldier commemorative run, for the benefit of those who are interested in them.

The idea of a SAK commemorating the 50-year anniversary of alox Soldier has been in the works since before the alox model was dicontinued in 2008. The commemorative model was, of course, expected to have military shiled scales and "11" tang stamp, and, possibly, all-over red anodizing. Unfortunately, by the time 2011 rolled in, the military shild scales were out of production, and the blades are no longer stamped with the issue year. Rather than to give up on celebrating the anniversary of a SAK that has been issued for almost 50 years, the decision was made to build a Soldier configuration with the Victorinox scales. The resulting SAK has a unique configuration, and whether you call it a "Pioneer minus keyring" or a "Soldier with civilian scales and no year stamp" is pretty much irrelevant. It is not a "replica 1961 Soldier" (which would have to have a small plain silver cross, all over red scales, and WK stamp), but rather a tribute to the iconic SAK, which is, sadly, no longer available.

Sorry, not buying it. While I have never purchased any +B products, I love the fact he is able to bring unique SAKs to market. But it seems this commemorative model is completely ill conceived. In my opinion, the lack of a date stamp on the blade would have been forgivable since none have been stamped since 2008. However, Wenger was selling their SI through 2010 and it shouldn't have been a problem to stamp out a few hundred scales with the correct shield. If this was indeed in planning since "before 2008" it was rather bad planning.

I see this as nothing more than a scheme to sell half a$$ commemorative models to hobbiests with money burning a hole in their wallet.

Do it right or don't do it at all! 

[AHB]

I'm not collecting SAKs and I haven't had any dealings with +B. My comment are solely based upon this thread and reading back on the various replies about this particular run, I don't think the question is out of line really..

[ICanFixThat]

Oops... of the track?  I think we can pull it back on.... This does not need to get personal.

I think the disscussion of this series is good and needed because of some of the questions raised.  It lets Victorinox and +B better understand their customers and what they expect from them.  We've discussed similar things such as the Military Collection, Heritage Knife, the "1 of 5000 ... USA" Soldiers... etc.  We have a vested interest in mantaining the integrity of the brand and the legacy of the Swiss Soldiers' knife. 

We don't need to try to spin this, it is what it is... yes a Classic could have been issued to commemorate the event, we would judge it based on it's own merits.  However we're commenting on this series and how it was presented, not how it could have been presented or how it can be interpreted to be now after the fact.  Before this thread I made very similar comments in another thread when there was an earlier announcement of this forth coming series, it would have been prudent for some to consider these points even at that time time; if they truly had not considered them to date (which would be sad, and hard to believe).  Sometimes you don't just do what you can, you have to do what's right even if that means doing nothing.  The thinking on this was obviously not focused on what it should have been, that is clear from the minor details of the text for the etching on the blade to the execution of the structural components.  I feel some great knives were wasted as they were positioned into an inappropriate role; I feel we lost twice.

I keep thinking I don't need to write more, but I hope as a community we can have discussions a little deeper than the latest anodizing color (those shades of gold do look great through).  Everyone here loves SAKs; I and many others are also are interested in the history of the companies and maybe even other more philosophical aspects related to the knives, their use, and having fun with them.  I just love having a reason to learn about Switzerland as well.

To end on a really good note... I got a package from Switzerland today....         

[Mr. Whippy]

Sometimes you don't just do what you can, you have to do what's right even if that means doing nothing.  The thinking on this was obviously not focused on what it should have been, that is clear from the minor details of the text for the etching on the blade to the execution of the structural components.  I feel some great knives were wasted as they were positioned into an inappropriate role; I feel we lost twice.

Interesting. I hadn't really looked at the etching before this post (mostly because I wasn't interested in the knife due to the scale issue).

Anniversary Alox Soldier sak?

Someone should have thought a LOT harder about this.

50th Anniversary Soldier

or

50th Anniversary 1/xxx

But to use Alox and sak in the etching? That would be like putting

Anniversary sak BFD!

JMO

[pthycrpg]

Have any members ever seen a Red Alox 1961 Wenger Soldiers knife?  I know I would consider saving my allowance to buy a reproduction knife that was a direct copy of that knife. If both Wenger and Victorinox can produce a 1891 "The original replica of the first-ever soldier's knife that was supplied to the Swiss army. It is the showpiece of our anniversary collection." Then were is our 1961 replica?? If they can stand in the streets of Syria and demand Democracy, they we can take a stand and demand a exact replica of a 1961 Soldiers' knife. 

[ICanFixThat]

Have any members ever seen a Red Alox 1961 Wenger Soldiers knife?  ....

It's my current understanding that there is no 1961 Alox Soldier knife from Wenger or Victorinox.  While there were transitioning Wenger supplied knives in 1961, but they were not the Alox Soldier. 

[Cyclone82]

Why does everyone and every website say '1961 design' Shouldnt it be 1962 then? Surely everone after all these years cant be wrong? Theres a good article on soldier years on sosak ive seen. I will have to go check up what it says there but i was sure either vic or wenger made a alox soldier in 61.

[ICanFixThat]

Have any members ever seen a Red Alox 1961 Wenger Soldiers knife?  ....

It's my current understanding that there is no 1961 Alox Soldier knife from Wenger or Victorinox.  While there were transitioning Wenger supplied knives in 1961, but they were not the Alox Soldier.

Why does everyone and every website say '1961 design' Shouldnt it be 1962 then? Surely everone after all these years cant be wrong? Theres a good article on soldier years on sosak ive seen. I will have to go check up what it says there but i was sure either vic or wenger made a alox soldier in 61.

Hmmm maybe because they finished the design and agreed on the specifications in 1961?

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to give a good definitive answer.  I think the answer is already in a thread on this forum, in a response from Victorinox to North Man.

I'm checking with another Soldier expert, and if duder happens by I'm sure he will know the definitive answer to this as well.

[gustophersmob]

Have any members ever seen a Red Alox 1961 Wenger Soldiers knife?  ....

It's my current understanding that there is no 1961 Alox Soldier knife from Wenger or Victorinox.  While there were transitioning Wenger supplied knives in 1961, but they were not the Alox Soldier.

Why does everyone and every website say '1961 design' Shouldnt it be 1962 then? Surely everone after all these years cant be wrong? Theres a good article on soldier years on sosak ive seen. I will have to go check up what it says there but i was sure either vic or wenger made a alox soldier in 61.

Hmmm maybe because they finished the design and agreed on the specifications in 1961?

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to give a good definitive answer.  I think the answer is already in a thread on this forum, in a response from Victorinox to North Man.

I'm checking with another Soldier expert, and if duder happens by I'm sure he will know the definitive answer to this as well.

This SOSAK article seems to indicate Wenger made the alox soldier in 61, but the author doesn't have one. 

http://www.sosakonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=592&Itemid=35

[duder]

From what I know Victorinox made and delivered the first alox soldiers in 1962 (info from Victorinox). I guess ICFT is right, the knife was probably designed in 1961 (or so) and was therefore called model 61.
I have never seen a 61 or 62 Wenger, and from what I know Wenger started in 1963 but I have no definitive info from Wenger themselves. So far I have only seen 63, 64 and 65 red Wenger soldiers.

[ICanFixThat]

Just to make it even more interesting... while it's definitively true that Victorinox did not deliver any knives to the Swiss Army in 1961... it appears there are at least a few Elsener Red Alox handled knives with a 61 tang. I guess we'll have to consider them the Soldier to be.

Don't you just love digging up old stuff.  I'll also say it looks like there is a lot of other interesting happenings between 57-62.

I guess we'll be keeping our eyes open.

[ICanFixThat]

Just to make it even more interesting... while it's definitively true that Victorinox did not deliver any knives to the Swiss Army in 1961... it appears there are at least a few Elsener Red Alox handled knives with a 61 tang. I guess we'll have to consider them the Soldier to be.

Don't you just love digging up old stuff.  I'll also say it looks like there is a lot of other interesting happenings between 57-62.

I guess we'll be keeping our eyes open.

Sorry spoke too soon and I was sent a retraction on the existence of the 61 stamped Elsener.

[nsa-x-file]

Just to make it even more interesting... while it's definitively true that Victorinox did not deliver any knives to the Swiss Army in 1961... it appears there are at least a few Elsener Red Alox handled knives with a 61 tang. I guess we'll have to consider them the Soldier to be.

Don't you just love digging up old stuff.  I'll also say it looks like there is a lot of other interesting happenings between 57-62.

I guess we'll be keeping our eyes open.

Sorry spoke too soon and I was sent a retraction on the existence of the 61 stamped Elsener.

That's a shame. 
There was me hoping I could find one to go with my 62, 63, 64, 65 and 66 Red Alox Soldiers.