84mm SAK love

[strmliner]

I do think this Elinox Gourmet will be my new signature for a while

Nice!   

[El Corkscrew]

Salesman and Huntsman small otw

[Zed]

Salesman and Huntsman small otw

I think the salesman would be my perfect daily edc  it's like a mini version of my super tinker other than the file on the Phillips 

[El Corkscrew]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

[Mechanickal]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

Got an Evogrip 18 last saturday which has alot of tools in common with your Golferjack here. Even the size is quite close.

Edit: not that much in common... just scissors and saw in a -91mm platform...

[El Corkscrew]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

Got an Evogrip 18 last saturday which has alot of tools in common with your Golferjack here. Even the size is quite close.

Edit: not that much in common... just scissors and saw in a -91mm platform...

has to be something with the size. Even when there was the Wenger version of the Waiter with Vic tools they still used the 84mm blade and combo tool.

[MacGyver]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I somehow find it hard to believe Vic's reason, today, for not bringing back the 84mm scissors to be the broken machine excuse...  If every part is made from the specific stamping mold and if the machines are multitasking (one machine makes different tools) it would just be tha case to create a new stamping mold for the scissors and corresponding back spring... 

I really thing that the case here is: they just don't care, or want to bother with it    Since they have the 85mm series with scissors, i really don't think they will ever bring back the 84mm versions.

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxes at ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just my honest opinion these days

[Mechanickal]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I somehow find it hard to believe Vic's reason, today, for not bringing back the 84mm scissors to be the broken machine excuse...  If every part is made from the specific stamping mold and if the machines are multitasking (one machine makes different tools) it would just be tha case to create a new stamping mold for the scissors and corresponding back spring... 

I really thing that the case here is: they just don't care, or want to bother with it    Since they have the 85mm series with scissors, i really don't think they will ever bring back the 84mm versions.

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxes at ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just my honest opinion these days

Don't feel sorry.
I think lot's of people think the same way.

[El Corkscrew]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!


85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxesat ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Don't want to hate, and I know a LOT of people like these but I feel the same way.  It's gotta be a helluva a lot cheaper to slap different scales on there than make/reproduce older modes.

[MacGyver]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!


85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxesat ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Don't want to hate, and I know a LOT of people like these but I feel the same way.  It's gotta be a helluva a lot cheaper to slap different scales on there than make/reproduce older modes.

Totally agree, why should they invest more money in making another 84mm scissors and spring stamping mold, or even try and adapt 85mm scissors to the 84mm line to sell at standard prices when they can spend a hell of lot less on making fancy scales and cool boxes for standard existing models, slap them on, and sell them for premium prices...?

Financially for a corporation, it makes perfect sense. Utility wise for a user (like me) it makes none 

[Fast Bill]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

[El Corkscrew]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

[Fast Bill]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

[NorCalJim]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

 

Love the green Cadet! The Pioneer X was supposed to be my one and only Alox model but I came down with Alox fever.

I didn't warm to the Cadet right away but after purchasing a silver model, it grew on me.  I have all available colors now including orchid.



Jim

[El Corkscrew]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

Danish run cadet?

[El Corkscrew]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

 

Love the green Cadet! The Pioneer X was supposed to be my one and only Alox model but I came down with Alox fever.

I didn't warm to the Cadet right away but after purchasing a silver model, it grew on me.  I have all available colors now including orchid.



Jim

   Kind of the same story with me but I have been able to show some self control and have limited myself to a silver one.  Soldiers on the other hand... Let's just say I have more than a couple decades' worth.

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I somehow find it hard to believe Vic's reason, today, for not bringing back the 84mm scissors to be the broken machine excuse...  If every part is made from the specific stamping mold and if the machines are multitasking (one machine makes different tools) it would just be tha case to create a new stamping mold for the scissors and corresponding back spring... 

I really thing that the case here is: they just don't care, or want to bother with it    Since they have the 85mm series with scissors, i really don't think they will ever bring back the 84mm versions.

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxes at ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just my honest opinion these days

If the sales justified it before the tools crapped out, they would have replaced them. To resurrect them, they would have to replace the stamps and dies for the fixed scissor arm, movable arm, backspring, leaf spring, plus jigs and fixtures for drilling the holes, peening the scissor pivot etc etc etc. That level of investment needs the confidence that the sales demand will be there for several tens of thousands of units. A few nostalgic members of an internet forum aren't going to tip the balance  There's one way to get the scissors back, and that's to place an order for 50,000 units. 

Aside from this, their cost management approach seems very much to be minimising inventory these days. An example of this would be the Alox Solo blade. They now use a standard Pioneer blade, which sits off center in the handles due to the asymmetrical grind (NOT crinking). The Alox Solo stamps/dies/coining tools obviously crapped out at some point, and the sales of the Solo's aren't worth reinvesting in dedicated tooling - or even running a few coils of steel through the machine while the tooling is set up, and putting a decades blade blanks into stock for a relatively slow moving item. Even if they had the tooling in good condition, it probably wouldn't be worth the down time of switching the tooling over just to run off 500 knife blanks. The down time / change over time may well cost more than the stamping/coining time, thus doubling (or more) the production cost in terms of rate/hour and appropriation of overheads.

Due to the mass production and efficiency models they operate on, and which keep their knives so affordable, any new development/releases have got to be costed out in terms of many tens of thousands of units. If they don't think they are going to sell them in those quantities, they aren't going to make them - simple as that. Sorry guys. Wenger tried doing smaller batch runs of speSmurfpillst items, but we all know how that story ended - and so do the Elsener family 

Just my personal perspective 

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I somehow find it hard to believe Vic's reason, today, for not bringing back the 84mm scissors to be the broken machine excuse...  If every part is made from the specific stamping mold and if the machines are multitasking (one machine makes different tools) it would just be tha case to create a new stamping mold for the scissors and corresponding back spring... 

I really thing that the case here is: they just don't care, or want to bother with it    Since they have the 85mm series with scissors, i really don't think they will ever bring back the 84mm versions.

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxes at ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just my honest opinion these days

If the sales justified it before the tools crapped out, they would have replaced them. To resurrect them, they would have to replace the stamps and dies for the fixed scissor arm, movable arm, backspring, leaf spring, plus jigs and fixtures for drilling the holes, peening the scissor pivot etc etc etc. That level of investment needs the confidence that the sales demand will be there for several tens of thousands of units. A few nostalgic members of an internet forum aren't going to tip the balance  There's one way to get the scissors back, and that's to place an order for 50,000 units. 

Aside from this, their cost management approach seems very much to be minimising inventory these days. An example of this would be the Alox Solo blade. They now use a standard Pioneer blade, which sits off center in the handles due to the asymmetrical grind (NOT crinking). The Alox Solo stamps/dies/coining tools obviously crapped out at some point, and the sales of the Solo's aren't worth reinvesting in dedicated tooling - or even running a few coils of steel through the machine while the tooling is set up, and putting a decades blade blanks into stock for a relatively slow moving item. Even if they had the tooling in good condition, it probably wouldn't be worth the down time of switching the tooling over just to run off 500 knife blanks. The down time / change over time may well cost more than the stamping/coining time, thus doubling (or more) the production cost in terms of rate/hour and appropriation of overheads.

Due to the mass production and efficiency models they operate on, and which keep their knives so affordable, any new development/releases have got to be costed out in terms of many tens of thousands of units. If they don't think they are going to sell them in those quantities, they aren't going to make them - simple as that. Sorry guys. Wenger tried doing smaller batch runs of speSmurfpillst items, but we all know how that story ended - and so do the Elsener family 

Just my personal perspective 

To expand on this ...

If we assume stamping and coining of a blade blank on an automated run takes 2.5 seconds (which I don't think is unreasonable), every half hour of down time, switching dies over, costs the same time / share of overheads as the production of 720 blade blanks. Plus, on top of that, there's the labour involvement of both the toolsetter, and the guy retreiving the new tools from the stores, and returning the previous ones, compared with the automated stamping where the operators can walk away and work on another machine. It's far more cost effective to run through several thousands of components in one set, as and when bin stock needs replenishing.

I've always worked in lower volume, more speSmurfpillsed and significantly heavier component production, but I have been on tooling changeovers on heavy machinery which have taken two men (me and one other) between seven and eight hours to tackle up and the same again to tackle down at the end of the run. That's viable if you have a two week production run to do (or in our case, a batch of 25 components that take three or four hours each), but if it's just a one hour job - forget it. While my experience is not directly relevant to Vic's processing due to the differences in scale, I do have first hand experience of running production facilities where set up / change over times can make or break your entire company's profits for the month, subject to the batch quantities involved in each order / production run.

[Mechanickal]

Good inputs Al

[MacGyver]

I'm in love.
   84mm Golfjack recently modified by our brother, Magentus.

That's neat!

I keep wondering though, it's rumoured that Vic no longer produces 84mm scissors because the equipment to build them broke and was to expensive to replace.
Yet Wenger knives are 85mm and still contain scissors...
Vic owns the Wenger machinery...
85mm scissors for 84mm SAKs won't be that hard to fit, would it?

I somehow find it hard to believe Vic's reason, today, for not bringing back the 84mm scissors to be the broken machine excuse...  If every part is made from the specific stamping mold and if the machines are multitasking (one machine makes different tools) it would just be tha case to create a new stamping mold for the scissors and corresponding back spring... 

I really thing that the case here is: they just don't care, or want to bother with it    Since they have the 85mm series with scissors, i really don't think they will ever bring back the 84mm versions.

I don't want to be grouchy here, but sometimes it just feel's they are much more interested in making endless "limited editions" of standard models with fancy scales and neat boxes at ridiculous prices for collectors to buy, than in making and creating new tools or variant's for actual users and Sak enthusiasts. 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just my honest opinion these days

If the sales justified it before the tools crapped out, they would have replaced them. To resurrect them, they would have to replace the stamps and dies for the fixed scissor arm, movable arm, backspring, leaf spring, plus jigs and fixtures for drilling the holes, peening the scissor pivot etc etc etc. That level of investment needs the confidence that the sales demand will be there for several tens of thousands of units. A few nostalgic members of an internet forum aren't going to tip the balance  There's one way to get the scissors back, and that's to place an order for 50,000 units. 

Aside from this, their cost management approach seems very much to be minimising inventory these days. An example of this would be the Alox Solo blade. They now use a standard Pioneer blade, which sits off center in the handles due to the asymmetrical grind (NOT crinking). The Alox Solo stamps/dies/coining tools obviously crapped out at some point, and the sales of the Solo's aren't worth reinvesting in dedicated tooling - or even running a few coils of steel through the machine while the tooling is set up, and putting a decades blade blanks into stock for a relatively slow moving item. Even if they had the tooling in good condition, it probably wouldn't be worth the down time of switching the tooling over just to run off 500 knife blanks. The down time / change over time may well cost more than the stamping/coining time, thus doubling (or more) the production cost in terms of rate/hour and appropriation of overheads.

Due to the mass production and efficiency models they operate on, and which keep their knives so affordable, any new development/releases have got to be costed out in terms of many tens of thousands of units. If they don't think they are going to sell them in those quantities, they aren't going to make them - simple as that. Sorry guys. Wenger tried doing smaller batch runs of speSmurfpillst items, but we all know how that story ended - and so do the Elsener family 

Just my personal perspective 

To expand on this ...

If we assume stamping and coining of a blade blank on an automated run takes 2.5 seconds (which I don't think is unreasonable), every half hour of down time, switching dies over, costs the same time / share of overheads as the production of 720 blade blanks. Plus, on top of that, there's the labour involvement of both the toolsetter, and the guy retreiving the new tools from the stores, and returning the previous ones, compared with the automated stamping where the operators can walk away and work on another machine. It's far more cost effective to run through several thousands of components in one set, as and when bin stock needs replenishing.

I've always worked in lower volume, more speSmurfpillsed and significantly heavier component production, but I have been on tooling changeovers on heavy machinery which have taken two men (me and one other) between seven and eight hours to tackle up and the same again to tackle down at the end of the run. That's viable if you have a two week production run to do (or in our case, a batch of 25 components that take three or four hours each), but if it's just a one hour job - forget it. While my experience is not directly relevant to Vic's processing due to the differences in scale, I do have first hand experience of running production facilities where set up / change over times can make or break your entire company's profits for the month, subject to the batch quantities involved in each order / production run.

Thanks for the detailed and knowledgeable input on the matter mate 

I completely understand all your point's and agree with them. I really have no proper perspective on how much investment and labor it would take to bring back the 84mm scissors again, but for example the 84mm Walker (former Lumberjack), i don't know if they still had the old stamps around for the 84mm saw assembly or if they bult new ones. That had to toke some investment, so why go with the wood saw? Why not the 84mm small Climber instead? The Climber is probably one of their best selling models, so why would an 2 layer 84mm sak with a saw be considered more viable vs an 84mm of their best selling model in a more pocketable size?  Or even still for 2 layers why not the 84mm Golfer?

I just don't understand why they would consider an 84mm saw more usefull than an 84mm scissors, since they brought back the 84mm saw .... 
And given the fact people who carry 84mm models are more likely to use them in an urban/suburban environment, where scissors makes more sense.

[AimlessWanderer]

They already had the saw and combo tool in the inventory from the MFV+. It was simply a matter or putting together a different combinations of parts they already had. Even so, it's MUCH simpler to make a saw than scissors. One piece of metal for the blade, plus the grinding op, plus one backspring, compared with fixed arm + moveable arm + drilling and grinding both + pivot pin + preassembly and peening of pivot + leaf spring + fitting leafspring + backspring x many thousand

In fact they may even have introduced this model to boost throughput of the saw if the MFV+ wasn't selling in large enough numbers. It's add the Walker to try to boost sales and minimise slow moving inventory (saw blades and springs), or cull the MFV+ altogether. The combo tool already gets an extra boost to throughput of inventory from the Bantam and Waiter. There's always logic to their decisions, even if they are frustrating for the likes of us 

[Fast Bill]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

Danish run cadet?

That's it Dan. I do like the Cadet 

[Fast Bill]

Sportsman. Bliss. But I used the Wenger to slice the tomatoes.

 

Chevy the Golfjack again today 

Nice one Dan 

A little green Dane today

 

Love the green Cadet! The Pioneer X was supposed to be my one and only Alox model but I came down with Alox fever.

I didn't warm to the Cadet right away but after purchasing a silver model, it grew on me.  I have all available colors now including orchid.



Jim

The Cadet really works for me. Just love the ultra thin way it fades into my pocket no probs at all. 

[El Corkscrew]

Man, this thing is nice...

[NorCalJim]

Man, this thing is nice...

 

It was probably a year or year and a half ago that I was watching a series of Nut'nfancy YouTube videos about different products including one of his favorite light multi-tools, the Juice S2 (had scissors). At the time, scissors were one of my key requirements. One of Nut'nfancy's videos featured the Victorinox Cadet, which he praised. I remember really liking the form factor but having a concern that there were no scissors. It was no accident that my first Alox SAK was the Pioneer X that featured scissors. Eventually, I started buying various other Pioneer models and acquired a Cadet. Now I am a huge fan of the Cadet! It has an amazing build quality and packs very useful tools in a small, narrow form factor.  I thought I had all of the Cadet colors but just realized that I am missing the orange. I keep the silver Cadet within reach of where I watch TV and use it frequently.

Jim

[Fast Bill]

Man, this thing is nice...

 

It was probably a year or year and a half ago that I was watching a series of Nut'nfancy YouTube videos about different products including one of his favorite light multi-tools, the Juice S2 (had scissors). At the time, scissors were one of my key requirements. One of Nut'nfancy's videos featured the Victorinox Cadet, which he praised. I remember really liking the form factor but having a concern that there were no scissors. It was no accident that my first Alox SAK was the Pioneer X that featured scissors. Eventually, I started buying various other Pioneer models and acquired a Cadet. Now I am a huge fan of the Cadet! It has an amazing build quality and packs very useful tools in a small, narrow form factor.  I thought I had all of the Cadet colors but just realized that I am missing the orange. I keep the silver Cadet within reach of where I watch TV and use it frequently.

Jim

I'm not really an Alox fan 'cos I like my T&T and small screwdriver. That said my first Cadet sold me on the quality and toolset with a Classic to hand. But .... I'm not smitten by this years green colour so that's not happening for me. 

[Nix]

The Cadet really works for me. Just love the ultra thin way it fades into my pocket no probs at all. 

^^^ This ^^^

And it has a nice suite of tools, feels rugged, and is sheeple friendly. Fantastic EDC.

[Aloha]

Man, this thing is nice...

I concur.  I have a nice well used Red one.  When I got it poor thing had been really beat to crap.  I lovingly did what I could and its been quite a faithful friend.  I carried it to dinner the other night.  Just now I opened a can of tuna.  I wouldn't mind getting a newer version with the file.  Not sure 2 blades makes the most sense for me. 

[El Corkscrew]

What i really like about this cadet is the scales... They feel really unique in an awesome way... Never had one like this.

It'll probably remain a shelf queen..
 

I like 84mm... Just prefer 91mm plus scales or 93mm these days

[Nix]

It'll probably remain a shelf queen..
 

Noooooooooooooooooooo...!