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Cheap and cheerful???

kirk13 · 107 · 14038

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #30 on: September 07, 2011, 02:40:44 PM
Well said, Grant.

Jekostas, I was a bit vague on the "Chinese Way" for a reason, muddy waters so to say. A discussion about this won't lead to anything positive. I'm all for "Made in China" as long as there is a level playingfield. Grant slightly alluded to what is involved in going after such practices, so let's leave it at that.

While I agree that Peter Atwood won't loose any money on this, it is all too obvious that his intellectual properties have been appropriated. He surely is not the inventor of the pocket tool (a search in google books will turn up adverts for such tools in Popular Mechanics etc. from a hundred years ago), but this surely is a copy of his G3. Not even one attempt to improve his design.

As to this garnering him additional customers, I'm not so sure. The two markets are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. A potential buyer of this copy wouldn't even know who the originator is.


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #31 on: September 07, 2011, 03:27:59 PM
Maybe not initially, but if they like it enough to research it or lose it and try to go online to replace it many of them will read sites like this one and learn the truth.

Def

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gb Offline Farmman

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Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #32 on: September 07, 2011, 04:51:36 PM
Having looked at the two pictures the cheap tool is not an exact copy as the cut outs on top and bottom are different. Minimal change from the Atwood which I am sure was the design brief but still a change. As for it being a fake it is clearly branded differently to an Atwood so that accusation does not hold up either. Manufacturing has borrowed each others ideas since time began (soft drinks spring to mind) with small changes applied. The other example I keep coming to would be hex bits. Someone somewhere came up with the idea however there are lots of companies out there producing hex bits in there own name now which to me all look the same.
True I would not like some one stealing my invention.  However it does go on everywhere as described above and in the other posts above. I for one had more than my fair share of cheap leatherman knockoffs before getting the real thing. Yes they where naff and broke quickly, but without that frustration I would never have finally taken the plunge to get a proper leatherman.

Anyway can we please get back to showing the pictures of tools which keeps us all entertained?


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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #33 on: September 07, 2011, 05:05:24 PM
I agree that patents are probably worthless to someone like Atwood, as they tend to be to any small time inventor. The interesting thing here is that Atwood's success does not depend on his inventions or his "intellectual property". It depends on his business acumen and luck. Both of which he seems to have. He basically sells man-baubles for premium prices, and has carved out an enviable niche for himself. This is far more security than any claim on intellectual property can bestow.



us Offline MeadMaker

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #34 on: September 07, 2011, 05:12:26 PM
The discussion about  buying or not buying knock-offs will rage endlessly because that is the type of topic it is.  Many have very strong beliefs on either side of the discussion and nobody is likely to change their minds.

But the original complaint in this thread was not about the buying of knock-offs.  It was about supporting the buying of knock-offs.

kirk 13 started the thread with a picture and comments about a tool he purchased on Ebay. Some other members observed that it looked like a direct copy of an Atwood design.

Gadget Guy complained "It makes me sick that you guys support a direct copy! Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed."  No problem so far, but that statement left me a bit confused.  Was Gadget Guy sickened by the members or the mods?

Grant replies saying "Mods: This is my opinion only which Def says I'm allowed"  Seems right.  This is a forum for discussion, not an for enforcing one member's beliefs over another's. 

Gadget Guy responds with "No drama here... I do not agree with supporting fakes, so I will not support a forum that does. Please delete my account when you get a chance."  Now I am confused.  Is he saying that, by allowing a discussion about a knock-off, that Grant and MTO support kock-offs?  That is a bit of a stretch.  This forum has covered many topics including other discussions about copies, but I don't remember Grant or any other admin. supporting or recommending the design, manufacture or sale of knock-offs.

Gadget Guy may have quit over the apparent support of copies by other members of MTO.  That doesn't make sense though.  There seems to be just as many members who not only don't support the purchase of knock-offs, they are offended by it. In fact, that is a very good reason to let the discussion continue. Let the members on both sides of an issue present their views.

I don't agree with some of what is written in this forum, but that doesn't stop me from reading the posts here, in fact it is one of the things that helps keep things interesting.

Threeme2189 made an interesting observation.  We've talked about plenty of knock-offs and cheap alternatives before without any ill effects."

 If we can discuss copies of other items without such outrage, why should a discussion about an Atwood knock-off be any different?

Its too bad that a member was offended enough to quit.  Hopefully after some time away his curiosity will tempt him to come back and see what is going on here.





Tick Magnet


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #35 on: September 07, 2011, 05:40:46 PM
In John's defense, as he stated, he is very passionate about the works of small makers like Peter Atwood.  Because of this he tends to be somewhat overprotective, and if I may, somewhat hot blooded when the discussion comes up.  This is not meant to insult him in the slightest- in fact, I wish to heck I could create a product that inspired people to get behind it like that.

The down side is that John (using him as an example though the same thing can happen to most of us), can be offended by things, that when analyzed later on by a cooler head, seem quite different from what was initially read into it.  At the time, he likely saw our support of a discussion about a blatant attempt to rip off a friend of his as support for a thief, which I'm sure all of us would react similarly if we were in his position.  No one likes to sit idly by and watch their friend get ripped off. 

As time goes by and we examine the details without holding a grudge we can see that it is in fact just a harmless, yet interesting discussion over something that exists within our range of topics.  I hope that when John cools down and checks this thread out that he will decide to come back to us, but that is up to him, and as I said, there are no hard feelings.

This leads me into the speech I've made so often before, and yet hate having to make again.  The short version is that a forum becomes very boring when everyone thinks the same way about everything.  When folks are not allowed to have differences of opinions it is no longer a forum, it's an "againstum."

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #36 on: September 07, 2011, 05:56:21 PM
Let's put an end to this. Someone already buy one of these suckers. Use it hard. Put it away wet. Write a honest review here on MTO. That's the way it's done here. I've got my doubts regarding steel choice, heat treat, wrench sizes, thickness etc. Anyone who compromises the design process also compromises production.

I'm not buying. I'm invested in the real thing from the golden years (2002 to roughly 2007) with special requests and no egos involved. Today, there are competitors with original ideas that are worth a look. Thinking of it, I should probably unload the stuff before the Atwood bubble bursts.


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #37 on: September 07, 2011, 06:20:29 PM
Anyone here got the "real" version willing to do a head to head?  If so, I'll buy the tool and have it shipped to them for a comparison, then send it on to me and I'll give it a long term torture test and report back.

Anyone willing to help out, send me a PM.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


us Offline theonew

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #38 on: September 07, 2011, 06:24:21 PM
Frankly, I'm actually a little surprised that Mr. Atwood doesn't have any design patents on some of his more popular models (I did a search on the USPTO and found nothing). A design patent, while offering only modest protection, they can be designed around, would allow him to at least curtail cookie cutter knock-offs. A design patent is not very expensive to get and enforce compared to a utility patent. If he ever wanted to sell his company in the future those patents could prove to be quite valuable and dramatically up the purchase price.


Offline Seamaster

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #39 on: September 07, 2011, 06:34:17 PM
Well, artists can't be bothered with bureaucratic stuff.


um Offline Mr. Whippy

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #40 on: September 07, 2011, 06:34:59 PM
Anyone here got the "real" version willing to do a head to head?  If so, I'll buy the tool and have it shipped to them for a comparison, then send it on to me and I'll give it a long term torture test and report back.

Anyone willing to help out, send me a PM.

Def

I'll do it. I'll compare the knockoff to a couple different Atwood Prybaby versions.

Send me the knock off and I'll see what breaks when. >:D


dk Offline AHB

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #41 on: September 07, 2011, 06:39:29 PM

I'll do it. I'll compare the knockoff to a couple different Atwood Prybaby versions.

Send me the knock off and I'll see what breaks when. >:D
Nate's just the right man for the job imo..  >:D >:D 

 ;) :D


us Offline Gadget Guy

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #42 on: September 07, 2011, 06:40:51 PM
After reading the comments off-line I felt that I needed to respond here. First off, you guys are side stepping the facts about stealing. The fact that you cant afford an Atwood in not a valid reason to buy a fake. I guess we simply live in a world with thieves and crooks who can justify anything they want to steal. That's what you guys are doing when you buy fakes!  >:(

I'm not here to change your guys minds but simply state my opinion. The way that Grant talks about Peter is really frustrating. Grant, if Peter were to pay you would your view change? That is surely how you makes things sound buddy. Oh buy the way, makes sense that you would have this view since you can hock the fakes over at EDCSource.

I used to be Peter's top five customer. He would make custom pieces for me and basically make anything I asked of him. He got to the point where he was simply too busy to do that for any of his customers and that was hard for everyone, especially me. I don't cry about it though.  :cry:   Peter has been good to me and is a really great guy, but he cant please everyone. Peter is an artist first and a tool maker second. By the way, he does indeed have a patent on the original Prybaby.

This thread isn't really about Peter though. Its about what is right and what is wrong. I get super pissed off (yes, boiling mad) when it comes to people stealing other makers ideas. You guys are right when you say that Peter didn't invent the pocket tool, but when his version on the pocket tool is ripped off it is wrong plain and simple. Make any excuse you want, give any reason you want, but buy any knock-off tool and you're stealing. Same as walking into a store and taking a piece of candy. If that's okay with you then please admit here that you dont mind being a thief.

I'm not sure where I go from here. I'm really upset about all of this and even after a good night's sleep I really dont know if I can support a forum who condones stealing. Will leaving here be a loss for me? Yes it will because I love talking about tools and I have a great love for alox SAK's...

I'll just have to keep a close eye on this thread and see where it goes.
Sometimes change is a good thing, other times not so much!


us Offline theonew

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #43 on: September 07, 2011, 06:54:05 PM
By the way, he does indeed have a patent on the original Prybaby.

You wouldn't happen to know the number, I'd like to look it up.

My best friend is a patent attorney, maybe he could work out a contingency deal with Peter to go after some knock offs.


us Offline Gadget Guy

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #44 on: September 07, 2011, 06:56:13 PM
By the way, he does indeed have a patent on the original Prybaby.

You wouldn't happen to know the number, I'd like to look it up.

My best friend is a patent attorney, maybe he could work out a contingency deal with Peter to go after some knock offs.

I'm not going to bother Peter with any of this. He has washed his hands of this forum cr*p years ago. I do appreciate you offer of help though.  :cheers:
Sometimes change is a good thing, other times not so much!


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #45 on: September 07, 2011, 07:18:58 PM
I'm not here to change your guys minds but simply state my opinion. The way that Grant talks about Peter is really frustrating. Grant, if Peter were to pay you would your view change? That is surely how you makes things sound buddy. Oh buy the way, makes sense that you would have this view since you can hock the fakes over at EDCSource.

Since this is the part that is addressed to me, this is what I suppose I should respond to.

The bit I said about charging Peter has nothing to do with changing my opinion.  It has everything to do with this being my forum and as long as I own it lock stock and barrel, we'll keep an open mind about things.  If Peter (or anyone else) wants to have a share of this site then my open mind will listen to them.  Until then, I pay the bills, the site is run my way.  Tough titties to anyone who doesn't like it.

That's an unfair shot about me hocking things on EDCSource.  First off, nothing is free, but for the most part this forum is for members.  I pay for everything out of pocket, and I don't think a commercial end is out of the question, and it is separate from the forum so you don't have to go to EDCSource if you don't want to.  And, find me an item I currently have for sale at EDCSource- I don't sell anything there because I feel it would be a conflict of interest since I'm the owner and the seller, which could cause issues with any disputes.

At any rate, feel free to keep posting your thoughts- as I said, you are entitled to your opinion.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


us Offline Gadget Guy

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #46 on: September 07, 2011, 07:26:30 PM
I'm not here to change your guys minds but simply state my opinion. The way that Grant talks about Peter is really frustrating. Grant, if Peter were to pay you would your view change? That is surely how you makes things sound buddy. Oh buy the way, makes sense that you would have this view since you can hock the fakes over at EDCSource.

Since this is the part that is addressed to me, this is what I suppose I should respond to.

The bit I said about charging Peter has nothing to do with changing my opinion.  It has everything to do with this being my forum and as long as I own it lock stock and barrel, we'll keep an open mind about things.  If Peter (or anyone else) wants to have a share of this site then my open mind will listen to them.  Until then, I pay the bills, the site is run my way.  Tough titties to anyone who doesn't like it.

That's an unfair shot about me hocking things on EDCSource.  First off, nothing is free, but for the most part this forum is for members.  I pay for everything out of pocket, and I don't think a commercial end is out of the question, and it is separate from the forum so you don't have to go to EDCSource if you don't want to.  And, find me an item I currently have for sale at EDCSource- I don't sell anything there because I feel it would be a conflict of interest since I'm the owner and the seller, which could cause issues with any disputes.

At any rate, feel free to keep posting your thoughts- as I said, you are entitled to your opinion.

Def

Wow, talk about the land of splitting hairs.  ::)  I didn't mean that you personally sold fakes over at EDCSource, but that you would indeed allow them to be sold there. EDCSource is not stand alone. We get the listings over here that sometimes clog up pages, but like you said you pay the bills and are the top guy in charge, I get it.  :salute:
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 07:29:20 PM by Gadget Guy »
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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #47 on: September 07, 2011, 07:31:11 PM
Splitting hairs?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean?  Please elaborate.

I don't have any stake in Peter's business, therefore I don't dictate what he does with it.  I think it's only fair that it goes both ways.

And, I'm not sure how many other businesses would still be operating after six years of giving the product away for free. 

If you have problems with the way the site is run, by all means let me know and I'll take it under advisement.  I would prefer a PM about it, or I'm sure you have my phone number, I'd be happy to discuss it that way too, but if you'd rather do that in the open, I'm up for that too.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #48 on: September 07, 2011, 07:34:13 PM
In case you wonder who I don't respond for a bit, I'm off for a short nap.  It's nothing personal!   :pok:

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


us Offline Gadget Guy

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #49 on: September 07, 2011, 07:35:15 PM
This isn't about you and me. I apologize for making any comments on how you run you businesses.  :salute: I'll keep it to pm's in the future...
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #50 on: September 07, 2011, 07:41:08 PM
Drifting back to the tool for a bit ...

I applaud your passion John, but I suppose I draw the line in a different place as to what is a fake. Is a vaccuum cleaner other than a Hoover a fake? What about a mass produced car other than a Ford? Too diverse - OK - what about ball point pens?

I must echo again that these are not counterfeit. These are not items pretending to be something they are not, or pretending to be made by someone they are not. They are just cheaply produced similies. You relate to the Atwood tools as an art form made by someone who is an artist first and a tool maker second, so lets examine other art forms .... fashion ... yes you have firms making knock off Levis, trying to scam buyers into buying their inferior good by fraudulently assuming the name of a market leader ... then you've got other firms just making cheap jeans with a nondescript totally seperate branding. I would not knowingly buy knock off Levis - I would buy otherwise branded cheap jeans - even if they were styled after one of the bigger name's products.

Hopefully this clarifies the differentiation that a lot of people are putting on this topic. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it's not IMHO fraud or theft is this particular scenario. If I thought it was theft, I wouldn't condone it and I'm very sure there ain't many others here that would either.

EDIT: I ought to add I've been in manufacturing all my working life, both from the perspective of a service provider and a OEM so I fully understand the passion behind your views. We just have different interpretations of where imitation/inspiration becomes theft
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 07:54:14 PM by 50ft-trad »


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ca Offline jekostas

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #51 on: September 07, 2011, 08:30:53 PM
Drifting back to the tool for a bit ...

I applaud your passion John, but I suppose I draw the line in a different place as to what is a fake. Is a vaccuum cleaner other than a Hoover a fake? What about a mass produced car other than a Ford? Too diverse - OK - what about ball point pens?

I must echo again that these are not counterfeit. These are not items pretending to be something they are not, or pretending to be made by someone they are not. They are just cheaply produced similies. You relate to the Atwood tools as an art form made by someone who is an artist first and a tool maker second, so lets examine other art forms .... fashion ... yes you have firms making knock off Levis, trying to scam buyers into buying their inferior good by fraudulently assuming the name of a market leader ... then you've got other firms just making cheap jeans with a nondescript totally seperate branding. I would not knowingly buy knock off Levis - I would buy otherwise branded cheap jeans - even if they were styled after one of the bigger name's products.

Hopefully this clarifies the differentiation that a lot of people are putting on this topic. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it's not IMHO fraud or theft is this particular scenario. If I thought it was theft, I wouldn't condone it and I'm very sure there ain't many others here that would either.

EDIT: I ought to add I've been in manufacturing all my working life, both from the perspective of a service provider and a OEM so I fully understand the passion behind your views. We just have different interpretations of where imitation/inspiration becomes theft

Actually, fashion makes a very good example because there is a lot in common between fashion and tools.

Namely, it was decided a long time ago in US and International Courts that individual parts of clothing and design could not be patented because the holder of a patent on say... men's shirt collars could control the market to the detriment of the consumer for *years*.  This has not, to my knowledge, proven negative in any way to the consumer or the fashion industry as a whole.

It's the same in tools - individual components cannot be patented.  You can't hold a patent on a box wrench, you can't hold a patent on a hammer.  You might be able to get a patent on a very specific mechanical means of doing the job a box wrench or hammer does, but even that's kind of murky - Spyderco was unable to trademark the round opening hole even though it was a Spyderco design for 20+ years.  Benchmade has a patent on the Axis lock but that didn't stop a ton of companies from taking the basic design, tweaking it very slightly and making their own versions (Spyderco Ball Bearing Lock, Sog Piston lock, Sog Arc Lock, etc.).  Look and feel patents wouldn't work either - Mr. Atwood himself has said that he was inspired by old style alligator wrenches, and they would be considered prior art.


il Offline Threeme2189

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #52 on: September 07, 2011, 09:11:04 PM
I don't like stealing or being stolen from as much as any decent guy.
But where do we draw the line?
If people didn't "borrow ideas" from one another we would just have 1 kind of everything. And many things wouldn't exist today.
Why buy a samsung galaxy? it's a rip off of the iphone.
There are so many cheap alternatives to original higher priced products that have some kind of brand or a name that's worth more money.
Why should I buy gap when I can get old navy clothes for less?
Many technological advances have been made greatly due to taking somebodies idea or invention and changing it, and I'm sure a large number of times the other side didn't like the fact that someboy used their idea.

Like I said before, if Peter Atwood wants to go after them, that's his decision. I won't
As long as I have a choice, and it's legal then I will decide which product to buy.
If I decide to go the cheap way I'll be fully aware of the consequences.
If I buy a fake product that claims to be original, that's  whole other story.

By the way, this is a very interesting discussion.
I won't hold a grudge to anyone and I do hope it doesn't get out of hand.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:16:09 PM by Threeme2189 »
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ni-ulster Offline cerbera147

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #53 on: September 07, 2011, 10:14:55 PM
I've got an Atwood  :salute: :tu:

             


us Offline theonew

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #54 on: September 07, 2011, 10:23:25 PM
Here's a couple of interesting articles about design patent infringement:

Design Patent Infringement Post-Egyptian Goddess

Design Patent Infringement Analysis and the Fubar


us Offline turnsouth

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #55 on: September 07, 2011, 10:46:35 PM
That's interesting. It seems that the courts ignore functional features, and only look at ornamental features when deciding on infringement.

So in this case they would most likely disregard the wrench, cap lifter and pry bar, leaving only the ornamental imprinting and edge design. Both of which seem to have been purposefully changed in the Chinese model.

Very interesting indeed...
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ca Offline jekostas

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #56 on: September 07, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
If anyone is interested, I posted my thoughts on another one-piece tool by this same company over the in the reviews section: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,30886.0.html


us Offline theonew

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #57 on: September 07, 2011, 11:11:54 PM
That's interesting. It seems that the courts ignore functional features, and only look at ornamental features when deciding on infringement.

So in this case they would most likely disregard the wrench, cap lifter and pry bar, leaving only the ornamental imprinting and edge design. Both of which seem to have been purposefully changed in the Chinese model.

Very interesting indeed...

Actually, I saw the Egyptian Goddess ruling as having a positive effect in a case like this. Would it pass the "ordinary observer test"? I wouldn't think so. There is just too much similarity overall. If Mr. Atwood had a design patent in the US I would bet a simple "cease and desist" letter from an attorney would be enough to get the importer to drop it from their line. Most companies don't want to get involved in a lawsuit they know they can't win.


ca Offline jekostas

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #58 on: September 07, 2011, 11:19:24 PM
That's interesting. It seems that the courts ignore functional features, and only look at ornamental features when deciding on infringement.

So in this case they would most likely disregard the wrench, cap lifter and pry bar, leaving only the ornamental imprinting and edge design. Both of which seem to have been purposefully changed in the Chinese model.

Very interesting indeed...

Actually, I saw the Egyptian Goddess ruling as having a positive effect in a case like this. Would it pass the "ordinary observer test"? I wouldn't think so. There is just too much similarity overall. If Mr. Atwood had a design patent in the US I would bet a simple "cease and desist" letter from an attorney would be enough to get the importer to drop it from their line. Most companies don't want to get involved in a lawsuit they know they can't win.

The Navy tools all have their own branding applied quite clearly to them.  There is no attempt to pass them off as Atwood tools.  You give an "ordinary observer" an Atwood and the Navy tool and it would be easy for them to tell the difference.

And there are no US-based importers, so a cease-and-desist letter wouldn't do anything anyways.  If the Navy tools end up anywhere except China they're sold as one-offs. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:21:33 PM by jekostas »


us Offline theonew

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Re: Cheap and cheerful???
Reply #59 on: September 07, 2011, 11:33:46 PM
The Navy tools all have their own branding applied quite clearly to them.  There is no attempt to pass them off as Atwood tools.  You give an "ordinary observer" an Atwood and the Navy tool and it would be easy for them to tell the difference.

That's an interesting point. I'm meeting my patent attorney friend for drinks later, I'll ask him what he thinks.

And there are no US-based importers, so a cease-and-desist letter wouldn't do anything anyways.  If the Navy tools end up anywhere except China they're sold as one-offs.

That was really just hypothetical example of how one might be able to protect their intellectual property without a protracted court battle.


 

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