Leatherman OHT

[MeadMaker]

Some of the tools that I carry in my car tool box have a BO coating for rust prevention.  When they were new the coating did leave some marks on my hands and the equipment that I was working on.  They are tools so it doesn't bother me.  The people that complain about the BO finish leaving smudges on their skin might look upon their MT's as fashion statements not tools.

Not sure i agree with that.  I'm a building technician and use my MT every day, the idea that it would case me to leave black fingerprints all over a 5 star hotel would likely get me fired.

But if you take a new, or for matter an old,  tool into a 5 star hotel don't you make sure it is clean so that it does not get you fired?  I was once part of a project that included installing white carpet throughout a house.  Believe me,  I learned the value of keeping my tools and shoes clean on that job.

I recently bought a new 4" adjustable wrench to use as part of my bicycle EDC.  It there was some oil on the head that was excess lubricant from the adjusting screw.  I didn't complain about it, I just cleaned it off.  Its a tool. Tools are often dirty or oily.   If it had been a belt buckle, tie clasp or watch band that had stained my clothes I would probably have felt differently.

Quite right.  However you and I know that a new BO finish is going to need cleaning before you use it, not everyone might know that.   I do agree though that you'd have to be fairly foolish not to work it out for yourself before it became an issue.

The only real difference I can see between oil and BO residue on a new tool is that one is an essential part of the operation/rust prevention on a tool, the other is simply a by product of a process and really doesn't need to be there.

We are not far apart on this Gareth, but I see the last part differently.  The excessive oil could have been cleaned off of the adjustable wrench by the manufacturer, but they chose not to.  No big deal.   The story is the same with the BO residue.

[Mercury]

I'm of the mind the majority of their sales are to civilians, not the military, and their color selections are based on fashion/whims, not needs.

edit to add: There are 15 pages of reviews on Amazon for the Black Oxide Wave, and on just the first page of those appears these individual comments:

"as another person has mentioned, the finish on this tool is less than ideal. It comes off on your hands and anything you touch for the first week or two of use"

"However, herein lies its particularly annoying flaw. Right out of the box, the finishing coat on this tool left black smudges and marks all over my hands, especially where lubricant was applied. Now, overlooking the sissy/feminine jokes sure to come, that's just not okay with me, especially if those smudges transfer to whatever I'm working on"

"When you get your Leatherman Wave w/ Black Oxide finish ...you will get "Black Hands"..I mean the finish will rub off on to your hands."

"And the black color makes it look cool as well."
[THAT'S why people buy it!- mzil]

"Someone mentioned that the black finish comes off ... and, yes, it does. I had the same problem with my TDI K-bar but once wiped down with a towel it's fine."

"The only slightly annoying thing about this tool is that it needs a good rubbing down when you first get it. The black oxide finish is kinda powdery when you first get it out of the box and rubs black stains into everything it touches."

Those comments do nothing but prove my point.  Black oxide is a function, not a "color".  It's not paint, it's not cerakote, it's not powdercoating.  It is a form of controlled oxidation(rust) that is chemically induced.  Since it is oxidation in itself, there is waste residue.

 And it looks cool.   

True, most everyone who buys a BO tool likes the way they look, but an educated buyer won't whine about the coating coming off because they actually understand what it is they are buying.  Therefor, if you have to complain about BO coming off, you probably aren't the type of person who needs it. 

[Dunc]

For me, the black stain in your hands is just part of the excitement. 

I'm glad you said that , I bet I wasn't the only one thinking it 

[mzil]

True, most everyone who buys a BO tool likes the way they look, but an educated buyer won't whine about the coating coming off because they actually understand what it is they are buying.  Therefor, if you have to complain about BO coming off, you probably aren't the type of person who needs it.

I'm not sure I'm quite understanding your meaning in this last sentence. What exactly is this type of people who need it? The military?

[Mercury]

Well that's a given, but you are right in that Leatherman's sales are primarily civilian, and the uses for a BO tool in the civilian world are mainly limited to wet environments where rust would be an issue.  If you know about rusty tools, and have done your research about how to inhibit said rust, you would likely discover a great deal about Black oxide considering it's widespread use in manufacturing knives and tools.  That would make you an educated buyer, one who understands what BO is.  If you are buying it for the "color" alone, do a bit of research about the thing you think is cool.  But then again there are a lot of folks out there who don't know a thing about half the stuff they own. 

[mzil]

Well that's a given, but you are right in that Leatherman's sales are primarily civilian, and the uses for a BO tool in the civilian world are mainly limited to wet environments where rust would be an issue.

You honestly think the majority of their BO sales (which you concur with me are to civilians)  are, what was it again? "mainly limited" to people who pick it due to their concern for rust when used in wet environments? Really? Wow.

Oh wait, reading it again, I guess you mean this market segment, which happens to also be the majority, SHOULD be buying/using it for its rust resistance in wet environments, and if they are actually buying BO for some OTHER reason, say, I don't know, just as a possible example, "its appearance", then that would be the stupid publics' fault for "not using the right tool for the right job.", if say they have some silly gripe about it, like it soiling their hands with use, at least when new and not having gone through a rubbed down/cleaned up session proir to initial use [or just accepting filthy hands for the first few days/weeks]. Did I get that right?

[captain spaulding]

.

[Dunc]

Black oxide is a practical finish , diamond like coating (DLC) on the other I would consider more for pleasing the eye like say the Skeletool CX , it's not just limited to rubbing off when new to Leatherman , my BO Vic Spirit and Gerber MP400 did as well. I find spending 10 minutes with a cloth and a bit WD40 a small price to pay when getting a new BO tool.
  But let's consider LMs painted tools like the Green Wave and the Skeletools in several colours , they are I would consider that way purely to please the eye and that paint chips and flakes off the moment you take it out the clam packet.

If you want to by BO tools because you like the look of them then fair enough , that's the main reason why I buy mine , sometimes so I can have a SS and a BO version. I also like the look of a well worn BO tool. But I really wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

  Now back to the OHT  I nearly got one a couple of weeks ago but changed my mind at the last minute. I'm still not sure 

[Chako]

You need one Dunc...even if it is just to compare it to a Gerber.     

[Dunc]

You need one Dunc...even if it is just to compare it to a Gerber.     

Yeh I know , its no good fighting it , I'll end up with one eventually 

[Mercury]

Well that's a given, but you are right in that Leatherman's sales are primarily civilian, and the uses for a BO tool in the civilian world are mainly limited to wet environments where rust would be an issue.

You honestly think the majority of their BO sales (which you concur with me are to civilians)  are, what was it again? "mainly limited" to people who pick it due to their concern for rust when used in wet environments? Really? Wow.

Oh wait, reading it again, I guess you mean this market segment, which happens to also be the majority, SHOULD be buying/using it for its rust resistance in wet environments, and if they are actually buying BO for some OTHER reason, say, I don't know, just as a possible example, "its appearance", then that would be the stupid publics' fault for "not using the right tool for the right job.", if say they have some silly gripe about it, like it soiling their hands with use, at least when new and not having gone through a rubbed down/cleaned up session proir to initial use [or just accepting filthy hands for the first few days/weeks]. Did I get that right?

That's not what I said.  I mean the only practical use for BO in the civilian world is to inhibit rust, and that anyone buying a BO coated tool for that reason would understand what it is.  If you are buying it because it looks cool that's ok too, but whining about it coming off is like lifting your two wheel drive pickup, slapping huge tires on it, and complaining that it affected your gas mileage.  It makes you sound ignorant. 

I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, and I definitely didn't mean to hijack the thread but I stand by my remarks. 

[mzil]

I mean the only practical use for BO in the civilian world is to inhibit rust, and that anyone buying a BO coated tool for that reason would understand what it is.

Leatherman themselves makes NO such claims in any of their promotional literature, owner's manuals, or FAQ pages, nor do they claim that it meets any military spec such as MIL-DTL-13924 or AMS 2485. This makes complete sense though, because the cold process black oxide coating which they use is KNOWN not to inhibit rust or corrosion, other than many users feeling an oily rag/ rub down stage is necessary, mostly to keep their hands from becoming covered with black smut, and (supposedly) to "set" the finish, but of course rubbing any tool with oil will help inhibit rust/corrosion, regardless of color.

"Cold black oxide
 
Cold black oxide is applied at room temperature. It is not an oxide conversion coating, but rather a deposited copper selenium compound. This coating produces a similar color, but tends to rub off easily and offers no corrosion protection."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide#Cold_black_oxide

People also should be very careful about what they've read about BO on the internet, because most of the discussion of it is referring to the more complex, hot (or mid) temperature process, not the more basic cold process. This article describes the difference quite nicely:

"What is it?

Black oxide is a conversion coating formed by a chemical reaction produced when parts are immersed in the alkaline aqueous salt solution operated at approximately 285 degrees F. The reaction between the iron of the ferrous alloy and the hot oxide bath produces a magnitite (Fe3 O4) on the actual surface of the part. It is possible to oxidize non-ferrous metals under suitable conditions to form black oxides. It is possible to apply black oxide at room temperature, however it is not possible to achieve all of the benefits available from the "hot" oxide process. The cold black oxide process routinely shows color variation from part to part and the black material frequently rubs off in your hands. The cold process does not meet military or automotive specifications. Therefore the remainder of this article addresses the "hot" black oxide process."
[emphasis mine]

Source:
http://www.swdinc.com/BlackOxideBasics.html

Note: To any of you reading this who don't own a Leatherman BO tool, if you are mistakenly thinking it's finish is analogous to the barrel of say an M4, an automotive part, or perhaps a crowbar, guess again. It's not like those at all, [except for color]. With those, using a hot process black oxide, or even mid temperature black oxide process, DOES indeed inhibit corrosion. After having researched Leatherman's black oxide for over a year, even having started a thread here just to learn more about its actual durability in the field from others [http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,25098.0.html], I can tell you that the ONLY claim Leatherman makes about it is that it is useful in "military applications" where the black matte finish won't betray one's position to the enemy, due to reflections. [And that claim only appears, at least that I've seen, only in forum responses to complaints about how the cold process black oxide coating rubs off so easily, where they use the exact same, "But it's not meant for YOU" argument, despite that group, civilians, actually making up the vast majority of their BO sales, at least if you ask me.]

[Mercury]

You obviously care about this WAY more than I do.  I was merely pointing out a silly gripe about a feature of multi's that a tool user should just live with, or don't buy the tool.  I never said that Leatherman claimed their tools were made to milspec, in fact it's a well known fact that they aren't.  They likely use the most cost effective process for their methods, and they don't make anyone buy anything.  They don't market the "cool" factor of BO either, so buying it for THAT reason is entirely up to the consumer. 

As for the durability, ALL of the Leatherman tools I have owned with a BO finish have ZERO rust on them.  The coating was in awesome shape at the time I sold them, which for most was after a decent amount of use and carry.  The BO Wave I am shipping out on friday was my EDC for a year, and it got used in the rain and snow, dinged up on concrete, and generally abused as any multi is by a seasoned user.  It looks amazing after a wipedown, no rust whatsoever, and no BO came off on the paper towels.  The only smudging that happened was the first week I had it, and it was nothing I would have ever mentioned to anyone, let alone griped about it.  The tool handled everything Leatherman intended it to, including holding up amazingly well in wet conditions.  I would say it's everything they say it is, and I'm glad I bought it.

I, as well as most of our senior members, already know the info contained in your post, you likely got at least some background knowledge on the subject from this very forum. 


I didn't intend to start a debate, and I don't intend to continue this one.  Let's bury the hatchet on this before the Mods step in and lock the thread.

[mzil]

  I was merely pointing out a stupid gripe about a feature of multi's that anyone with half a brain would just live with...

...Gripe away, I'm done with you.

You are welcome to put down and belittle those of us with "half brains" as having "a stupid gripe" regarding our hands becoming filthy when we use our tools for crafts where we can't afford to handle the work with soiled fingers, all you want.

I wouldn't think much of it either, myself, if Leatherman was more upfront and gave at least some acknowledgment or warning that this black smut should be expected (since they use the less expensive cold process), or gave suggestions as to how to at least minimize it [a thorough rub down session, followed then by an independent wet cleaning session of the OHT's coyote tan scales, at least if one "oddly" wants the tool's scales not to be sooty, and to instead look like the ones in their sales brochures], but if you spread falsehoods that their cold process BO isn't just cosmetic, but is instead to inhibit rust, I'll be here to correct you, backing everything I say with independent, third party links.

Here's a review from a person who has owned a coyote OHT for only one day. He comments on how all the ones he inspected at Cabela's were filthy, at 5m30s. Unless he reads up on it [and that wont be from Leatherman documents!] that he needs to undergo a thorough wipe down session, he's going to continue soiling the scales from his own hands!



For those of you who don't care about the grime, fine, but I'm glad I did some research to learn about it beforehand and how to deal with it, and I hope at least someone reading this in the future will get something out of it, since they certainly aren't going to get this info from any published Leatherman documents [at least not currently, at the time of this posting].

[Dunc]

Guys can we call an end to this now please , I realise you both have your points of view and we can't all agree with each other all the time but it would be a shame if we have to lock this thread.

[Mercury]

 

I'm backing out before I get myself in trouble here.  I'll not respond to that last post, my apologies to all for stirring up conflict. 

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

[Mercury]

Wow, we sure killed the thread!


Back on topic, where is the best place to get an OHT?  All I can find is uber expensive ones on ebay.   

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

[Metropolicity]

Wow, we sure killed the thread!


Back on topic, where is the best place to get an OHT?  All I can find is uber expensive ones on ebay.   

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

I have a NIP black one. Let me know.

[Sazabi]

Or for the BO/Tan ones, LL Bean has them for $69.99 with free shipping.

[Mercury]

Nice.  Thanks for the info!


@ eric,  thanks but don't hang on to it on my account, I'm so poor right now from my move that I can't do anything but trade for a while. 

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

[David]

Sean I got the Tan one from Cabelas and the BO from REI.

[stealth007s]

I saw the BO OHT at Bass Pro for $70 last week. REI wanted $85 or $90 I think.

[Mercury]

Those prices are pretty reasonable, especially when compared to ebay prices.

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

[Goatlord666]

that's right , Sazabi . LL Bean's still got it for around $70 with free shipping....but i'm still saving my pennies for this one. Since I spend a good bit of time in the jungles, that saw is simply a good addition as well as the replaceable wire cutters... it's just unimaginable how much rusty wires can be found everywhere...even in the jungle. Oh well

[Mercury]

I'm really starting to jones for one of these.  I know I talked a bunch of smack about how ugly it is when it was first announced, and I still think it's ugly but I really want one!

[captain spaulding]

I'm really starting to jones for one of these.  I know I talked a bunch of smack about how ugly it is when it was first announced, and I still think it's ugly but I really want one!

I feel the same way. I think its ugly as sin and the tool just looks cheap to me. (My opinion). With that said my curiosity makes me wan't one anyways.  I can always trade it if I don't like it.

[mzil]

The Swiss Knife Shop has them for $69.85, free shipping, and if on their mailing list, they send out 10% off coupons for most holiday's such as Mother's Day, July 4th, etc.

[Goatlord666]

 

....man, i tried not to...but i have lost sooo much sleep on this... I gave in and got one today... when I got home I made hunter's stew and used it to prep for cooking.

will post some pics later...man that purchase made me so piss poor ...but happy 

[Kukamunga]

I'm such an idiot that I got both back when they came out last fall.  They haven't gotten as much use as I actually had *foreseen*, however I really like the tool.  If you're already OCD with multi-tools, then you're still OK with the unique pliers this tool has.  Eh - if you see what I mean in a 'mental floss' sort of way.

Regardless, they've come in handy a number of times for someone who's a mere homeowner - and say, not in the trades or whatever.  As of right now, there's really only two things I'd say were a dumb oversight:

1] Some kind of clip availability [I dig the molle sheaths, but unless you've got a separate tool belt...]
2] The drivers don't have much reach [OK, but offer a bit extender of some kind, no?]

The slide out, spring-loaded pliers though - that's great.  Have not had one problem with that feature either.   

[Grant Lamontagne]

Just to get back to the rust resistance/BO discussion for a moment.... I think it's safe to say that I live in probably one of the worst environments for corrosion represented by members of this forum and my results with BO tools has been less than stellar.

Rusty MUT



Also, there was a previous problem with a polished Wingman.

Wingman's been shot down



The BO coating is not the be all, end all to rust resistance, and is one of the reasons I rarely buy BO tools with intent to use.  If the BO version costs more (which it often does) I have no interest in paying extra for a tool that is going to rust up just as bad as the cheaper one.

Def