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Please, no more...

Offline ringzero

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Please, no more...
on: January 29, 2008, 10:34:02 PM
...close up photos of tools photographed against light backgrounds.

Thought about posting this in the camera/photo forum, but thought it would get better exposure here.

I'm not the greatest photographer - in fact, right now I don't even have a functioning digital camera.

Nevertheless, I'm going to offer a tip on how to NOT photograph multis, knives, etc.

Please don't set them against any light-colored background (white being about the worst) such as a piece of paper, white countertop, magazine page, etc.

The contrast between the light background and the object in the foreground - multi, knife, flashlight, gun, etc. - typically OBSCURES the object being photographed.

Black or darker colored objects fare the worst, but this is a problem with even lighter colored objects.

Often, all that will be visible is the outline of the object and mere hints of surface details.

If you're going to go to all the trouble to take and post photos, please don't do this.

My thanks to all of you who do post photos, most of which are beautifully done.

.
 
N


scotland Offline Sea Monster

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #1 on: January 29, 2008, 10:49:38 PM
Today's Headline!

Man Dislikes Lightbox photos.
In recent years on Multitool.org, many members have begun using home made "lightboxes" to photograph their tools, however one outspoken Multitool user, alias "Ringzero", has loudly proclaimed his opposition to this act, claiming use of such devices impairs or even goes so far as to ruin enjoyment of a Multitool or Knife picture.

Stay tuned for updates!


england Offline Benner

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #2 on: January 29, 2008, 10:53:46 PM
Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I think we have seen some excellent examples of close up's against a white background and I can't think of any that have shown any of the problems you have said.

My wife was a photographer for a newspaper and she also sees no problem with this ???  

Do you have any examples where this method has not worked?

Benner
I'm back!!


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #3 on: January 29, 2008, 10:54:02 PM
Please don't take this as a direct attack at you :) it's just my view!

I think i'll have to disagree with you on this one, its not about the backgrond its more anout the lighting that is used to take the photo than the background it is taken against, take this image for example, taken of a black oxide gerber against a very white background, i've uploaded the full resolution pic so you can see the detail. You can see where bits of fluff has collected in between the tools parts where the coating has rubbed/chipped off.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/RoadieRyan/P12000001.jpg

If you use the flash to take the photo you do rish washing out the image, but with some diffused lighting you can take a very clear image against a white background. I don't claim to be the worlds best photographer nor do i have a brilliant camera, so if i can pull it off i'm sure others can and do.

Here's another example of black against white, you can even see the picture on the screen of my phone.
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/RoadieRyan/P1190087.jpg
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 12:14:51 AM
Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I think we have seen some excellent examples of close up's against a white background and I can't think of any that have shown any of the problems you have said.

My wife was a photographer for a newspaper and she also sees no problem with this ???  

Do you have any examples where this method has not worked?

Benner


I agree that it's possible to get a decent close up photo of a darker object against a lighter background - but why?  It's harder to accomplish, and when done incorrectly - which is fairly easy to do - such photos often turn out poorly.

Even if the white background photo is done well, the same object photographed against a darker background will usually result in a better photo.  That is, better in the sense of communicating useful information about the object, as opposed to some sort of 'artistic' effect.

Prolonged viewing of dark background photos produces much less eye strain.  Similar in principle to setting an application for light text against a dark background, rather than the default setting of black text on a white background.  Information will be communicated more efficiently with less eye strain.

This is my preference, but judging from responses so far it's doubtful I'll persuade anyone to my point of view.

All that I can think of to suggest is to try it yourself.  Photograph the same object:
-sitting on a sheet of white paper
-sitting on a background like a dark wood tabletop

Compare the pics on your monitor and see which pic looks better and causes less eye strain to view.

.
 
N


us Offline hawkchucker

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 12:35:20 AM
I gotta say I actually like the lightbox photos better. I can see the details of the tools better, and more defined.

One of the best parts of the lightbox is the flood of light. It allows you to see all the tooling. Which for me is important. Being a father of a kiddo who allways needs shoes, and food i have to spend my money carefully. These photoes allows me to get a better bang for my buck.
S


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 12:41:27 AM
Ok i don't have any decent dark backgrounds to work with, black on black doesn't work too well! But here's some cardboard vs white paper shots. I tried to keep the positions the same but with replacing the background there was some movement. Camera settings kept the same for both pics as was the lighting. I will not comment on the differences i will let other people compare them for me so that i am not biased.

I can understand the point about viewing dark backgrounds and light text, but do you really spend more than a few minutes looking at a single picture like you would reading a text document? Although i don't have this problem myself, i do know people who can't proof read documents on screen due to this problem.

Anyway pic:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/RoadieRyan/Comparison.jpg

Edit: I will look for some better backgrounds to use tomorrow but its late and i don't want to disturb my housemates.
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


Offline Leatherman123

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 01:01:33 AM
No offense Ring but who really cares about the pics! Its good if you want to buy a tool and you want to see detailed pics. Who gives a crap about the quality of it. Plus, the people that have homemade light boxes take really good pictures.. Just my thoughts...
B


us Offline Spoonrobot

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 03:56:43 AM
Interesting input Mr.Zero.

Is this problem an effect of your monitor or the photos themselves?

I find that when tools are photographed against a white background it is much better to use a warmer white balance that downplays the blues and tones up the reds/yellow making for easier viewing.


ph Offline edap617

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 04:01:22 AM
Hi there RZ!

I'll try to experiment using your tips.


Offline I'm Still Bison

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 04:18:18 AM
 I think this topic would be better located in the Shutter Shop.
I


us Offline Spoonrobot

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 04:34:02 AM




I think I see your point, seems counter-intuitive though. Next photo-essay will go back to a darker background and we'll see how that works.


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 06:35:46 AM
I can understand the point about viewing dark backgrounds and light text, but do you really spend more than a few minutes looking at a single picture like you would reading a text document? Although i don't have this problem myself, i do know people who can't proof read documents on screen due to this problem.


A friend who is a commercial photographer taught me years ago to avoid light backgrounds in closeups if possible, especially when trying to show fine detail.

Probably due to aging I've become more susceptible to eye strain.  Anymore I find it harder to work with black text on a white background for any length of time without eye strain and headache.

You're correct about spending a fairly short time looking at any given pic.  But, if I concentrate for a while on a single pic that shows a large number of tools or look at a sequence of pics with white backgrounds, it does sometimes bother me.

Also, due to the way the eye works in setting the diameter of the pupil, the light background makes it harder to discern detail near the edges of the object.


Edit: I will look for some better backgrounds to use tomorrow but its late and i don't want to disturb my housemates.


Thanks for being willing to consider my point of view and to experiment with different backgrounds.

I'm not trying to get people to modify their photo taking to suit my visual problems.  I honestly do believe that darker backgrounds will improve close up pics for most viewers.

Personally, aside from eye strain, I don't care for white backgrounds purely for esthetic reasons.

Someone mentioned diffuse lighting.  It's possible to have diffuse lighting without a white background.

.
 
N


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 06:57:53 AM
No offense Ring but who really cares about the pics! Its good if you want to buy a tool and you want to see detailed pics. Who gives a crap about the quality of it. Plus, the people that have homemade light boxes take really good pictures.. Just my thoughts...


Well you do have a point there, Leatherman123.  For those folks that just want to get a quick look to see what to buy and what to avoid buying, almost any low resolution pic will be good enough.

Some people do seem to care about tool pics, judging from some of the amazing photos posted here.  There's no need for those higher resolution pics, running to hundreds of KB or even a MB, just to make buying decisions.

Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but it bothers me to see a pic that is excellent in all respects but one, that one thing being easily correctable.

.
N


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #14 on: January 30, 2008, 01:14:32 PM
Here are a couple of photo's comparing different backgrounds with both a "silver" tool and a black oxide one. One thing to note is that the backgrounds are not all the same material, the red being much more reflective than the others which are cardboard, and white and yellow paper. In my eyes the detail of the tools is not really lost on any of the photo's, however the colour of the tool does seem to change slightly depending on which background it is on. I have nothing against using a coloured background nor experimenting with my pictures but i am still struggling to see the point about losing detail by using a white background. I will look for a dark wood background (as you suggested) but i don't think there is one in my house here at uni.

Well you do have a point there, Leatherman123.  For those folks that just want to get a quick look to see what to buy and what to avoid buying, almost any low resolution pic will be good enough.
Some people do seem to care about tool pics, judging from some of the amazing photos posted here.  There's no need for those higher resolution pics, running to hundreds of KB or even a MB, just to make buying decisions.

Yes if some one just wants to see the rough shape of something then a low resolution picture is fine, but however if someone is looking for a particular instance of say the PST which has gone through quite a few minuscule changes in its history then a high resolution picture is the only way of getting a good view of which revision that particular tool is. Another advantage of taking higher resolution pictures is if someone wants to use it as a desktop background on their computer they do not have to put up with a picture that when stretched to fill the screen it is just a collection of blobs.

I'm not arguing that different backgrounds can make a photo better or worse just that there are times when a certain background will work much better. You need some contrast between the tool and the background otherwise the tool will not stand out. A black tool on a dark background will not in my experience stand out very well, but your experience may be different. The main problem when taking pictures though is getting the lighting right (something i am still working on), using the flash sometimes gives a better picture, other times it washes the tool out. The only way to figure out what is the best for a certain situation is to experiment, no one can say exactly what will work best for each photo. No one here claims to be an expert photographer and most people don't have the greatest camera available so we make do with what we have and for the most part using a lightbox with a white background enables us to take some "decent" photo's a lot more easily than other methods.

I've probably rambled too much and gone off the point somewhat but i don't think any one will mind!

The pics
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/RoadieRyan/4diffback.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/RoadieRyan/4diffback2.jpg
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


us Offline Spoonrobot

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #15 on: January 30, 2008, 01:38:31 PM
Thanks for the comparison pics Roadie!

I'm always trying to upgrade my photography skills and this thread has some interesting points.

Did someone say dark wood?

With a regular finish tool I can't really tell the difference between the two. The camera doesn't really have a preference.


Black oxide, on the other hand, really shows up a lot better on my camera when placed on the wooden background.


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #16 on: January 30, 2008, 01:53:45 PM
Thanks for the comparison pics Roadie!
I'm always trying to upgrade my photography skills and this thread has some interesting points.
Did someone say dark wood?
With a regular finish tool I can't really tell the difference between the two. The camera doesn't really have a preference.
Black oxide, on the other hand, really shows up a lot better on my camera when placed on the wooden background.

No problem, i'm learning as i go too so its useful for me to do this sort of comparison.

The dark wood comparisons are helpful, the BO tool does seem to have more detail on the darker background but the colour rendition to my eyes is off, the white background looks more like a real life shot to me (this is on 3 different monitors to rule out that as the problem!)

Roadie
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #17 on: January 30, 2008, 05:21:51 PM
Here are a couple of photo's comparing different backgrounds with both a "silver" tool and a black oxide one....


Excellent job Roadie.

To my eyes, by far the best pics showing fine detail are the ones using the textured red background.  Next would be the tan background, followed by yellow, with white being by far the worst!

If you examine just the red and white bg pics side by side, there's really no comparison - the red bg pic is far superior.

The white bg in grossly inferior to red and tan bgs, and slightly inferior to the yellow bg.

.
N


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #18 on: January 30, 2008, 05:42:40 PM
Here are a couple of photo's comparing different backgrounds with both a "silver" tool and a black oxide one....


Excellent job Roadie.

To my eyes, by far the best pics showing fine detail are the ones using the textured red background.  Next would be the tan background, followed by yellow, with white being by far the worst!

If you examine just the red and white bg pics side by side, there's really no comparison - the red bg pic is far superior.

The white bg in grossly inferior to red and tan bgs, and slightly inferior to the yellow bg.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one! I can see just as much detail in both pictures, but if you prefer the red one there is nothing i can do about it and its your right to have your own opinion. The world would be boring if everyone liked exactly the same thing.

Roadie
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 06:02:55 PM
Did someone say dark wood?

Black oxide, on the other hand, really shows up a lot better on my camera when placed on the wooden background.
(Image removed from quote.)


Great comparison pics, Spoonrobot!

To my eyes - on two different monitors - pic with wooden bg is far superior to white bg pic.  The difference in discernable surface detail is striking.

The difference in quality is greatest with the Black Oxide finish pics, just as theory would predict.

.
 
N


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 06:32:46 PM
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one! I can see just as much detail in both pictures, but if you prefer the red one there is nothing i can do about it and its your right to have your own opinion. The world would be boring if everyone liked exactly the same thing.

Roadie


Roadie, I just carefully re-examined your red bg vs. white bg pics.  I looked at them on three different monitors.

I can't imagine how you can not see that the red bg pics show superior surface detail.  Aside from esthetic differences, the greater discernable surface detail is clearly visible if you look closely.

Look at the Victorinox shield logo in the white bg and red bg pics.  Can't you see a big difference?

Look closely at the pivots and rule marks in the other white bg and red bg pics.  You really can't see a difference?

.
N


england Offline Dunc

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #21 on: January 30, 2008, 07:50:21 PM
...close up photos of tools photographed against light backgrounds.

Thought about posting this in the camera/photo forum, but thought it would get better exposure here.

I'm not the greatest photographer - in fact, right now I don't even have a functioning digital camera.

Nevertheless, I'm going to offer a tip on how to NOT photograph multis, knives, etc.

Please don't set them against any light-colored background (white being about the worst) such as a piece of paper, white countertop, magazine page, etc.

The contrast between the light background and the object in the foreground - multi, knife, flashlight, gun, etc. - typically OBSCURES the object being photographed.

Black or darker colored objects fare the worst, but this is a problem with even lighter colored objects.

Often, all that will be visible is the outline of the object and mere hints of surface details.

If you're going to go to all the trouble to take and post photos, please don't do this.

My thanks to all of you who do post photos, most of which are beautifully done.

.
 

I cant see a problem with it myself



Dunc


us Offline NutSAK

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #22 on: January 30, 2008, 09:01:43 PM

Black oxide, on the other hand, really shows up a lot better on my camera when placed on the wooden background.
(Image removed from quote.)

Spoon, are you using automatic settings?

This appears to be a poor example to me, because the focus in the second picture is clearly on the background, not the tool.  The exposure and/or lighting are drastically different between the two pictures also.

EDIT:  Looking at it again, the focus looks good.  The lighting on the tool makes all the difference.





« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:46:10 PM by NutSAK »
- Terry


us Offline prime77

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #23 on: January 30, 2008, 10:22:23 PM
I have found this thread very interesting. I have to say that I like white backgrounds. I have no problem seeing the details of the object being photographed.



I see your point that sometimes the white of the background can overpower whats in the picture. Like this one

"


gb Offline Roadie

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 11:33:38 PM
Roadie, I just carefully re-examined your red bg vs. white bg pics.  I looked at them on three different monitors.

I can't imagine how you can not see that the red bg pics show superior surface detail.  Aside from esthetic differences, the greater discernable surface detail is clearly visible if you look closely.

Look at the Victorinox shield logo in the white bg and red bg pics.  Can't you see a big difference?

Look closely at the pivots and rule marks in the other white bg and red bg pics.  You really can't see a difference?

Yes i can see a tiny difference but in no way is it as huge a deal as you seem to be making it on both i can clearly see the individual markings on the ruler and the Vic shield. With a bit of adjustment in your favourite photo editing software you can easily retrieve the extra couple of percent of detail. But if you look at the bottom of the tool where the two handles meet you can easily see more on the white background on the red one the tool has become coloured red and makes it difficult to determine what is going on there.
Life is like a sandwich...the older it gets the crustier it becomes!


Offline damota

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 01:59:31 AM
White back ground shots are a standard shooting style for any technical photo. That is the reason why light tents and light boxes are sold, not so much in your local photo equipment shop but pro shops will stock them.
I think you could have made your point better if you had mentioned that high contrast images were a problem for you and others that may have the same problem as you have, rather than saying a style of photographing this type of image was wrong.
The trouble with using dark back grounds is shown in the top one of spoonrobots 2 shots were the back ground becomes 'full of clutter'. In fact a back ground can steel the shot when using the wrong background. IMO The standard of photography on this group is rising to almost pro levels but after you have pointed out the high contrast problem maybe the contrast could be lowered by using less intense light through shooting the flash through tissue or white fabric guys to produce a slightly grayed background.
Taking the gamma down on your monitor may help if it is also affecting your reading of print.
(added)
Most of the "less detail" on the black tools are caused when the background has overwhelmed the light reading by the camera and caused underexposure of the tool. As most camera phones and digital cameras have no manual exposure setting the way round it is to use a spot reading from the tool if available or lift the exposure in some program like Ifanview before posting it (you can also drag a photo yourself to the desktop and alter any settings yourself just to see what you are missing).

Dave

under lined has been altered or added
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:49:00 PM by damota »


us Offline Spoonrobot

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 04:56:03 AM

Black oxide, on the other hand, really shows up a lot better on my camera when placed on the wooden background.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/redmodels/DSCF1750sdvdv.jpg

Spoon, are you using automatic settings?

This appears to be a poor example to me, because the focus in the second picture is clearly on the background, not the tool.  The exposure and/or lighting are drastically different between the two pictures also.

EDIT:  Looking at it again, the focus looks good.  The lighting on the tool makes all the difference.

The camera is set to manual exposure settings but everything else is automatic. The lighting and placement relative were all the same. I took this picture a few times with the tool positioned differently and they all came out about the same. Focus was set to Macro and auto-focused on the tool.

At least with my camera, with the light set-up I have, white tends to pull the camera in too much and drown out the fine detail on black oxide tools.


Offline ringzero

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Re: Please, no more...
Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 06:34:55 AM
White back ground shots are a standard shooting style for any technical photo. That is the reason why light tents and light boxes are sold, not so much in your local photo equipment shop but pro shops will stock them.


It may be common for technical photos, but constrast problems militate against it for the average photographer.  I know one commercial photographer who recommends avoiding it if possible.

I see the same issues over and over in white background photos, sometimes even in catalogs printed on slick paper with high resolution photos trying to sell expensive stuff.


I think you could have made your point better if you had mentioned that high contrast images were a problem for you and others that may have the same problem as you have, rather than saying a style of photographing this type of image was wrong.


I asked people to please stop the white background pics because I believe that most of them are inferior, both technically and in an esthetic sense.

I wouldn't ask, nor would I expect people to conform their photos to suit anyone's particular visual problems.

And, I never said white background photos are wrong.

I believe most of them are inferior, if the purpose of the photograph is to convey useful information to the viewer.

If the purpose of the photograph is primarily 'artistic,' then anything goes.

.

N


 

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