Explorer minus hook?

[Lynn LeFey]

I was over at my friend's house last night, and he handed me an old SAK.

It's 4 layers thick, and has all of the tools of an Explorer, except the parcel hook. I tried the SAK Selector, and it only said Explorer and Yeoman.

I know it will probably take you guys 2 seconds to answer, but I can't find what this knife is. Anyone?

Thanks in advance for assistance to someone not at all versed in the ways of SAKs.

[Smaug]

It's just an old Explorer. Mine doesn't have the hook either.

I bet it also had the old gray magnifier and scissors with the screw, too. (like mine)

Great knives, if one can stomach it that thick.

[Mr. Whippy]

Pre-1991 Explorer.

Linkage:  http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Explorer

In the upper right hand corner of each page of MTO is a link to the SAKWiki.  Really the best single source of info on Vics and Wengers.

[Lynn LeFey]

Thanks guys.

Smaug, you got it in 1. Gray plastic for the magnifier and screw in scissors. Yup.

Mr. Whippy: Thanks. I'd never poked around on the SAKWiki before. Thanks for pointing me that way for future use.

[Lynn LeFey]

So, the knife I described here has been bequeathed to me. I don't like to be harsh on tools, but I have to ask: does the phillips on the modern explorer design suck less than the pre-1991 version? By this I mean, does it actually function as a phillips? The one on the knife I have simply won't fit in a phillips screw head.

I like this knife well enough. I like most of the selection of tools on it, and particularly like the magnifying glass. I don't like that phillips though.

[GigaHz]

Cybertool bits. One of these should fit?

[Steinar]

When I saw it was a problem with Philips, my first thought was “Here we go again, yes, Vic polishes their tools, yes, that gives worse grip,” and then it was an issue I've never heard before. I have used Vic Philips drivers a lot with no problem, perhaps there's a problem with metric vs US measurements? I doubt that to be the reason though, I would rather expect it to be simply the wrong driver for the job.

AFAIK, there's no functional difference between the newer and older Philips drivers, so they will all be as bad for you as the one you have. A question with some irony attached given the reason for your first Vic: Have you tried using the tip of the can opener? The shape is designed to fit in Philips screws.

[Lynn LeFey]

The problem is that the two sets of 'wings' that come off the head of the tool aren't at 90 degree angles from each other. It won't fit ANY phillips head screw. It is, in fact, utterly useless. I've seen this same issue before on cheap MTs and SAK knock-offs, and wrote it off as just crappy tools. I was really REALLY shocked to see it on an actual SAK.

[Smaug]

If they're not at 90° angles, then they were just bent by someone. I'm not sure if the Phillips drivers are hardened any more than the blades; probably not.

[Lynn LeFey]

No, they were just not cast or ground or whatever at the right angle. I took a pic, because I'm not sure what I'm saying is coming across clearly.

Sorry for any blurriness. My camera isn't the best unless there's a ton of light. The head looks more like an X than a +. The angles are just wrong, and they haven't been bent.

EDIT: the head on the Tinker, for instance, is at an exact 90 degrees. I can't get this head into even the large phillips screws on my door hinges, let alone something that would require a more precise fit. My guess is that it's off by at least 15 degrees.



Maybe this is a clearer view...

[Smaug]

I'll have to check my pre-'91 Explorer and other SAKs when I get home.

If they're not like that, you should send the knife off to Victorinox for replacement. Because you're right, that's useless.

[Lynn LeFey]

A little photoshop work tells me the angle is actually about 10 degrees off, not 15. But it's seriously significant. And I tested the head in a bunch of screws in my junk drawer, and it won't get purchase in any of them.

In this pic, the purple cross overlay shows what the head should look like, the green shows what it actually is.

[EZ822]

The modern Explorer don't have that problem. The phillips ''wings'' are at 90 degrees and properly fit into the screw head.

[Mercury]

I have a modern Explorer, and it does have the same angles you described here but I have never had it fail on a #2 phillips screw.  It just works for me every time, albeit a bit slippery due to the polish.  Nice camera work BTW, it was perfectly clear what you were talking about and after measuring mine with calipers I came to the same conclusion.  I can honestly say this is a first for me, I've heard complaints about Vic's polish but I've never heard that the phillips driver doesn't work at all.

[Lynn LeFey]

I stumped the SAK crowd with my new problem! 

Is there a prize involved? I mean, even just 'street cred' in the community? 

Mercury, if you checked yours with calipers, I'm guessing your measurements are pretty much dead on.

I'll await Smaug's feedback to see if this seems to be the norm on the tool, I guess.

[Smaug]

My old Explorer looks just like yours. But it fits four different types of #2 Phillips perfectly. So I take back what I've said elsewhere, namely that it doesn't fit #1 or #2 properly. It does fit #2 properly.

It might be more accurate to say that there are some #2s that it doesn't fit well, and you happen to have a bunch of them.

Here are the first round of pix:

[Smaug]

Second round of pix:

What kind of Phillips screws do you have in your junk drawer? Not that it should matter, but are they Pozi-drive?

What # are they? If they are #3 or #1, then I won't be surprised if they're not working.

One of these is even a combo head; flat and phillips, and it fit fine in that too.

[Lynn LeFey]

I have to be honest in saying I wouldn't know a #2 screw if it bit me in the face. I looked on the packages I had, and one is a #8 and none of the rest have numbers, or are random screws floating around in my junk drawer.

So, of these screws pictured, the Phillips on the Tinker would fit every single one. The Explorer would (finally found a few) fit the third and forth in the row from left to right, and nothing else. Even then, it didn't feel like it would hold if torque was put on it, because to fit in, there was so much gap that only the very edges of the screwdriver blades were making contact.

[Smaug]

There are two different numbers in screw sizes.

When I say #1, #2, or #3, I was talking about the head size. Of those you pictured, (from the left) the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th have #2 heads, and I would expect the Explorer's Phillips driver to fit them. The 6th one might be close; it looks pretty big. Not really a factor though, since it has a slot too.

The 3rd and 4th seem to be #3 head sizes, and are too big for a #2 screwdriver.

The 7th one seems to be a #1 head, and I wouldn't expect it to fit that one either. I could be wrong on that count though.

The other number in a screw is the shaft size. #s 6, 8, 10, and 12 are common here. #4 is tiny, but they do exist.

[Lynn LeFey]

Ah. Clear now. Well, then... no, this phillips doesn't fit a #2 head. Weird. I sent off a message to customer service with Victorinox. We'll see how that goes.

[Zed]

I have a modern Explorer, and it does have the same angles you described here but I have never had it fail on a #2 phillips screw.  It just works for me every time, albeit a bit slippery due to the polish.  Nice camera work BTW, it was perfectly clear what you were talking about and after measuring mine with calipers I came to the same conclusion.  I can honestly say this is a first for me, I've heard complaints about Vic's polish but I've never heard that the phillips driver doesn't work at all.

+1

mine looks the same but functions ok    im going to use it a bit more today and see, 

[dks]

People are always complaining about the polished Victorinox screwdrivers, especially on the Swisstools; usually in comparison to the more rough LM ones, that people then complain they rust more easily since they are bead blasted or sand blasted or something...

Anyway, I tried my pre-1994 explorer on my screw testing contraption and it works fine on all but the pozidriv screw (slight slippage).

of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

Here is a picture I took of the set-up from when I did the Lm Micra Vs Victorinox Minichamp review

[Steinar]

I stumped the SAK crowd with my new problem! 

Is there a prize involved? I mean, even just 'street cred' in the community? 

The “SAK crowd”, as you so informally terms followers of the one true way, believe in order and tradition, not “street cred”, superficial prizes that are soon forgotten or other such unstructured concepts. What you get is a file, reference c950771a36f87632c24f097e89adf59e, “Bekannte Unruhestifterin.”

Ordnung, Sauberkeit und Disziplin!

With apologies to any actually Swiss forum members and native speakers of German. 

[Lynn LeFey]

So, I've had this thing for a while. It has a few minor work-related defects, beyond the phillips issue.

There are a couple (likely easily repaired) nicks near the tip of the large blade. And the expected dings and dents.

I had considered sending it in, to see about having it (the phillips) repaired, but that's at least $15 with shipping included, and doesn't guarantee it will be fixed (although it would also be a crap shoot of possibly getting a free replacement).

But the truth is, I like the old style magnifier, and the scissors with a screw. I have tested the can opener as a phillips alternative, and am satisfied that it can perform light duty. The dedicated phillips not working is not necessarily a deal-breaker.

So... I think my money might be best spent in replacing the scales (both because they're banged up and because it doesn't have the pin hole), and getting the little eyeglass screwdriver and pin for this. Less costly would be just adding the eyeglass size screwdriver.

A good cleaning has improved my opinion of this Explorer greatly.

[Smaug]

I had considered sending it in, to see about having it (the phillips) repaired, but that's at least $15 with shipping included, and doesn't guarantee it will be fixed (although it would also be a crap shoot of possibly getting a free replacement).

I don't think it would be $15. You'd send a check for $5 to cover the repair. (per their return guidelines on their website) Putting it in a padded envelope and sending it would probably be $2 or so. Tell them the phillips doesn't fit most phillips screws you found, maybe even include a couple!

But the truth is, I like the old style magnifier, and the scissors with a screw. I have tested the can opener as a phillips alternative, and am satisfied that it can perform light duty. The dedicated phillips not working is not necessarily a deal-breaker.

I have both old and new style magnifiers. They both work equally well, and the new style has a bigger diameter lens. The scissors with the screw is a love/hate thing. If you don't set the tension and loctite the screw, it is forever coming loose, rendering the scissors useless. I finally Loctite'd mine, and it is wonderful now; better than the new riveted scissors. While the screwdriver tip on the can opener can do some light duty #2 phillips work, it is no substitute for a dedicated one. I think you should get that fixed. Ask them to replace the phillips driver, and sharpen the scissors and replace the scales, but please leave the magnifier and scissors. I bet they will do it.

So... I think my money might be best spent in replacing the scales (both because they're banged up and because it doesn't have the pin hole), and getting the little eyeglass screwdriver and pin for this. Less costly would be just adding the eyeglass size screwdriver.

Yeah, Cellidor scales are not very hard-wearing. But they sure look nice when they're new!

Reading back, I see that you didn't ask for opinions. But now you have them anyway, hehehe.

[Lynn LeFey]

Giving your opinion is actually helpful, and I appreciate it.

Now I've got more considering to do though.

[82brutus]

Can I just derail for a minute and say it's threads like this that make this forum great.  Helpful opinions, first hand knowledge and lots of pics... that's why I like it here. 

      

[Mercury]

Can I just derail for a minute and say it's threads like this that make this forum great.  Helpful opinions, first hand knowledge and lots of pics... that's why I like it here. 

      

Ditto.   

[Lynn LeFey]

Yeah, the folks here are awesome.

[ICanFixThat]

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