Been out tire kicking again....

[Mr. Whippy]

(Image removed from quote.)

Sorta like my old 88!


Glad to see the Jeep is safe!

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am heading out in a few minutes to check out a red four door Jeep at a dealership around the corner from me.  I found out that I don't need to look for the Max Tow package to get the 3500lb towing capacity since the difference between it and the standard towing package is just the 3.73 gearing in the rear end.  The 3.73 gearing is available as an option, so I have checked with one of the dealers to see what's available in town with the 3.73.  Turns out there are two- a red 2012 Sport and a 2013 Sahara.  The Sport has an automatic transmission while the Sahara has a six speed manual.

Also the red one only has a soft top, but I'm sure the dealer can work in a hard top if I ask really nicely...

Def

[derekmac]

Good luck, hope you can get a good deal on it!!   

[Grant Lamontagne]

You are forgetting rule #1 of car buying. When going to a dealership you do not gert a good deal.  They have over a century of experience taking your money, and dealerships are as crooked as they come, willing to screw you over for a dollar, and in such a way that you feel like sending in all your friends to get screwed too.

All you ever get from a dealership is an acceptible level of ass rape.  Keep that in mind whenever you buy a car and you should be ok.

That having been said, this was a nice truck- I haven't driven a new Jeep with a manual transmission until now and it was interesting.  The clutch has absolutely no feel to it- it drops down and comes up as if it wasn't connected to anything, although given that I stalled it a few times it must be.

It was a base model and I drove it around a bit and my wife and I kind of liked it.  Then we took it over to my boss' place and looked at his Sahara which has a lot more features.  Since I work out of my truck I thought I might like a few more creature comforts, and seeing it next to the Sahara reinforced that so I took it back to the dealership where they told me all of the things I thought I wanted (heated seats, power convenience and connectivity groups plus hard top in addition to the rag) could all be installed at the dealership level.  So, he is going to look into the costs to add all that stuff tomorrow and email me the results.

Meanwhile, the other dealership has the black Sahara that already has everything I want, and differs from my boss' Jeep only slightly, and the price on that one is only a few thousand more than this one, so if the addons cost more than the Sahara then that's the route I'll go.

Of course I'm in no hurry, so they'll either make me happy or I won't buy.  There's really no reason for me to give mine up.

Def

[derekmac]

All you ever get from a dealership is an acceptible level of ass rape.  Keep that in mind whenever you buy a car and you should be ok.
Def

Haha, how true is that.  Atleast we can make ourselves  we're getting a good deal, even though they're screaming "whos your daddy" when they're bending you over while you're signing the papers.   

By the time they add all the goodies, they'll probably want more than the Sahara, but you might be able to use that to your advantage at one of the stealerships, and save a little extra cash.

If you do end up getting one, you'll have to throw on a lift and 35" tires 

[Grant Lamontagne]

The sticker on the red one is $29,000 and it's a 2012 and all the features I want have to be added to it.  They say right off the bat they'll take $4500 off the price as part of this month's incentive.

The black one has everything (and more) in it already and is a year newer (2013) for $34,000.  About the only thing the black one is missing is leather (which I don't care for anyway) and the touch screen stereo/nav system.  It has the intermediate stereo with no nav system, but that's ok because I have a phone that does that and updates itself.

I also told them last night that the other dealership offered my $5k for my Jeep on a trade in.   

Def

[Grant Lamontagne]

My wife and I went out last night and test drove the black Sahara, but it looks like it's sold to someone else already so that one is out. 

It also looks like the other salesman was full of brown stuff when he told me all the things I wanted could be installed at the dealership level, which I'd thought was a little odd to begin with- after all, to switch from manual to power windows alone means swapping out the interior door panel or forever having a hole where the crank handle used to be.

As it turns out, there is a huge discount for phone company employees which we were unaware of and only discovered by accident.  This is important as my wife works for the phone company.  Because of this a Rubicon (top of the line) model is now within my price range, which means I won't need to worry about swapping the city tires for all terrain tires, a lift kit or finding one of the few Jeeps with a tow package since the Rubicon has all of that.  So, by getting the more expensive version I'll actually be saving money.

Also, there's a limited edition Moab model coming that is supposed to be available in yellow, so I may be hanging in and waiting for that one.  While I'm not too sticky on color, I would like to keep the yellow Jeep tradition alive, and the "Dozer Yellow" currently offered is hideous...

Def

[derekmac]

As it turns out, there is a huge discount for phone company employees which we were unaware of and only discovered by accident.  This is important as my wife works for the phone company.  Because of this a Rubicon (top of the line) model is now within my price range, which means I won't need to worry about swapping the city tires for all terrain tires, a lift kit or finding one of the few Jeeps with a tow package since the Rubicon has all of that.  So, by getting the more expensive version I'll actually be saving money.

Nice, you gotta like surprises like that!  The Rubi is really nice, with the Dana 44's front and rear, and locking difs front and rear, you'd have one hell of a capable rig!!

[lowtech]

Out of interest i just checked dealership prices on the Rubicon - It cosst 39400 Euro without foot mats. as a 4-door.
What will it run you in CDN, list price?

[Grant Lamontagne]

The Rubicon starts at about $30,000.  You can see all the prices here:

http://www.jeep.ca/en/vehicle_home.php?np=Wrangler&mc=WRG_SPT

Def

[dks]

  Also consider this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/9663948/For-sale-the-Land-Rover-the-Queen-commanded-from-the-back-seat.html

Your wife can seat in the back seat..   

[Grant Lamontagne]

Well, been a heck of a day.  I missed out on a good mud run, but luckily Derek was there to represent MTO in style!

I have pretty well decided that I'm getting a Jeep, but I figured I would give the other dealers a chance to show me what they had.  Settle in, this is a bit of a story...

Yesterday I went to Toyota to look at an FJ Cruiser.  The one they had on the lot had just arrived a day earlier and so was not licensed for the road yet, and the salesman asked me to come back tomorrow (Saturday) to test drive it, and I agreed.

My wife and I went to Toyota this morning for 11 as I'd arranged with the salesman, and we were greeted at the door by the greeter, who then told us the salesman would be with us in a few minutes.  After half an hour of walking around the showroom we left in disgust and went to Nissan to look at an XTerra.

The sales person (very attractive redhead) I had been dealing with before was busy with another customer so another sales person got us the keys to an XTerra with the Pro4X off road package- just what I wanted.  So, my wife and I took it out on the road.  It was really not a very nice truck.  It had plenty of guts but the interior looked like a snap together model kit and had almost no options and a price tag of $40,000.  That was way too much for a truck with no options, considering you can get an almost fully loaded Jeep Rubicon for that price.

So we returned the XTerra, thanked them for the ride and drove off.  Since the Ford dealer wasn't too far away and since my wife couldn't tell the difference between a solid axle and IFS we decided to stop in and see what the new Escape was like.  After talking to the salesman about the new Escape for 5 minutes I decided it was not the truck for me, but they did have some of the 2012 models left and they'd make a smoking deal on those.  So, we took out a fully loaded Ford Escape Limited out for a test drive and I enjoyed it greatly.  This thing had the back up camera, sensor package, leather, Microsoft Sync.... everything.  And, it was about $10k less than the FJ Cruiser and Nissan XTerra. 



Also while talking to the salesman I realized I'd forgotten my cell phone in the XTerra, so we test drove the Escape back to Nissan to pick it up!

It was a nice truck and the price was certainly right, but I am not convinced that the IFS is solid enough for the things I do at work, so we thanked the sales guy for his time and started to walk away when he asked us when we'd bought our VW.  We told him we got it a couple of years ago, he asked us who sold it to us and we told him who it was.... it turns out that our VW was his car!  We'd bought it as a demo, and he was the one demo-ing when he worked at VW and we'd bought it out from under him!  We had a good laugh and told him that we loved the car (which we do) and thanked him for giving it up to us!

When we finally left Ford we went for lunch and I called another Toyota dealer on the other side of town, told them what happened at the first one, said I was interested in looking at an FJ Cruiser and do they think they could have a salesman who could show it to me.  They insisted they would, took my number and email address and promptly sent me a list of sales people to ask for when we arrived. 

When we arrived there none of the salespeople we were supposed to ask for were available so they grabbed another sales person to help me out, which we appreciated.  He pulled the FJ up for us and it was about $1,000 cheaper than the one I looked at yesterday, plus it had a roof rack, which the more expensive one didn't.  We talked with the salesman for a bit who didn't seem to know too much about it- to the point where he told us the rear glass didn't open despite having gas struts on either side, a small handle for lifting and a latch to close it.  Still, he was a nice enough guy, and after I told him why I wanted a solid truck he told me to feel free to take it down any trails (as long as they weren't too bad!) during the test drive.

So, off we went, and to be honest, as much as I don't like Toyota, this was a nice truck.  The first thing I didn't like was the seriously bad visibility out the sides and back which makes shoulder checks impossible.  The blind spots stay blind spots in that thing, which I think is pretty dangerous.  Once we got it on the road I liked how big and robust it felt, and I liked the feel of the switches and dials, and the interior was pretty nice despite again having not a lot of options.  Then I went around a corner....

One thing I really liked about the FJ was the driver information center which includes an inclinometer.  I pointed it out to my wife and she started watching it to measure the amount of body roll on the truck, and she eventually became quite nauseated by it.  The suspension was way too soft, and the FJ just rolled far too much- I took it down a local winding road and the thing got us quite seasick.

I did have the opportunity to take it into a bit of mud, and while I didn't do anything serious, it did perform quite well.  I was pleased with it, but sadly the high price tag, body roll and seriously impaired visibility took it out of the running as well.

So, I'm still stuck on the Jeep, which I can get quite well equipped for around $33,000, has a lot less body roll and better visibility than the FJ, and seems better put together and better equipped than the XTerra.  The Escape, which I liked very much was the right price, but I just didn't feel it would be as tough as the Jeep, XTerra or FJ.

So, there we go- back to the Jeep yet again, with what I feel are actual qualitative reasons, not just me being a "Jeep Guy."

Amusingly enough, I got an email from the sales guy that didn' show up for our appointment, begging me to come back.  I don't know if I'll respond to him or not... and if I do it'll likely be a "thanks but no thanks" kind of email.

Def

[derekmac]

I've heard from others that the FJ has horrible blind spots.  You could always get blind spot mirrors to help with that though.

I've always like the Xterra, and would consider getting one. You're right though, they are pricey for what you get, and it's too bad about the interior quality.

You can't go wrong with a Jeep though.  Plenty of aftermarket support if you wish to upgrade, and an overall good platform.
Are you looking at getting a two or four door?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Grant Lamontagne]

It will definitely be a four door.

Have you driven an XTerra?  I had very high hopes for it and I liked it a lot... until I drove it.  I am very disappointed- it was so bad I feel like I've been cheated.

The first Toyota salesman is begging me to come in Monday and he sent me a comparison sheet for the three trucks I mentioned I was looking at.  He might as well have just told me to go buy a Jeep!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/762283/Grant%20Lamontagne.pdf

If you look at the comparison you see that in all the spots where Toyota "wins" they put a Toyota symbol.  There really aren't a lot of Toyota symbols, but if you look at some of the ones that are there I'm not sure I'd consider that a "win" especially in an off road vehicle.  GVWR and vehicle width for example are things where Toyota claims to be better, but I'd rather have a narrower, lighter vehicle since the maneuverability would be much better.  Plus they have some of the facts wrong- the Wrangler Unlimited has three 12V sockets plus a built in 2 prong electrical outlet, the Sahara has "Premium cloth" too, and the one I'm ordering will have a touch screen display.

The woman at Nissan also tried to tell me that the XTerra had a higher resale than the Wrangler... I said to her that we both knew that wasn't true, and I'm thinking of emailing her this link:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/7970531/the-general-forum/jeep-has-the-highest-resale-value-among-domestic-b/index.html

 

Kelly Blue Book and Motor Trend generally have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the car industry....   

Def

[derekmac]

Lol, that's funny! I can't say that I'd want to put a win for having the heaviest truck!

The only Xterra I've driven was one of the first years they were out, a 2000 I think it was.  I don't remember it being horrible though.  To bad they decided to cheap out on it!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[jzmtl]

You do know that FJ stands for Fake Jeep, right?  I like the look in a funky sort of way, but I can see where the visibility is a problem. I think the escape is build on focus platform isn't it? It was always meant to be a taller and more square passenger car.

[Grant Lamontagne]

The XTerra was very disappointing. It seemed very bland with lots of blank panels where you think something should be.... but it isn't.  It seemed like the interior was a snap together model kit and my wife and I both were reminded of the Kia Rio, which we thought was perhaps the cheapest, worst put together car we'd ever seen.  It wasn't as bad as the Kia, but it was the same kind of feel.  It had plenty of get up and go, but really that's about all the good I can give it.

As for the Escape being on the Focus platform, I think I've heard that but I can't say for sure. Either way, I have driven them before and I really liked the old body style.  They feel solid and look great. The new ones look like crap and the interior looks like it was left over from the set design from the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

One other drawback to the Escape was that it was All Wheel Drive rather than 4x4.  The XTerra has a dial for the 4x4 system which I did not care for and the Jeep and FJ actually have real transfer case levers which I do like. I like to be able to feel the gears coming together and knowing I'm in four wheel drive. I have no confidence in a dial or button and an LED on the dash telling me its in 4WD.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[jzmtl]

I've never seen the new escape before (maybe I have just didn't recognize them), so I googled it and you are right, ewww, it's worse than what Honda morphed the CRV into.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I was very disappointed when I saw what Ford had done. I guess us real truck people are dying out.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[Whoey]

http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/jeep/apache.html

looks nice

[dks]

I was very disappointed when I saw what Ford had done. I guess us real truck people are dying out.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

What would Hank Hill say... 

[derekmac]

I was very disappointed when I saw what Ford had done. I guess us real truck people are dying out.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Everything seems to be going to a car platform now, and even some vehicles that were fairly capable before, are now just slightly raised cars with AWD.

One other drawback to the Escape was that it was All Wheel Drive rather than 4x4.  The XTerra has a dial for the 4x4 system which I did not care for and the Jeep and FJ actually have real transfer case levers which I do like. I like to be able to feel the gears coming together and knowing I'm in four wheel drive. I have no confidence in a dial or button and an LED on the dash telling me its in 4WD.

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

I've also never been a fan of electronic transfer cases or electronic hubs.  I prefer the old and proven manual way of getting into 4x4.  Last thing you want when out on the trail is to have something in the electronics fail, getting you stuck in the woods!!

[dks]

I like automatic hubs.. You really do not want to be out locking them in the rain/mud etc. The manual ones are more reliable (no lock-unlock when you go back and forth), provided you lock them before you need them.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have never had a problem with the auto locking hubs, although I used to prefer manual ones when I wasn't as fat or lazy as I am now. 

My father in law's old GMC Jimmy had a push button transfer case and it malfunctioned. He would put it in four wheel drive, the light would come on and the front wheels wouldn't engage. He had no way of knowing that he wasn't in four wheel drive until it was too late.  Fortunately he never drives more than 6mph so he didn't have any problems but that could have been very dangerous for anyone else.

Def

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[derekmac]

Well to be honest, I've never owned anything with auto hubs. My old Bronco II had manual hubs (which on occasion I would forget to lock) and the Grand Cherokee's hubs are always engaged.

A buddy also had a Jimmy that would only engage when it felt like, and would also disengage when ever it wanted.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[dks]

just wait a bit longer.... 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I like that very much, but I doubt very much that I would be able to afford it!

Def

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'm at the Jeep dealer now looking at the final numbers and details. I'll probably place my order for a brand spanking new 2013 model today.  I've decided to go with Commando Green rather than Gecko Green. Sure it's not as bright but I feel it's more in keeping with the Jeep tradition.

Wish me luck!

Def

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[Mr. Whippy]

Two or four doors?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Four door- the two door never factored into my plans at all.  Here is a photo of one that should be pretty much exactly what I'm getting:



Def