Can someone explain the allure of Surefire?

[bobofish]

Gents,
About a year ago I asked for rec's of a small EDC. My criteria at the time were US/Canada/Europe made and good quality. Among the top choices were Arcs, Peaks and Inovas.
I ended up picking up an Inova x1 I believe it was (single cell AA) and I quite liked it. Unfortunately that little light fell out of my jeans watch pocket at a fight at a burger joint in Hollywood. I wasn't in the fight, I was helping my buddy the security guard there. Unfortunately as with so many things in Hollywood, the light sprouted wings and took off.

The one thing I kept thinking about that Inova was that it was a touch too big for me to REALLY EDC it. I already have too much in my pockets already, and just that one more thing banging around annoyed me. Now I carry a lighter in my watch pocket anyway, and besides I don't always wear jeans.

I keep thinking about buying an Arc, but I keep thinking that it's such a high price for such a little light that maybe I should consider something else. I'm a big follower of the EDC threads here and at Bladeforums, and I've tried adjusting my EDC somewhat based on some of those posts. In a sense I feel that I'm letting other people do the expensive and time-consuming experimentation for me.

As such, I keep seeing those damned Surefires pop up. I even handled one a few weeks ago, I don't remember the exact model, but the little one that says something like Executive Elite or some such. It was charming, but frankly even bulkier than the Inova, but it did have a pocket clip. I keep thinking that maybe I could clip it inside my right front pocket, or maybe even make a rare exception and put it on my belt. However, I don't think it was even an LED.

My needs are fairly modest. Mostly I just need a dog walking aid for the infrequent obstacle, occasionally I do remodel duty and don't have a big Mag or worklight at hand. Also I go fishing fairly frequently, and I'm the type that always leaves after dark. Frankly when I go surf or jetty fishing, it's often AT night. It's nice to have something smaller than a MAG when you're clamoring over rocks. I do however often use my mag on the jetty to deanimate fish. 

So set me straight; do I really need something bigger than an Arc, am I better suited to an Inova of some species? Also, what is it exactly about the Surefires? Is it prestige? Real utility? What? Do I need to fork over the better part of a C-note on a light that requires expensive obscure batteries? I should mention that whenever possible I use rechargeable batteries; I understand that there are rechargeables for the surefires, but I don't know much about where to find a charger.

That's about it.

[Grant Lamontagne]

For under $20, it's very hard to beat the Gerber Infinity Ultra.  It is made in China, so it may be out of the running before it begins, but I am really, really pleased with mine.  The quality is as good as any of the other lights I have, and it doesn't take up much space in the pocket.  Oh yeah, and it has a pocket clip too.  I have yet to even manage a scratch in the ultra super hard anodizing on it.    They are available for a very good price through our banner advertisers:

$19.09 at Hand-Tools.com

$17.99 at EDCDepot.com

I understand your desire to avoid Chinese made stuff, but you are really missing out if you don't try one of these. 

Ditto with a Fenix light- very good for the money, but a little more expensive than the Gerber.

I like Surefires, but I just can't see spending that much extra money for one when there is nothing at all wrong with the cheaper alternatives.  A year ago I would have suggested a SureFire if you were a cop or something, but now, even with my limited flashlight knowledge, I just don't see the point of spending that much extra for something with little or no benefit other than a USA stamp.

Someone told me a while back that a high end US flashlight company was actually selling rebranded lights made by Nuwaii for 2-3 times the cost.  I can't remember who the company was or even whether it was true or not but maybe someone else can fill that in.  If that's the case then you are not only supporting the Chinese, you are supporting criminals in your own country!

Def

[NutSAK]

Before I get into a big, overdone explanation of quality vs. economy, how important is it to you that you buy a North American/European product?

[bobofish]

If it is a US company rebranding lights made in China, that's nothing new. If it's a US company marking chinese made lights "Made in USA" then it's a major infraction and Leatherman was sued for far less. Whoever does know about that should contact the federal trade commission and lodge complaints with relevant agencies like the BBB and the local state justice dept. This is not something to be tolerated.

Well I won't go into my whole spiel, but the long and short of it could be brought to a few points.
A) I won't support a totalitarian state that has no respect for human rights and not only stifles free speech and freedom of congregation, but imprisons people for political prisoners and then uses those political prisoners in slave shops manufacturing crap that then pays for weapons that can be used against my country or its allies.
B) I won't support an economy that does not provide at least a bare human minimum of worker safety and organization standards.
C) I won't willingly support a company that offshores its work to a totalitarian state for the sheer reason of decreasing labor costs. If you are not able to make money while paying your workers fairly, you are in the wrong business.

Gerber is an especially egregious case for me, and pigs will have to fly while reciting the inferno in the original vulgare before I buy one of their products. They had a good thing going here in Portland and decided to offshore their labor to compete on price rather than quality.

Every manufacturing job that leaves the industrialized world takes roughly 6 jobs with it. It also increases current account deficits, foreign bond issuance and you may now notice currency volatility when taken to far enough extremes. All at a 10% savings on a product that lasts half as long and increases the tax burden of your children tenfold.

I won't go into it any further. I had no intention of making this into a political argument. I will not buy chinese when I have ANY choice. Frankly when I have no choice I often just don't buy and put the money in precious metals, t-bills or something else that actually accrues value. There is afterall enough crap in most peoples' houses to choke a dead horse.

And that "made in US" sticker, when legally and properly used, is still an arbiter of quality that few can match. Not 100% of the time, but very often. "Made in Canada" is something that a person should be fiercely proud of and not so quick to ignore for a small savings.

[Grant Lamontagne]

So that would be a "no" then....

While you do make some valid points, there is a significantly greater cost difference between Fenix, Gerber and Nuwaii and Surefire than 10%.  If it were 10% I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but the difference between a $20 light and a $100 light is pretty significant.  I'm sure that $80, properly invested today will offset the increased taxes my kids pay in 50 years!

But, that's beside the point.  Surefire is a good product, and if you want to spend the money on it, then I doubt you will be disappointed in it.  Just bear in mind that while it is assembled in the USA, it is likely of foreign components.  Microchips, switches, boards, LED's, o-rings and the solder to hold it all together is likely all made in China, Korea or other countries you aren't pleased with, so you'll be supporting them anyway.

I also do not see any quality differences between any of the high end USA made flashlights and the Gerber and Fenix lights I have, so I doubt they would crap out on my any sooner than the USA made ones.  To be honest, my Gerber Infinity Ultra had some issues after it had gone through the washer, but it seems to have recovered fine and you'd never be able to tell that it had been washed.

Of course if you do a search for "Taylor Cutlery" here on the forum you'll see that you and I share many thoughts on good old USA names that keep sliding to the East.  Still, a good product is a good product.

Def

[NutSAK]

OK, that answers that question well, and I respect your opinion.

The good news is, IMO, some of the best flashlights in the world are made in the US.  By limiting yourself to US-made flashlights, you are only limiting yourself from a standpoint of economy. 

Some great US products to consider:

ARC
Peak LED Solutions
Surefire
Novatac
HDS
Inova
Streamlight (some models US assembled, including Propolymers, Scorpions, Stingers, Strions, and Tacticals)
Elektro Lumens (hand made in small batches)

I'm not going to directly answer your question about the "allure" of Surefire because I've only owned a couple, but I can list a few factors why Surefire has many fans:

top-quality materials and components
top-quality finish (military-grade hard anodize)
large military contracts
lifetime warranty

I consider Novatac, ARC and Peak LED Solutions products on par with "Surefire Quality".  I own a Novatac 120P and an ARC-AAA and consider them both to be excellent choices for EDC.

[Spoonrobot]

It's hard to see the allure of the Surefire brand now that the flashlight world is in a tranistory stage. With the surge of new Chinese manufacturers in the past 3 years the hobby has changed and most users have more options and more lumens available to them for much less than past years.

But there was a time when Surefire flashlights were the brightest and most varied available, a lot of the allure piggybacks onto this notion that really doesn't exist anymore. And, of course, a large part of it is prestige and the thought of owning a light with a certain petigree.

However, once the Surefire 2008 LED models come out this may all be irrelevant.

[hawkchucker]

Well as a Surefire cheerleader, I can tell ya why they apeal to me.
1. American Design
2. American Made.
3 Customer service #1 (sent me a whole head for my g2l when I broke the lens dropping it 45 feet at work)
4. They are most likely bulletproof
5. They just rock!

[Spoonrobot]

I wish I could brag about the Surefire customer service too but I've never had a problem with mine. 






 

[hawkchucker]

If ya look at the situation. It was entirely my fault. I use lanyards on my tools, and I went without on the surefire.

When I called them I told the CS that it was my fault I would buy the pyrex lens for it. She stated that she was sorry it broke and that it would be nicer to send the whole head so I would not have to look at the scratches.

Try that with some other companies. Most flashlight companies make thier torches a disposable item. However Surefire just makes them to last a lifetime.

Plus look at CP forums. Most questions start with "how does the XXXX Compare to the surefire? And that should tell people a ton. They have already made up thier mind that the Surefire is the better torch but kinda figure if they can get simmilar results they will be as happy. I for one was one of the flock.

However once I got my first G2 I never looked back and really cannot part with my old G2 incan when I know I should. I most likely will end up just dropping in the LED head.

So all I can say is just treat yourself. Remember the Honda street cruzers are a V twin and run with the sound of a Harley, but it just aint a Harley. Just a wannabe. 

[WhichDawg]

sounds like bobofish worked for some of my old companies back in chicago! 

I carry several lights on/around my person (true flash-a-holic), keychain, pocket, several in the car
(b.o.b.s, glove compartment, etc), bike, tool bags, and of course the house.

NutSak gave a great list of american made lights, all very good
and you won't go wrong/dim with any of them.

Plain and simple Surefires quality, and customer service is how it should be and
you pay for it and the name.

good light-luck 

[bobofish]

So the surefire I was looking at in the store was an E1E Exec Elite. I see they have a new E1B Backup that is LED powered and not much bigger/heavier.

Is it worth my money and the extra space on my person to get a light like these rather than an Arc? As I said, my needs are relatively humble with regard to flashlights, but I certainly won't object to extra performance as long as it's not excessive.

I'm somewhat intrigued by the idea of being able to "blind" an adversary. I mostly walk my dog in the wee hours, and while (knock on wood) I haven't run into any seriously dangerous types, it wouldn't be bad to know that I had an out. I carry a knife, but would really rather not get in a knife fight.  More importantly, when in LA I walk my dog almost squarely in the middle of coyote country, and he's a spaniel sized white dog with nice muscular hind legs; in short a big juicy package of tasty bunnyrabbitness. We've had a couple of coyotes who were so hungry they followed us even after I confronted them. Most coyotes will scatter when a human claps and swears at them, but once in a while you get a real mangy one that hasn't eaten in a while. Also the places I go fishing often are cougar stomping grounds, and I've been growled at from the bushes more than once. Would a light as bright as a surefire blind and disorient such animals?

I keep forgetting to buy mace, but would the combination of a super bright light and mace or bear spray have any worthwhile utility over just having mace?

Also I have a good friend in LA that's a security guard. Is there any discount from the supply houses he shops at?

[Splat]

I've never owned a Surefire but I personally know a few Marines, cops and firemen who have/do. Yes, they can fail and do, but from what I gather it's a low percentage. If I was paying the prices their asking for their flashlights they better be 99% fail-proof. FWIW, I've owned the ARC-AAA premium for over a year and my Fenix LOD Q4 since Christmas. You can't go wrong with either but the Fenix is a lot brighter and is holding up well on my keychain. They've never let me down. For EDC I highly recommend a Fenix.

[hawkchucker]

Actually If you are looking to do more with outside and not carrying the thing all the time I would actually go for the G2L. Bigger, Brighter, and a 12 hr runtime. As for discounts I really never saw any for surefire. They seem to have the MSRP as a bible.

[bobofish]

By the way, at the risk of turning this back into a discussion of the various merits and demerits of labor price based globalization, a couple of you said that by limiting myself to North American and European products, I'm limiting myself from a perspective of economy. Economy as in price/performance not the big E-conomy.

I'm sure 99% of you eat chicken; would you buy Chinese chicken if you could get it for 50cents a pound for breast meat?
Now for a moment let's assume that a lab tells you the meat is perfectly identical to the chicken you normally buy, but there is a video on your local news about how the chicken was butchered and packaged in a Chinese Liberation Army factory using political prisoners under atrocious conditions. Would you still buy this chicken? If not, why would you buy a flashlight from China and not chicken? If yes, then I wish your health luck and hope you have a good doctor and priest.

Some of you will mention that much of the chicken and meat in the US is produced in plants that employ illegal immigrants under atrocious worker and health safety conditions. You are correct, and these things are illegal. You should do two things; buy chicken from companies that comply with the laws of this country, and demand that your elected representatives fulfill their obligations to the Constitution of the US and its laws and to you.

[Spoonrobot]

I'm not sure how much I subscribe to the notion of a light blinding an attacker to any worthwhile degree. I do feel a light will help the situation because it will show the person that you have a better idea of what they look like and may be packing more than just a light since most people think bright light = cop in their mind.

In regards to animals, I've shined my light on a variety of dogs and haven't ever seen any reaction other than continuing what they were doing while closing their eyes or staring at the light. I've never experienced an attacking animal so again, not sure of the effect. There are anecdotal stories on CPF and the Surefire page about bright lights stopping/detering animals and I can only imagine the brighter LEDs offered now would only help in this regard.

Is it worth my money and the extra space on my person to get a light like these rather than an Arc?

I think so, but I like to have very bright light when I need it. I've never been attacked by an animal for real but a few years ago I did get stalked by an errant kitty (didn't know it at the time). I was walking through a field at an abandoned school my friend had bought and heard rustling in the bushes to my left, about 20 feet away. I shined my EDC, an Inova X5, at the bushes to see what it was. Being that the X5 is a fairly dim floody light all I got back was the reflection of animal eyes. I quicked my pace when the eyes started moving and had a full-adrenaline dump (hate that term) when the unseen animal jumped out of the bushes and charged me. I stood my ground, with slightly shaky knees, ready to pummel the massive beast when I realized I was looking at a small grey kitten that wanted to play.

My face still gets red thinking about it, nowadays I like a bright light with a fair amount of throw. Makes me feel better poking around in the dark, doubly so when I walk my friend's dog. That, and the general utility of a brighter light adds exponentially more to your EDC than the size penalty.

I keep forgetting to buy mace, but would the combination of a super bright light and mace or bear spray have any worthwhile utility over just having mace?

Again, I think so. Whenever I carry something that is meant to be a force option I carry a light. I don't want to mace something that doesn't deserve it. Fox Labs makes a good mix, I managed to inhale a small amount of peripheral mist and did the whole panic breathing, coughing, snotting everywhere while blinded. If you get mace/OC I recommend going with the stream instead of the cone, it doesn't dissipate as much and won't expose you to as much backblast.

Also I have a good friend in LA that's a security guard. Is there any discount from the supply houses he shops at?

Probably not, Surefire uses minimum adertised pricing that they set. A few dealers will offer a lower price if you email but I'm not sure who they are. Your best bet is to find one on the BST forums over at CPF. Second hand Surefires go for disproportionately less than they should based on condition.

My personal recommendation is to get a Surefire E1B, it's small, well-made and has a simple and effective user interface.

Non-Surefire recommendation is the Fenix P1D-CE or P2D. These lights are tiny, have excellent runtime and varied modes depending on your use and are fairly cheap for the brightness/quality. And if you like the size/features you can always upgrade to a better product like the Surefire. ( )

http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p1d.htm

http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p2dce.htm

[Anthony]

and demand that your elected representatives fulfill their obligations to the Constitution of the US and its laws and to you.

haha that's a good one!  My "top elected officials" have bypassed Federal law and Providence is becoming a "Santuary City" (typed as it sounds from a rep who can't speak English that well.)  We had another rep here try to outlaw sale of Saran Wrap to those under the age of 18.  I swear to GOD itself, that woman does not understand the English language, but she makes laws for me.  If I called her and "demanded" something, she woulden't understand what I was saying.

*ahem* Yes, flashlights.  Surefire doesn't really grab me; I'd rather buy a Streamlight for a lot lower price that runs on regular AA batteries, has a long runtine, and is bright.  That's enough for me.

And I don't buy chinese products if I can help it.  I like sticking it to people I don't like, and that's just my little way of sticking it to communism.

[bobofish]

That's not a bad point with regards to the mace stream type and being able to see what you're spraying. My dog's a Spaniel mix and has good gun dog instincts; he flushes and retreats, and if the thing he's flushing doesn't move he keeps going in and out...bark retreat bark retreat. It would be good first of all to have something that doesn't incapacitate him, or worse make him a coughing, sputtering panicking mess just when I need the two of us to run away. It would also be useful to have something bright enough to see clearly what's going on and where I have to spray.

I have to say though, I'm just so reluctant to carry a bulky flashlight that I keep thinking about getting a AAA like the arc. I suppose when I really think about it though, my interest is really in an EDC or something that is nearly EDC. In LA I often bring my 2D or 3D mag with me not just for light but also as a potential bludgeon that the LAPD won't assume is an intended lethal weapon. My neighborhood's safe, but in that place you never know.

When I go steelhead fishing I already have enough crap to lug around through the trails, and I need something small and bright. When I go out on the jetty, I have a lot of crap with me as well, and as a bonus I have to be able to be quickly mobile in case of a breaker over the rocks, and I usually don't have a stable surface to put a light on. Therefore I need something smaller than the mag even though I occasionally use it as a bludgeon against toothy lingcod.

And when I walk the dog, even though sometimes I carry the big mag just in case of any baddies that cross my path, frankly mace would probablly be a lot more effective and easy to explain to an overworked police officer after an incident. Also when I'm in polite society I don't usually need much of a flashlight. I suppose I could always leave the surefire in the car and just keep my mag solitaire on me.

I keep wanting something for 100% EDC but maybe in reality I need something like a surefire and I will continue to either carry the solitaire or eventually pick up an Arc. So therefore a solitaire or better an Arc for 100% EDC and the surefire for maybe 50-80% EDC?

Thoughts? I've been wanting the least possible weight and bulk and that led me to the Arc, but maybe what I'm wanting is a little more than it can handle for those dog walking emergencies, etc.

[NutSAK]

By the way, at the risk of turning this back into a discussion of the various merits and demerits of labor price based globalization, a couple of you said that by limiting myself to North American and European products, I'm limiting myself from a perspective of economy. Economy as in price/performance not the big E-conomy. 

Yes, price/performance.  You can get equal or better performance, with a lower quality build, from other, foreign, companies.  The Fenix P2D Q5 is a great example, as Spoon mentioned.

As far as the political/global economy aspect of the whole thing, I won't comment, and I don't think this is the appropriate place for it.

If I were to buy a Surefire at this time, I would by an L1 Cree.  I'm an LED guy, for the simple reason that they're much more reliable than incandescent bulbs.  However, I don't feel the size of the L1 is quite convenient enough for EDC, so I choose Novatac. 

An ARC-AAA is just about the most reliable light that you can put in your pocket, and it runs off easily found AAA batteries (everywhere).  You're not going to blind an assailant with it, but it's plenty of light for most tasks.  You will not be disappointed spending $40 on an ARC.  I can almost assure you of that.  The Solitaire doesn't even fit into the equation, so I won't comment on that either.

[hawkchucker]

Corrugated

Dont forget Buddie Cianci!!!!!!!

[bobofish]

How does the Arc compare to the other flashlights mentioned in brightness? For example I'm familiar with the Inova X1 and to some extent the other X's.
I believe Arc's new P is an 11 lumen wonder...not having handled or even seen any Arcs in the wild though, what can I expect?

[bobofish]

Also, looking briefly at the Novatac website, they are awefully compelling. Are these the kind of quality that will last many years? Being polycarbonate, are the lenses scratch and gunk prone, or is that a false assumption on my part?

[parnass]

How does the Arc compare to the other flashlights mentioned in brightness? For example I'm familiar with the Inova X1 and to some extent the other X's.
I believe Arc's new P is an 11 lumen wonder...not having handled or even seen any Arcs in the wild though, what can I expect?

I have found the Arc AAA-P DS version to be slightly brighter, but bluer in tint than the current 2 watt version Inova X1.  I greatly prefer the Arc AAA-P DS because its 4-hour battery life is twice as long as the X1 and the flashlight is physically so much smaller and lighter weight.

That said, I you might want an even brighter flashlight.  Surefire flashlights are all larger and brighter.  Consider strongly getting an LED model instead of an incandescent model.

I am delighted with the Surefire Cree E1L and E2L flashlights.  They require somewhat uncommon CR123A lithium batteries, but the battery life is several hours at full brightness.

By the way, I agree with your preference for American made goods.

[jzmtl]

Novatac lense is pretty recessed, if you take some precautions like dont keep it in pocket with keys, or wipe it with paper you should be fine. Besides, a new glass lense is what, $5?

[bobofish]

So in other words there are no worries of a Novatac lens melting if I leave it clipped to my cap for a while?

Also, it seems Novatac endorses the use of rechargeable batteries. Surefire's website says they do not endorse this. I've been dinking around the web for a bit and it seems that some rechargeables work on flashlights, and some explode.
What's the verdict on rechargeables on Surefires?

And further more, does anybody happen to have an idea where I pick up a reputable charger and a couple of batteries?

And one more edit, is there any utility in the "disorienting strobe" feature on the Novatacs for animals? The consensus seems to be that the regular beam of one of these lights may or may not affect an animal, but what about blinking brightness?

[NutSAK]

There are definitely no worries about melting the lens.  LED lights don't project heat out with the light, like incandescents do.  The heat produced by an LED is transferred through the heatsink behind it, then to the metal body of the light.  In order for the lens to melt, the body of the light would have to get extremely hot, at which point holding onto the light would be a greater issue than the melting lens.

Polycarbonate really is the best type of lens for a light like this, IMO.  Yes, they scratch up a bit after time, but they are virtually shatterproof.  In an impact, the body of the light will bend before that 2mm thick lens will break.  As jzmtl mentioned, the lens is well recessed, so scratching it would be difficult.

Li-Ion batteries have a bit of a reputation for exploding (vent with flames), but this only happens under certain avoidable conditions.  The danger occurs when the batteries are over discharged or over charged.  Newer "protected" batteries have a circuit in them that prevents both of these conditions and are quite safe.  The problems inherent with these types of batteries are also much greater in a light that runs on more than one battery.  This is because someone could accidentally run two batteries of different charge level in the light, which would cause one battery to start to charge the other, possibly leading to the problems mentioned above.  Single CR123a battery lights are thus safer.

A good source for batteries is Lighthound.com.  I recommend their "AW" brand protected batteries, and they have some good chargers there also.

I'm not sure if the strobe works on animals or not...

[jzmtl]

I've stared into novatac's strobe in a dark room, didn't really have any effect on me besides being annoying. Even a brief flash from highest level made me see spots longer. Guess the strobe rate they chose didn't have much effect, at least on me.

[NutSAK]

I've stared into novatac's strobe in a dark room, didn't really have any effect on me besides being annoying. Even a brief flash from highest level made me see spots longer. Guess the strobe rate they chose didn't have much effect, at least on me.

Actually, I think that's really the point of the strobe.  The strobe is not there to make an assailant see spots, it's there to disorient.  Imagine the strobe moving around in a guys hand while being pointed at your face, while his other hand is swinging at you with a crowbar.

[bobofish]

Forgive me for my obtuseness, or lack of knowledge on this question:

Does the red filter for the Surefires offer me a lot of utility for night fishing or long walks in a big park?

The way I'm thinking is that I could pop the red filter on when there's some moonlight and I want to just occasionally glance at something without ruining night vision. Also maybe even more usefully there's a couple of nice big parks nearby with long trails. Often you can get through without any lights as long as you have good eyes, but from time to time there are obstacles that need to be lit. Unfotunately that then spoils your night vision and you either need to stand around for a while to get it back, or just keep using the flashlight.

So bottom line: I'm very familiar with darkroom redlights, not so much on flashlights. I assume it's the same principle, but....

In my mind crazy thoughts are also popping up about how it might be useful once in a while to keep a flashlight with a red filter on it for when I'm in the darkroom and need a quick burst of light.

Another question: among the Surefires, the E1B seems to be a good option. However, is this a light that only has a hot spot, or is there some good spill around it?

[NutSAK]

It sounds like you have some good ideas for the red filter.  Those types of uses are exactly what they're for.

I have been told that green light works best for night fishing, as it doesn't spook the fish as much as other colors.