Any Jeepers out there?

[dks]

the diesel, at least in the US seems to be a 3l V6, which is not really tax friendly here.

fiat has several smaller diesel engines, some are not that bad.

[Grant Lamontagne]

How can they be good?  They are Fiat? 

Seriously, I think Fiat is doing well to keep the Fiat people away from the Jeep Wrangler as much as possible.  The latest round of Jeep updates (JL) are actually quite good, and largely are the things Jeep owners have been asking for for a long time.  But, as we've seen from the new Cherokee (which I actually like) and the Renegade (which I hate, and is basically a gussied up Fiat 500x) the "real Jeep guys" don't want to see Fiat parts anywhere on their Jeeps.

I personally welcome our new Italian overlords..... but they have to tread very lightly or risk losing the only brand in the Chrysler family that consistently makes money.

Def

[dks]

https://youtu.be/R9ZxDF3ZLr0

https://youtu.be/IAcVDLB5xwE

[Grant Lamontagne]

Crossing an ankle deep stream is actually not as impressive as it appears in that video.... I've done worse than that in my old Sunfire.   

After Hurricane Juan passed through in 2003 I drove the Sunfire through a puddle that brought water up over the hood.  I'd say a foot and a half to two feet deep.  I don't recommend doing that in a Sunfire, but we came out the other side.

Plus I know guys that could probably make it through Moab with a G-Whiz, and i know people that can't make it out of a clear parking lot on a summer day with a Humvee.   

The fact is, Jeep owners are a remarkably nearsighted lot, and if it isn't Jeep then it is crap.  You should have heard the grumbling when Jeep dared to put the 3.8L engine into Jeeps instead of continuing with the 4.0 that had been in Jeeps forever.  Sure the 3.8L engine was terrible in it's own right, but no one was willing to give it a chance because it was a "minivan engine" taken from the Caravan.  And that was at least a Dodge engine.  Can you imagine how an engine built by foreigners is going to go over?   

The only reason the 3.6L Pentastar has been finally accepted as a suitable Jeep engine is that it is actually a really, really good engine.  It was released in 2011 and has been on Ward's 10 Best Engines 5 times in the seven years it's been out.

Def

[dks]

I have gone up some dangerous looking roads, conquering them in my 4x4, only to find someone with a 2wd diesel van at the top..

[Grant Lamontagne]

You and me both....

Jeep logic is funny when you think about it.  Jeep guys say that the Jeep is the best off road vehicle out there, then spend tens of thousands of dollars making it more off road capable, but my theory is that if you started with a Geo Metro and spent the same amount of money on lift kits, big tires, engine modifications etc you could have a rig that does just as well off road.... 

Def

[dks]

I suspect there was some Jeep input in this Fiat....

https://youtu.be/cgn2AG3WY-8

Reminds me of Land Rover where each brand owner gets some of the knowledge and then sells it..

[Grant Lamontagne]

Given how many owners Chrysler has had over the years, it's a surprise that there are any assets left to steal.  Especially after Mercedes took the best designers.

I'll admit, that Panda 4x4 does look halfways decent- it reminds me a lot of my old Tracker.  It could go places the Jeeps couldn't because it weighed about half as much as a Jeep.  And, in that video, I'd have taken the Defender over the Fiat any day of the week.  Of course, as an accused "Jeep Guy" if I had to choose, I'd take the Land Rover over my Jeep too. 

Of course the 410mm of water fording ability sounds impressive until you do some math- that's less than a foot and a half of depth, and I'd say that there isn't an American made SUV that wouldn't safely handle that much.  And, in fact, many cars, as I mentioned above, and let's face it, a Sunfire isn't exactly a high quality vehicle.  By comparison, Jeeps are good for 30 inches (762mm), Land Rover Discoveries are good to 20 inches (508mm) and the Range Rover Sport is good to 33 inches (838mm) compared to the Panda's 16 inches.  Even the Jeep version of that Panda (aka Renegade) is good to 19 inches or 482mm.

If they are learning from Jeep, they need to start taking better notes.   

Def

[derekmac]

I think they hit the nail on the head (for the most part) with the new JL.  For the 95% of the people that will buy one with no intentions of ever taking it off-road, but want the off-road look, it's damn near perfect!

For the 5% that will beat it in the woods, it does have its issues.  LED's in the front fenders that WILL get smacked against trees, not a great idea.  Rear tail lights with expensive sensors that stick out past the body, guess what, they'll get hit too.

I'd love to have a diesel Sahara as our family vehicle though.  We love our Cherokee, but a diesel Wrangler would be awesome!

[dks]

https://youtu.be/iVy17jx770U

[MadPlumbarian]

Went out today and came across this guy, fig you’d get a kick out of it..
JR

[ThundahBeagle]

My big old Chevy Blazer (my dog in my avatar is sitting in it) has a cracked frame and will be junked. For years now I've been bouncing back and forth between a big old Blazer (full sized) and a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

It's back to the WJ for me.

I'd love a wrangler, preferably a CJ or a YJ (87-95), I just can't put both kayaks and bikes on one without an additional luggage rack, which is a given on a WJ.

I'm planning on lifting the WJ 2 inches over stock, putting some only slightly bigger tires on it, and running it that way. I'm not a serious off roader, but want to be able to ride trails without bottoming out, and glide over a foot of snow as easily as I could in my stock Blazer.

I'm sorry, but a $1000 Craigslist Cherokee is more capable than the new Fiat Cherokee. I test drove one. It would make a nice Nissan Murano Jr.

Placing one wheel on a ramp, it cannot make it as high up as an old Cherokee. It is to pretty, and not near as rugged or capable. What a piece of junk. The angle of approach is so damn low what do they hope to straddle?

Give me a metal dash board, two shifters, and rubber mats so I can hose the dog hair and dirt out of it after downshifting manually to get up that hill.

Even soccer mom's who used Jeep Cherokee in the 90'same did so because of the capability to drive in bad road conditions that came along with a hell of a good 4x4 off road goat.

Please God, please let some wealthy American company buy Jeep and return it to what it has always been - a kickass American 4x4 vehicle that is no frills. Function over form, please!

[Grant Lamontagne]

You are right... sort of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJLH0gokWwE

The Wrangler and the Grand Cherokee are still "real" Jeeps, and the new Cherokee is not bad for what it is.  No, it isn't the old Cherokee, but it is still more off road capable than most SUV's out there, which admittedly isn't saying much.  The rest of the line are aimed more mass market, and yes, you probably are better off with a $1000 Craigslist Cherokee than a new one if you are the kind of guy that wants a rugged vehicle.

Don't blame Fiat for all of the soccer mom vehicles with the Jeep name on them- many of the "everyday" style Jeeps have been around a lot longer that Fiat's ownership papers.

Amusingly enough, I parked next to a Fiat 500 the other day at a shopping center and I was going to take pics of it and my Jeep and post them on IG with a tag saying "two Fiats!" as a joke. 

Of course, if one wanted to get into details, my JKU is a 2013, and also predates Fiat's ownership, and therefore the comment would be erroneous, even though a Jeep salesman tried to tell me 2013 was part of the Fiat era.  You'd think that a guy who makes his living selling Jeeps would at least have his facts straight.   

Def

[ThundahBeagle]

Def,

I agree that the Wrangler is still a real SUV. And to some extent, the Grand Cherokee is, also. I just feel that when we have to qualify the Cherokee as "not bad for what it is", something is lost. Something important.

They could have called this new garbage Cherokee any other name, and brought back a proper Cherokee.

Dear Jeep,

Please take a page out of the Toyota 4Runner playbook - at the very least in terms of clearances and angles of approach and departure.

You are also right that this trend toward wimp mobiles started years ago. The bumpers and air dams are so blasted close to the ground on today's SUV's, I feel like an old codger ranting.

So, I keep buying older SUV's and try to keep them in good shape.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree with you- something is indeed lost when you have to qualify it like that.

And yes, you are absolutely right that the wind dams and other bits are too close to the ground- in fact I see so many of those torn off because of winter that I have to wonder why they even exist.   

But then there's the flip side- my Jeep is terrible to drive.  The JKU is worlds better than the TJ, but the suspension is still stiff and hitting bumps at highway speeds causes it to flutter a bit and crosswinds blow it all over.  Most folks don't want to deal with those kinds of issues, especially when the full transfer case (versus an AWD system) just adds weight and buggers up fuel economy.  Most people don't even know the difference between 4WD and AWD and think they are just different names for the same thing.

Def

[ThundahBeagle]

I agree with you- something is indeed lost when you have to qualify it like that.

And yes, you are absolutely right that the wind dams and other bits are too close to the ground- in fact I see so many of those torn off because of winter that I have to wonder why they even exist.   

But then there's the flip side- my Jeep is terrible to drive.  The JKU is worlds better than the TJ, but the suspension is still stiff and hitting bumps at highway speeds causes it to flutter a bit and crosswinds blow it all over.  Most folks don't want to deal with those kinds of issues, especially when the full transfer case (versus an AWD system) just adds weight and buggers up fuel economy.  Most people don't even know the difference between 4WD and AWD and think they are just different names for the same thing.

Def

Sad but true. People no longer seem to want manual transmissions,  nor do they want manual transaxles. Like you said earlier, they want the truck to drive like a sports car.

When I drove cars (' 87 Honda Crx, '94 Honda Accord, '06 Honda Civic Si) they were mostly standard shift. Even my first pickup truck was standard. Moving to the big Blazers of the '90's, it was difficult to find one in standard shift, but at least I had the 4x4 shifter.

The '99 Grand Cherokee I will be in does have a 4x4 shifter for the Selec-Trac, thank God for that, but I think the new ones are some sort of dial.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I hate the dials for more reasons than I can say....

Def

[ThundahBeagle]

I'm officially a Jeeper again. Re-registered the old Grand Cherokee I had before I had the Thundah Blazer.

Tomorrow I will check in with the local auto glass folks, because a 2×4 was pushed exhuberantly from the hatch until someone heard a little bit of glass.

Shocks and springs are tired. Since I'm replacing them anyway, this is an opportunity to get taller springs and shocks and do the 2" lift. That seems to be a respectable lift without having to changet out every other peice of hardware under the Jeep. Stopped at Advance Auto Parts today. They have the 2" lift shocks, but the fronts only. So I will have to order some. Same with the springs.

Rancho? Rough Country 2 and a half? Fat Bob? What does all the WJ crowd suggest?

May as well do sway bar links since I'm in there.

And the brakes at all 4 corners while the wheels are off.

Then I'll order up some 31" tires and that should do it.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks

[Grant Lamontagne]

Just lift the front and grip the steering wheel really hard and people will think you are going really, really fast.   

I don't know about the WJ, but when it comes to Wranglers many guys try to steer clear of Rough Country lifts.  I haven't had one myself, so I really can't comment too much but I do know a guy that didn't even get a year out of his Rough Country lift kit before swapping it out for a different one.  At least one of the shocks was totally beat and he wasn't a hardcore wheeler.

Def

[ThundahBeagle]

Just lift the front and grip the steering wheel really hard and people will think you are going really, really fast.   

I don't know about the WJ, but when it comes to Wranglers many guys try to steer clear of Rough Country lifts.  I haven't had one myself, so I really can't comment too much but I do know a guy that didn't even get a year out of his Rough Country lift kit before swapping it out for a different one.  At least one of the shocks was totally beat and he wasn't a hardcore wheeler.

Def

So I am reading on a number of forums. I reached out to Kolak and am getting some advice from him. He's some sort of Jeep performance guru out in US Mountain time zone somewhere.

He is suggesting Iron Rock Off-road.  His 3" lift suggestions are tempting but put me in a whole different spending and replace - parts bracket.

So I'm settling back to a 2" lift, and he's been very helpful in the decision making process.

[ThundahBeagle]

I own a 1998 ZJ, 4.0, NP242, my daily driver. My Dad has a 1994 ZJ, 5.2, 268,000 miles, retired now since he got a newer SUV.

The ZJ was originally intended to be the next Cherokee. It tested very well, and opinion ratings in focus groups were very high. But when focus groups were told it would be replacing the Cherokee,  it was all pitchforks and torches. Nobody wanted the Cherokee replaced, but they did love the ZJ. Hence the ZJ was instead marketed as a separate model and the GRAND Cherokee was born.

[derekmac]

We have a 2015 Cherokee, and love it.  It's a run on the mill SUV, and is not built or intended to be an off-roader (including the Trail Hawk IMHO).  What it is is a great family hauler, and very comfortable and nice to drive.  Also, most people buying them have no idea what the old Cherokee is, nor would they care.

I had a 2002 WJ that I lifted 4" (Rough Country  ) and put 32's on it.  I slowly built it over 4ish years, and when it got to the point of being built to how I had pictured it, it was time for a change.  So I bought a 2005 TJ Rubicon.

Now you can call me all the names you want, but I believe the TJ is the last of the "real" Jeeps.  Now of course that's just my opinion.  I think a Jeep should be something small, nimble and easy to work on.  JK's and now JL's have far too many electronic gizmos, computers and sensors in them.

A CJ on coil springs would actually be my ideal Jeep.  Stupid simple, and with coils, half decently comfortable.

[ThundahBeagle]

We have a 2015 Cherokee, and love it.  It's a run on the mill SUV, and is not built or intended to be an off-roader (including the Trail Hawk IMHO).  What it is is a great family hauler, and very comfortable and nice to drive.  Also, most people buying them have no idea what the old Cherokee is, nor would they care.

I had a 2002 WJ that I lifted 4" (Rough Country  ) and put 32's on it.  I slowly built it over 4ish years, and when it got to the point of being built to how I had pictured it, it was time for a change.  So I bought a 2005 TJ Rubicon.

Now you can call me all the names you want, but I believe the TJ is the last of the "real" Jeeps.  Now of course that's just my opinion.  I think a Jeep should be something small, nimble and easy to work on.  JK's and now JL's have far too many electronic gizmos, computers and sensors in them.

A CJ on coil springs would actually be my ideal Jeep.  Stupid simple, and with coils, half decently comfortable.

After test driving the new Cherokee,  I came to the same conclusion. A nice Nissan Rogue or something, comfy, all that, but it hurts to see that done to the Cherokee name. They could have brought it to market under some other name and it'd be fine.

Ya just can't tell me that nobody wants a tall, capable 4x4 SUV as long as Toyota keeps making the 4Runner like this.

I've enjoyed reading about your WJ Grand and seeing the videos of it here. It gives me hope for mine. I'm starting out with two inches of Iron Rock Offroad coil lifts with new coil isolators, and Pro Comp series 9000 shocks. New Moog sway bar links and brakes for all four, and will see how that rides for a bit.

I can see myself getting a YJ at some point, but yes, the holy grail of Jeeps is the old CJ. And I can agree that some nice coils under one of those would make it nice.

Also agree with you about the TJ being the last of the greats. Too much electronics in the new Jeeps. Especially for a company known for being cheap on wire lengths in harnesses and such. Most of the time a Jeep power window craps out is because the negative wire between the door and the jam has cracked, because they are too short for the distance.

Funny to see how many people look down on the WJ, when compared with the CJ, YJ, and TJ, the WJ has the same Dana 35 diff in the rear and Dana 30 up front, the same motor, longer wheelbase, wider track, more storage space, more towing capacity, and can do it with a little bit of style.

It is the Star Trek The Next Generation of the Star Trek world. In many ways a superior product, but will never be as recognized as the original

But it's small wheelwells limit the tire size, so despite its breeding and muscle, it starts from a disadvantage.

[Greg Jones]

I was heavily involved with the local Jeep club for a number of years, I don't own it anymore but here's a couple of shots of my TJ on a trail at one of the factory sponsored Jamborees

[ThundahBeagle]

Greg, if you don't mind me saying, that's a rather "slick (er)" looking Jeep in those pics.

Eh? See what I did there?

[ThundahBeagle]

My WJ pre- lift

[ThundahBeagle]

.

[ThundahBeagle]

My WJ post-lift

[ThundahBeagle]

.

[ThundahBeagle]

This is with a combination of new Crown Automotive and new Moog coil spring isolators, all 8, plus Iron Rock Off road coils to bring it 2" above stock. Pro Comp 9000 series shocks and stock Moog anti-sway bars.

By the way, Kolak on the Jeepforums is the guy to speak with if you are looking to modify your WJ at all. He just knows them inside and out and suggested my mods here. He is out of Arizona. Don't know if he can service Canada customers but I wouldn't be hesitant to contact him. (Sorry Mods, I don't mean this as an advertisement) I'll be doing so for some other parts. I am very happy with Kolak's suggestions and his customer service.

I am doing this in stages, so i havent done everything that has been suggested yet. As a result...A pucker-inducing wobble does develop, but only after hitting patches of pot holes at highway speeds. I can keep from doing that until I get a new Panhard rod, tie rod ends and steering damper. That's my next stop. Then tires and an alignment.

Sure it's only August, but I'm trying to get all this done during hurricane season and before the first snow flies.